Anyone fearful of the Mark of the Beast?

[Hizikyah]

I think his bride (the church) might be Raptured away before the mark is implemented? Therefore, there is no worry for us.

Even if that is not so, I'd rather take the death penalty option then to get the mark, which guarantees hell.

Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

seven trumpets - at the last trumpet

1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

 

[Jackson123]

I think his bride (the church) might be Raptured away before the mark is implemented? Therefore, there is no worry for us.

Even if that is not so, I'd rather take the death penalty option then to get the mark, which guarantees hell.

no, rapture happen after antichrist not before

2 Thessalonians 2
[h=3]The Man of Lawlessness[/h]2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."

Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

seven trumpets - at the last trumpet

1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

Morning/Evening Hizikyah,

1 Cor.15:51-53/1 Thes.4:13-18 - The gathering of the church

Revelation 8:15 - Are trumpet plagues of wrath upon a Christ rejecting world

Matt.24:29-31/Rev.1:7/Rev.19:11-21 = Is the second coming where Christ returns to the earth to end the age.

The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

There are seven bowl judgments which follow the seven trumpets, so the scripture above is not saying that the end takes place at that time. What it does mean is that the ownership of the world and its nations are reverting from Satan back to God and mankind. For when Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the authority over the nations was given to Satan, but through Christ's sacrifice He redeemed everything.

In support of this, after the 7th trumpet is sounded Satan and angels are thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth, where at which time he knows that his time is short because he knows that he only has 3 1/2 years left before Christ returns to end the age where he will be locked up in the Abyss (Rev.20:1-3)

At the sounding of the 7th trumpet their is Pre-rejoicing prior to Satan and his angels being cast out (Rev.11:15-18)and there is post rejoicing after they are cast out Rev.12:10-12.

That said, the sounding of the 7th trumpet is not the end of God's wrath, as there are seven bowl judgments left, which complete God's wrath.

Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven is apart of the on-going process of redeeming the earth and everything in which Jesus accomplished.

As previously stated, Jesus does not return until after the 7th bowl has been poured out, as demonstrated by the Lord's interjection after the 6th bowl has been poured out as found in Rev.16:15. It is not until after the 7 bowl judgment that Jesus returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom, as described in Rev.19:11-21.

 

[blue_ladybug]

Doubtful that the mark is a microchip or tattoo.. too easy to take it out of the hand..

 

[Rokurac]

Doubtful that the mark is a microchip or tattoo.. too easy to take it out of the hand..

When you think about it, it makes little to no sense. Why wouldnt the antichrist just tag everyone while they are sleeping? Easy way to damn everyone to hell.

 

[Ahwatukee]

no, rapture happen after antichrist not before

Hello Jackson123, It is because you are not understanding the scriptures that you say the gathering of the church takes place after the antichrist and not before.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him = The gathering of the church.

The Day of the Lord = The time of God's wrath when the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed followed by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with the antichrist being the 1st seal who is represented by the rider on the white horse (Rev.6:1-2)

1). The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him

2). The apostasy

3. The man of lawlessness is revealed

4). God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him takes place prior to the apostasy and the revealing of the antichrist and God's wrath.

 

[garee]

Hello Jackson123, It is because you are not understanding the scriptures that you say the gathering of the church takes place after the antichrist and not before.



Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him = The gathering of the church.

The Day of the Lord = The time of God's wrath when the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed followed by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with the antichrist being the 1st seal who is represented by the rider on the white horse (Rev.6:1-2)

1). The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him

2). The apostasy

3. The man of lawlessness is revealed

4). God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him takes place prior to the apostasy and the revealing of the antichrist and God's wrath.

The antichrist has been revealed and not as Hollywood pictures him who has no form .The antichrists are already here.They are the ones that deny Christ has come in the flesh.

Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.1Jo 4:2

Without parables the Christ the word of God spoke not. Why walk by sight after the three avenues of the god of this world and not by faith.(the unseen) Is not the book of Revelation signified using that seen to give us the spiritul understanding not seen.

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

 

[dcontroversal]

believe it might help if you went back and read the story about the 10 virgins. Read it closely... all of them were believers in Christ...It was just that 5 of them were not looking for him....He tells you right there it is going to happen.

My backup plan is to continue until I die at which time, I will see Christ then. It is a win/win situation. God is in total control, and if it is time for me to die, then so be it.

The rapture and the 22nd coming of Christ are very different...The Rapture has to have NOTHing (no events of anykind) to happen before it happens. The 2nd coming has to have major events to happen prior to His arrival.

I'd still would work on that backup plan. just in case.

Yeah I think your missing the mark...........there is no split rapture.......and I have studied it.........and the bible does not support the imminent return.....

was
is
is to come

There is but one Parousia of JESUS and all things must jive with ONE coming....not 2, 3 or 6...........

 

[Ahwatukee]

Yeah I think your missing the mark...........there is no split rapture.......and I have studied it.........and the bible does not support the imminent return.....

was
is
is to come

There is but one Parousia of JESUS and all things must jive with ONE coming....not 2, 3 or 6...........

Hello D,

"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

"But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

I know that you believe differently regarding this, but I felt that I should contend here. The scriptures above cannot be speaking about the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as described in Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7 and Rev.19:11-21. And that because that event is marked by every kind of sign, namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowls like a map. I would know that as soon as the 7th bowl was poured out, I would know that that Lord is going to return very quickly after that last event of wrath. So, regarding the Lord's return to the earth, I would know it. It would not be imminent.

However, regarding the gathering of church, which is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth, it will be like a thief in the night, at an hour that we are not aware of. That's imminency.

One problem that you have with the gathering of the church being synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God which must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth and which we are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, we cannot go into that time period of wrath.

Another problem that you have is that, Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride/church as being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb where she is receiving her fine linen, white and clean during the time of God's wrath upon the earth. Then in Rev.19:14 you have the church/bride following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses identified by the wearing of that same fine line, white and clean that the bride/church will have just received at the wedding. Ergo, in order to follow Christ out of heaven, you would already have to be in heaven.

That the church returns with Christ to the earth to end the age and fight against the nations who will be gathered at Armageddon, is also supported by Rev.17:14 which says "with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

The gathering of the church = Is imminent, with no signs preceding the Lord's appearing to gather the church

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = IS NOT imminent, but is marked by a multitude of signs.

 

[claysmithr]

When you think about it, it makes little to no sense. Why wouldnt the antichrist just tag everyone while they are sleeping? Easy way to damn everyone to hell.

1) Taking the mark will be voluntary, but the punishment of not taking it may be death

2) It could be advanced biotechnology that dissolved in the blood stream, altering their DNA to make them like the Nephilim and damning them to hell

 

[Bladerunner]

No. I will just die. What scares me is my autistic son will not die before me. But I have prayed and asked G-d to let him die before me or us die together. So when it comes the this mark of the beast thing we can reject it together and therefore die together, so I'm good.That is my only true worry in life, that he dies before me. I do not want him to feel the pain of death.

If you really truly believed in Jesus Christ, you would not worry at all about yourself. As for your son depending upon his age and his ability to comprehend the Grace by Faith as spoken of in the Bible, I believe he could be treated as a little child.

The Rapture will take all who truly believe in the Gospel of Jesus. Grace through faith and faith alone.

If you don't believe this and fall in the Preterist, amilennialism, Postmillennium crowds , well you will get chance to decide on that Mark of the Beast. As you have seen, they are just waiting for it to get here.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hello D,

"The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

"But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him."

I know that you believe differently regarding this, but I felt that I should contend here. The scriptures above cannot be speaking about the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, as described in Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7 and Rev.19:11-21. And that because that event is marked by every kind of sign, namely the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If I was here on the earth during the time of God's wrath, I could follow the seals, trumpets and bowls like a map. I would know that as soon as the 7th bowl was poured out, I would know that that Lord is going to return very quickly after that last event of wrath. So, regarding the Lord's return to the earth, I would know it. It would not be imminent.

However, regarding the gathering of church, which is a separate event from the Lord's return to the earth, it will be like a thief in the night, at an hour that we are not aware of. That's imminency.

One problem that you have with the gathering of the church being synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age, is that it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God which must take place prior to the Lord's return to the earth and which we are not appointed to suffer. Therefore, we cannot go into that time period of wrath.

Another problem that you have is that, Rev.19:6-8 shows the bride/church as being in heaven at the wedding of the Lamb where she is receiving her fine linen, white and clean during the time of God's wrath upon the earth. Then in Rev.19:14 you have the church/bride following Christ out of heaven riding on white horses identified by the wearing of that same fine line, white and clean that the bride/church will have just received at the wedding. Ergo, in order to follow Christ out of heaven, you would already have to be in heaven.

That the church returns with Christ to the earth to end the age and fight against the nations who will be gathered at Armageddon, is also supported by Rev.17:14 which says "with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

The gathering of the church = Is imminent, with no signs preceding the Lord's appearing to gather the church

The Lord's return to the earth to end the age = IS NOT imminent, but is marked by a multitude of signs.

We have covered this bro.....and your view denies many things....makes tribulation and wrath one and the same, denies the verbiage used by Jesus to describe his return, denies Matthew, Mark and Luke all describing the ingathering after the great tribulation, places the announcement of men hiding in dens and caves over the words BEFORE the throne in heaven concerning wrath, denies that the Lord's church is gathered in the AIR which allows them to then RETURN to the earth, denies that the Parousia is the 2nd coming and ingathering, denies that PAUL and PETER tie the day of the LORD, Christ and GOD into ONE day, denies the end of time at the 7th trump, denies that the last trump is the 7th trump, denies the Grandsville Sharp in 2nd Thessalonians and the verbiage of what MUST take place before the Parousia of Jesus and our gathering together, denies that the Mystery of the resurrection is completed and finished at the LAST trump mentioned which is also stated concerning the 7th trump etc. etc. etc........

Sorry....was raised believing it, stood on it dogmatically, argue it, taught it and the bible just does not support it....You must pit scripture after scripture against itself to teach and believe it......

 

[Jackson123]

Hello Jackson123, It is because you are not understanding the scriptures that you say the gathering of the church takes place after the antichrist and not before.



Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him = The gathering of the church.

The Day of the Lord = The time of God's wrath when the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed followed by the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with the antichrist being the 1st seal who is represented by the rider on the white horse (Rev.6:1-2)

1). The appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to Him

2). The apostasy

3. The man of lawlessness is revealed

4). God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments

The coming of our Lord and our being gathered to Him takes place prior to the apostasy and the revealing of the antichrist and God's wrath.

hallo Ahwatukee, let me quote the verse again


2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man


You say say the day of the Lord = the time of God wrath

so that verse will be:

Asserting that the wrath of God has already come 3. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

It imply that thessalonians believe wrath of God already come, and Paul say not yet

and you say rapture before tribulation

why Thessalonians believe wrath of God already come and they still on earth?

If they believe like you, rapture before wrath they not going to believe wrath allready happen

that is why I believe the day of the Lord in this verse is rapture

 

[Jackson123]

hallo Ahwatukee, let me quote the verse again


2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man


You say say the day of the Lord = the time of God wrath

so that verse will be:

Asserting that the wrath of God has already come 3. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

It imply that thessalonians believe wrath of God already come, and Paul say not yet

and you say rapture before tribulation

why Thessalonians believe wrath of God already come and they still on earth?

If they believe like you, rapture before wrath they not going to believe wrath allready happen

that is why I believe the day of the Lord in this verse is rapture

The intencity of wrath of God is so severe, I do not believe Thessalonians think already happen. Because easy to detect.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Asserting that the wrath of God has already come 3. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Right! So, "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" takes place prior to "the day of the Lord," which is the wrath of God.

Paul starts off with "concerning the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him," then makes reference to what takes place after the gathering of the church, which is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

That day, the day of God's wrath, which takes place after "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" will not be initiated until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed:

first: the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him

Second: The apostasy

Third: The man of lawlessness is revealed

The following scripture supports this order of events:

"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

Paul says "And now you know what is holding him back," which would be referring back to the man of lawlessness who is being held back or restrained. Something is holding back the man of lawlessness so that he can be revealed at the proper time.

Then in verse 7 the restrainer is referred to as "the one" and as "He."

Then it states that the one holding back the full force of lawlessness and the man of lawlessness, will continue to hold him back or restrain him until the "He" i.e. the one restraining is taken out of the way.

Though there are many interpretations as to who the one retraining the man of sin is so that he may be revealed at his proper time, the only one who has the power to hold back the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness would be the Holy Spirit as the restraining agent.

That said, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, which means that Holy Spirit is restraining through the presence of the church and therefore, when the restrainer as the Holy Spirit is removed out of the way, so also will the church be removed.

So in the scripture above the order of events is the removal of the Holy Spirit and the church with Him and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.

It implies that Thessalonians believe that the wrath of God has already come, and Paul say not yet

and you say rapture before tribulation

why Thessalonians believe wrath of God already come and they still on earth?

Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in response to a previous letter that they had written to him which we don't have. Their concern was that the day of the Lord had already come was because there were false teachers in the midst of the Thessalonian church that were teaching that the gathering of the church had already taken place and they knew that what followed was the wrath of God. So their concern was that, if the gathering has already taken place, then why were we not gathered according what Paul had previously taught them? And if was true, then the next event to take place would be the revealing of that man of lawlessness and God's wrath.

I would have loved to see the letter that the Thessalonians had written to Paul which prompted the second letter to the Thessalonians, but all we have is Paul's letter in response to the one they wrote which we don't have.

I have studied this issue for many years, because at first glance it would infer appear to be saying that the gathering of the church won't take place until the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The problem is that it contradicts the verses 5 thu 8, which has a different order.

Some in desperation, have tried to make the word "apostasia" mean "departure" so that the verse reads as follows:

"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So they attempt to make the word "apostasia" mean to depart up into the air as in being gathered so that the order of events is 1). the departure in the air and 2). the man of lawless is revealed.

Though the word "departure can be used as a translation for the word "apostasia," it must be restricted to departing from one's stand in faith or religion, but cannot be not be used to mean departing up into the air to meet the Lord. Believe it or not, there are people out there who believe this.

There is only one other place where the word "apostasia" is used and that is in Acts 21:21 regarding Paul's teaching to "turn away" from the teachings of Moses. So here in Acts 21:21 is the only other place that we have an example of the use of the word "apostasia." But I reiterate, it cannot be used to mean departing up into the sky.

I hope that this sheds some more light on the subject for you.

 

[Jackson123]

Right! So, "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" takes place prior to "the day of the Lord," which is the wrath of God.

Paul starts off with "concerning the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him," then makes reference to what takes place after the gathering of the church, which is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

That day, the day of God's wrath, which takes place after "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" will not be initiated until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed:

first: the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him

Second: The apostasy

Third: The man of lawlessness is revealed

The following scripture supports this order of events:

"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

Paul says "And now you know what is holding him back," which would be referring back to the man of lawlessness who is being held back or restrained. Something is holding back the man of lawlessness so that he can be revealed at the proper time.

Then in verse 7 the restrainer is referred to as "the one" and as "He."

Then it states that the one holding back the full force of lawlessness and the man of lawlessness, will continue to hold him back or restrain him until the "He" i.e. the one restraining is taken out of the way.

Though there are many interpretations as to who the one retraining the man of sin is so that he may be revealed at his proper time, the only one who has the power to hold back the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness would be the Holy Spirit as the restraining agent.

That said, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, which means that Holy Spirit is restraining through the presence of the church and therefore, when the restrainer as the Holy Spirit is removed out of the way, so also will the church be removed.

So in the scripture above the order of events is the removal of the Holy Spirit and the church with Him and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.



Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in response to a previous letter that they had written to him which we don't have. Their concern was that the day of the Lord had already come was because there were false teachers in the midst of the Thessalonian church that were teaching that the gathering of the church had already taken place and they knew that what followed was the wrath of God. So their concern was that, if the gathering has already taken place, then why were we not gathered according what Paul had previously taught them? And if was true, then the next event to take place would be the revealing of that man of lawlessness and God's wrath.

I would have loved to see the letter that the Thessalonians had written to Paul which prompted the second letter to the Thessalonians, but all we have is Paul's letter in response to the one they wrote which we don't have.

I have studied this issue for many years, because at first glance it would infer appear to be saying that the gathering of the church won't take place until the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The problem is that it contradicts the verses 5 thu 8, which has a different order.

Some in desperation, have tried to make the word "apostasia" mean "departure" so that the verse reads as follows:

"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So they attempt to make the word "apostasia" mean to depart up into the air as in being gathered so that the order of events is 1). the departure in the air and 2). the man of lawless is revealed.

Though the word "departure can be used as a translation for the word "apostasia," it must be restricted to departing from one's stand in faith or religion, but cannot be not be used to mean departing up into the air to meet the Lord. Believe it or not, there are people out there who believe this.

There is only one other place where the word "apostasia" is used and that is in Acts 21:21 regarding Paul's teaching to "turn away" from the teachings of Moses. So here in Acts 21:21 is the only other place that we have an example of the use of the word "apostasia." But I reiterate, it cannot be used to mean departing up into the sky.

I hope that this sheds some more light on the subject for you.

HalloAhwatukee.

So you agree That this letter is asserting that the rapture is not happen yet, the theme of this letter is about rapture, not wrath.

that why the day of the Lord in this letter = rapture.

the day of the Lord is a pronoun of the gathering together and second coming.

 

[Jackson123]

Right! So, "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" takes place prior to "the day of the Lord," which is the wrath of God.

Paul starts off with "concerning the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him," then makes reference to what takes place after the gathering of the church, which is the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath.

That day, the day of God's wrath, which takes place after "the appearing of our Lord and our being gathered to him" will not be initiated until the apostasy and the man of lawlessness is revealed:

first: the appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to him

Second: The apostasy

Third: The man of lawlessness is revealed

The following scripture supports this order of events:

"Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming."

Paul says "And now you know what is holding him back," which would be referring back to the man of lawlessness who is being held back or restrained. Something is holding back the man of lawlessness so that he can be revealed at the proper time.

Then in verse 7 the restrainer is referred to as "the one" and as "He."

Then it states that the one holding back the full force of lawlessness and the man of lawlessness, will continue to hold him back or restrain him until the "He" i.e. the one restraining is taken out of the way.

Though there are many interpretations as to who the one retraining the man of sin is so that he may be revealed at his proper time, the only one who has the power to hold back the full force of sin and the man of lawlessness would be the Holy Spirit as the restraining agent.

That said, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, which means that Holy Spirit is restraining through the presence of the church and therefore, when the restrainer as the Holy Spirit is removed out of the way, so also will the church be removed.

So in the scripture above the order of events is the removal of the Holy Spirit and the church with Him and then that man of lawlessness will be revealed.



Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in response to a previous letter that they had written to him which we don't have. Their concern was that the day of the Lord had already come was because there were false teachers in the midst of the Thessalonian church that were teaching that the gathering of the church had already taken place and they knew that what followed was the wrath of God. So their concern was that, if the gathering has already taken place, then why were we not gathered according what Paul had previously taught them? And if was true, then the next event to take place would be the revealing of that man of lawlessness and God's wrath.

I would have loved to see the letter that the Thessalonians had written to Paul which prompted the second letter to the Thessalonians, but all we have is Paul's letter in response to the one they wrote which we don't have.

I have studied this issue for many years, because at first glance it would infer appear to be saying that the gathering of the church won't take place until the apostasy and the revealing of the man of lawlessness. The problem is that it contradicts the verses 5 thu 8, which has a different order.

Some in desperation, have tried to make the word "apostasia" mean "departure" so that the verse reads as follows:

"Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the departure occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

So they attempt to make the word "apostasia" mean to depart up into the air as in being gathered so that the order of events is 1). the departure in the air and 2). the man of lawless is revealed.

Though the word "departure can be used as a translation for the word "apostasia," it must be restricted to departing from one's stand in faith or religion, but cannot be not be used to mean departing up into the air to meet the Lord. Believe it or not, there are people out there who believe this.

There is only one other place where the word "apostasia" is used and that is in Acts 21:21 regarding Paul's teaching to "turn away" from the teachings of Moses. So here in Acts 21:21 is the only other place that we have an example of the use of the word "apostasia." But I reiterate, it cannot be used to mean departing up into the sky.

I hope that this sheds some more light on the subject for you.

To to my knowledge Holy Spirit is omnipresent. If Christian being rapture, Holy Spirit still present every where(omnipresent)

 

[Alertandawake]

Who here knows of this book here - Book of Jasher/Yasher ?

If one looks at verse 4:18, when I read the verse, there is a reference to the mixing of animal species, but reading in detail, the description matches that of what is called Recombinant DNA.

Now I been researching much into this, and lately, it has been these two areas that are sticking out like a sore thumb -
1. The merging of man and machine
2. Hybrid DNA

Something else, as I have been looking into lately, but why is it now, we are seeing countries imposing financial penalties for parents who refuse to vaccinate their kids?

 

[Rokurac]

If you don't believe this and fall in the Preterist, amilennialism, Postmillennium crowds , well you will get chance to decide on that Mark of the Beast. As you have seen, they are just waiting for it to get here.

You have to believe in the rapture to be raptured? I thought being saved was enough? This is ridicilous fearmongering. The rapture-mania is a recent phenomena, nobody before the 1800s would be saved by your logic. You do know that rapture is the resurrection right? How many resurrections are there???

 

[Bladerunner]

The intencity of wrath of God is so severe, I do not believe Thessalonians think already happen. Because easy to detect.

There appears to have been a bogus letter telling the Thessalonians exactly that..Which is the reason Paul wrote the 2nd letter.