Adam's fall and its consequences

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Dec 28, 2016
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#41
Just like i quoted from the torah, day of atonement, the atonement was made for all of israel, YET still it was to no avail if:

For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

But what can ya do when a mind is reading everything with reformed lenses and ignores everything that directly contradicts it.
Time to throw in the towel. (Ahem... "mixed with faith")

There is nothing about nobody acting as anyone's "Representative" in Ezekiel 18.
Romans 5:12 says sin came and through sin death came into the world, go read Genesis 3 (I quoted it earlier), see exactly what happened, no mention of sin nature or impaired ability to obey. Nothing.

The bottom line is this: If man is not free to obey, if man does not have unhindered will, then all judgments or rewards are meaningless. Nobody has really done anything good or evil, they were just doing what they were programmed to do. As your buddy Calvin says:
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.”

So as I always call it, still holds true: ITS GRACE LOTTERY; you are born either preordained one way or another, unless you agree with ya boi Calvin. This is in direct contrast to what the earlier church fathers before nicene said:

"We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43)

As for Psalm 51:5: If Luther wouldnt of been so anti-semitic he woulda known that Psalm is a book of..... psalms. Poets and songs. Its not a systematic theology book where you pick out a verse and build an entire doctrine on it when ya got clear verses saying that the contrary is true (deuteronomy 1:39 as quoted by John before). So what is psalm 51:5 about? Exactly what it says, its talking about KING DAVID, it aint talking about every human being ever born. Psalm 51 is about David in the state of repentance after the Bathsheba incident. Good grief, ya guys are using the fancy words if anything this is what you call "eisegesis". In some translations like the NIV they even add the word sinful nature where it aint even in the text, to push their church dogmas on people.
And psalms is where yall reformed folks are in biig trouble, its filled with people being called righteous, doing the right thing, its definately a nightmare to yall.
The other "proof text" you used is again in Psalm 58, and again: its a prayer for the punishment of the wicked, its describing the wicked, not the righteous.

Of course, the answer to someone being righteous is always "well God enabled them" but this theory hits a roadblock the second you read Acts 10. Even John Piper couldn't figure that out! How is it possible that Cornelius was considered a just man, God-fearer and his prayer was heard and he got a personal visitation from an angel who told him God has seen his alms and prayers as memorials before Him... ALL THIS BEFORE HE WAS SAVED OR HAD THE HOLY GHOST!
Then Peter gets sent out to the guy and turns out the man didnt even get saved until verse 44 when the HOLY GHOST fell on em!

Here is my take on it: Cornelius was one of them guys described in Romans who didnt violate their conscience, and God saw this and thats why his prayers was accepted. But I thought God dont hear sinners?]
Adios senor...
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#42
As for Psalm 51:5: If Luther wouldnt of been so anti-semitic he woulda known that Psalm is a book of..... psalms. Poets and songs. Its not a systematic theology book where you pick out a verse and build an entire doctrine on it when ya got clear verses saying that the contrary is true (deuteronomy 1:39 as quoted by John before).
Even though psalms are poetry and I agree we must be careful when interpreting them, the New Testament writers used them quite literally and out of "Jewish" or "King David" context.

So you would probably argue with apostles too, in those days.

You kinda say what Jews say - that Christians do not understand that the context is about David or Israel.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#43
Even though psalms are poetry and I agree we must be careful when interpreting them, the New Testament writers used them quite literally and out of "Jewish" or "King David" context.

So you would probably argue with apostles too, in those days.

You kinda say what Jews say - that Christians do not understand that the context is about David or Israel.
Aint it strange Jews never have believed in original sin? Its because the bible dont teach that. Genesis 3 tells the story of the fall, no sin nature, no hindered ability mentioned. Nothing. This is just another excuse for folks not to obey smh... Here is an idea: I dont obey because i dont wanna. There. No need to make excuses about sin nature or even worse what some do is BLAME GOD FOR IT, i'd rather just admit im disobedient. It aint God's fault folks are living like the devil. Even atheists can quit certain sins when they put their minds to it, like drinking or whatever the case may be, yet christians cant do nothing? God wont repent for us, He told us to do it.

Lucky for us there are many christians who do understand. There are even plenty of gentile churches that dont teach original sin, and whaddaya know, people are able to repent. Because they aint told they cant, its like a spiritual chain on folks preventing them from doing what God told em. Like an invisible cage.

Ima be honest i probably would argue with the apostles for a while since its something new coming along, BUT: if i see a bunch of folks speaking in tongues and people getting healed, ya best believe im joining em! Like the israelites who heard Peter preach and was pricked in their hearts on pentecost.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#44
Aint it strange Jews never have believed in original sin? Its because the bible dont teach that. Genesis 3 tells the story of the fall, no sin nature, no hindered ability mentioned. Nothing. This is just another excuse for folks not to obey smh... Here is an idea: I dont obey because i dont wanna. There. No need to make excuses about sin nature or even worse what some do is BLAME GOD FOR IT, i'd rather just admit im disobedient. It aint God's fault folks are living like the devil. Even atheists can quit certain sins when they put their minds to it, like drinking or whatever the case may be, yet christians cant do nothing? God wont repent for us, He told us to do it.

Lucky for us there are many christians who do understand. There are even plenty of gentile churches that dont teach original sin, and whaddaya know, people are able to repent. Because they aint told they cant, its like a spiritual chain on folks preventing them from doing what God told em. Like an invisible cage.

Ima be honest i probably would argue with the apostles for a while since its something new coming along, BUT: if i see a bunch of folks speaking in tongues and people getting healed, ya best believe im joining em! Like the israelites who heard Peter preach and was pricked in their hearts on pentecost.
The term "original sin" is a concept like "Trinity" and needs to be properly defined before we can discuss it. Because we can talk about different things.

Jews are not a measurement of what is right or wrong, for me.

What about verses like "Spirit is ready but the body is weak" or "our body fights against our spirit" and many similar?
It is quite explicit, that in our biological body is something that inclines us to sinning.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#45
What about verses like "Spirit is ready but the body is weak" or "our body fights against our spirit" and many similar?
It is quite explicit, that in our biological body is something that inclines us to sinning.
I agree with that. But i believe Adam had the same struggle. Which is why Eve and Adam gave in to the temptation. Temptation itself aint sin, its only when it takes root.

Adam had the same exact struggle we have, why should we have it any worse than him?

Im sure you agree with me that Adam had the same struggle of spirit is willing flesh is weak, right? The difference i think is, i believe we can rule over it like God told Cain:

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#46
I agree with that. But i believe Adam had the same struggle. Which is why Eve and Adam gave in to the temptation. Temptation itself aint sin, its only when it takes root.

Adam had the same exact struggle we have, why should we have it any worse than him?

Im sure you agree with me that Adam had the same struggle of spirit is willing flesh is weak, right? The difference i think is, i believe we can rule over it like God told Cain:

Genesis 4:7
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
1. I agree that Adam and Eve had also struggle (and failed the struggle) with temptation to sin, based on similarities in our nature, body chemistry (given by evolution, oh jaj, now I will get so much hits from others :D).

2. I do not agree that they had the same struggle. They were in paradise, very simple 1 law, no worries about daily living/future, in the presence of God in a protected garden.
It was the event of their fall (being cast out of this protected paradise) that caused our temptation is so strong.

P.S. I think that Gn 4:7 is wrong in the masoretic text.
 
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Jan 21, 2017
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#47
1. I agree that Adam and Eve had also struggle (and failed the struggle) with temptation to sin, based on similarities in our nature, body chemistry (given by evolution, oh jaj, now I will get so much hits from others :D).

2. I do not agree that they had the same struggle. They were in paradise, very simple 1 law, no worries about daily living/future, in the presence of God in a protected garden.
It was the event of their fall (being cast out of this protected paradise) that caused our temptation is so strong.

P.S. I think that Gn 4:7 is wrong in the masoretic text.
Of course its wrong in the masoretic text, it dont fit with your theology :D
Alright, so we agree Adam had teh temptation in the Garden. So he had free will there. Now the question remains, did God preordain Adam to fall? or not? If yes, God is the author of sin. This is calvinism in its true form, folks just like to philosophically get around it. And I wanna ask ya if you agree that it was Adam's choice and not God's fault.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#48
Of course its wrong in the masoretic text, it dont fit with your theology :D
Alright, so we agree Adam had teh temptation in the Garden. So he had free will there. Now the question remains, did God preordain Adam to fall? or not? If yes, God is the author of sin. This is calvinism in its true form, folks just like to philosophically get around it. And I wanna ask ya if you agree that it was Adam's choice and not God's fault.
1.
I think that the masoretic text does not fit Christianity, generally. They obviously changed many prophecies about Christ etc.
Its also strange in some readings (for example "like a lion on my feet and my hands") and sometimes even brings errors and inconsistencies.
Yes, I think that Gn 4:7 also does not fit.
The New Testament uses Septuagint and therefore there is no reason for me to switch the source.
But this is for another topic.
All in all, if something is only in the masoretic text, be careful.

2. Our sins are not God's fault. And yes, everything is predestined by God to happen. Bible says both.
How is this possible? This is also another topic.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#49
1.
I think that the masoretic text does not fit Christianity, generally. They obviously changed many prophecies about Christ etc.
Its also strange in some readings (for example "like a lion on my feet and my hands") and sometimes even brings errors and inconsistencies.
Yes, I think that Gn 4:7 also does not fit.
The New Testament uses Septuagint and therefore there is no reason for me to switch the source.
But this is for another topic.
All in all, if something is only in the masoretic text, be careful.

2. Our sins are not God's fault. And yes, everything is predestined by God to happen. Bible says both.
How is this possible? This is also another topic.
1. What do it say in the septuagint then? I looked and even the NIV says the same thing.

2. Exactly what i was afraid of. God predestined the fall. Bible says both you say, can you provide verses? If it does say somewhere that God predestined the fall, i'll believe it and switch my beliefs according to the bible.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#50
1. What do it say in the septuagint then? I looked and even the NIV says the same thing.

2. Exactly what i was afraid of. God predestined the fall. Bible says both you say, can you provide verses? If it does say somewhere that God predestined the fall, i'll believe it and switch my beliefs according to the bible.
1.
"Have you not sinned if you have brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? Be still, to you will be his submission, and you will rule over him."

2. There are verses that God predestined everything.
If you want specifically verse like "God predestined Adam to fall" or "God predestined Isachar92 to eat chocolate today", I will not probably find it in the Bible.
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#51
1.
"Have you not sinned if you have brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? Be still, to you will be his submission, and you will rule over him."

2. There are verses that God predestined everything.
If you want specifically verse like "God predestined Adam to fall" or "God predestined Isachar92 to eat chocolate today", I will not probably find it in the Bible.
1. Seems to me to still say the same thing.

2. What verses? I can find one that says Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. But i still see it as God knew it would happen, rather than caused Adam to sin.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#52
1. Seems to me to still say the same thing.

2. What verses? I can find one that says Christ was the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. But i still see it as God knew it would happen, rather than caused Adam to sin.
1. I do not know, it seems to me that Cain had a chance to rule over Abel.

2. I never said that God causes us to sin. God predestined everything without being active in our sinning.
His activity is only positive, good and full of light (I think many Calvinists seem to forget this and do not stress it enough, God is love).
 
Jan 21, 2017
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#53
1. I do not know, it seems to me that Cain had a chance to rule over Abel.

2. I never said that God causes us to sin. God predestined everything without being active in our sinning. His activity is only positive, good and full of light (I think many Calvinists seem to forget this and do not stress it enough).
1. Ok I got it.

2. Oh. Ive never heard of that. So your saying God only predestines good and just allows the evil to take place? So its still Adam's fault yes? Then we are in agreement here.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#54
1. Ok I got it.

2. Oh. Ive never heard of that. So your saying God only predestines good and just allows the evil to take place? So its still Adam's fault yes? Then we are in agreement here.
2. But this is also what Augustin thought... so what do you have problem with?

As I said, many calvinists concentrate so much on His power and right to do whatever He wishes, that they forget a little that God is love and does only what is best, good and just to do.
 
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Jan 21, 2017
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#55
2. But this is also what Augustin thought... so what do you have problem with?

As I said, many calvinists concentrate so much on His power and right to do whatever He wishes, that they forget a little that God is love and does only what is best, good and just to do.
Well I got no problem with that view.

One question since you are literally the best guy on this forum to have a conversation with: What role does the devil play in reformed theology? Is he just a puppet God uses to test people like in Job's story? Or is he a real opponent of God's people? Jews consider him an angel with an unfortunate job description :D

And last thing: How is our will less free than Adam's, or is it? Why is it different? verses?
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#56
Well I got no problem with that view.

One question since you are literally the best guy on this forum to have a conversation with: What role does the devil play in reformed theology? Is he just a puppet God uses to test people like in Job's story? Or is he a real opponent of God's people? Jews consider him an angel with an unfortunate job description :D
If you find my opinions interesting, I will again recommend you the book Theodicy by Gottfried W. Leibniz. Because its my source of all this. Its not my own invention.

I think that the fact that the satan is predestined to serve his purpose in God's plan does not cancel his real enmity for God's people and desire to kill and destroy.
The same principle like in any creation. God is the positive force and our nature is the negative "force", probably better called "the ability to receive God's positive force".
 
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John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#57
Well I got no problem with that view.

One question since you are literally the best guy on this forum to have a conversation with: What role does the devil play in reformed theology? Is he just a puppet God uses to test people like in Job's story? Or is he a real opponent of God's people? Jews consider him an angel with an unfortunate job description :D

And last thing: How is our will less free than Adam's, or is it? Why is it different? verses?
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hell was created for Satan and his angels. Did God intend for any man to burn in everlasting fire? Did God intend for Adam or his offspring to be cursed?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#58
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Hell was created for Satan and his angels. Did God intend for any man to burn in everlasting fire? Did God intend for Adam or his offspring to be cursed?
We must always see the whole picture.

God created the best possible world and for billions to become God's sons with everlasting glory it was needed for humanity to be cursed first, so God allowed it.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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#59
We must always see the whole picture.

God created the best possible world and for billions to become God's sons with everlasting glory it was needed for humanity to be cursed first, so God allowed it.
God allowed it yes, but Did God ever intend for man to end up in hell? Only after Satan and his angels rebelled did God create such a place as hell. It seems to me that God never intended for Lucifer, any of the angels, or man to be cursed but gave all a choice to follow Him at His word. Obedience or rebellion is a choice.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#60
God allowed it yes, but Did God ever intend for man to end up in hell? Only after Satan and his angels rebelled did God create such a place as hell. It seems to me that God never intended for Lucifer, any of the angels, or man to be cursed but gave all a choice to follow Him at His word. Obedience or rebellion is a choice.
Well, there is only some difference in words, then.

Nothing in God wants anyone to die or to be in hell. He is allowing it because its a part of the best possible plan.

So is it an "intend" or not? This is probably a word definition problem only.