End times

[dcontroversal]

God is not going to put his bride, church etc. through this......

Yeah....tell that to the untold millions that have been persecuted and killed over the last 2000 years beginning with the master of the Church, Stephen, Paul, Peter, the millions in the dark ages, the Syrian Christians refusing to acknowledge Allah, those beheaded for the cause of Christ etc........

It is absurd to use that as an argument to try and prove the imminent Parousia of Jesus with all due respect.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Good day Nehemiah6,
I disagree and believe that the gathering of the church is mentioned in Revelation.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

I realize that many equate this with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but strictly speaking it is an inference. This voice as a trumpet was addressed personally to John: ...a trumpet talking with me...

Now it is entirely possible that the Rapture takes place at the same time, but that is only an inference. Had John said "talking with me and summoning the saints" it would be solidly within the book of Revelation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I realize that many equate this with the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, but strictly speaking it is an inference. This voice as a trumpet was addressed personally to John: ...a trumpet talking with me...

Now it is entirely possible that the Rapture takes place at the same time, but that is only an inference. Had John said "talking with me and summoning the saints" it would be solidly within the book of Revelation.

I see it as prophetic, masked if you will, to be recognized by those whom God reveals it. As I said, the voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here" in conjunction with the fact the word Ekklesia translated as church is no longer used, would support the fact that the church is no longer in the picture from this point on.

 

[Ahwatukee]

God is not going to put his bride, church etc. through this......

Yeah....tell that to the untold millions that have been persecuted and killed over the last 2000 years beginning with the master of the Church, Stephen, Paul, Peter, the millions in the dark ages, the Syrian Christians refusing to acknowledge Allah, those beheaded for the cause of Christ etc........

It is absurd to use that as an argument to try and prove the imminent Parousia of Jesus with all due respect.

Why do you continue to make this mistake? All of those people you mentioned over the last 2000 years have not been suffering from God's wrath. Neither Stephen, Paul, Peter nor any of the other apostles suffered from God's wrath.

Jesus said that believers would suffer trial and tribulation, which comes at the hands of mankind with the powers of darkness orchestrating. This is not the wrath of God. Once the church has been removed, the wrath that follows will be God's direct, unprecedented wrath which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath brought on by the two witnesses. I repeat, the trials and tribulation that the church has suffered for the last 2000 years is not a result of God's wrath. Stop confusing the two!


It is this coming wrath of God that believers are not appointed to suffer, which will begin after the church has been gathered.

 

[Nehemiah6]

God is not going to put his bride, church etc. through this......

Yeah....tell that to the untold millions that have been persecuted and killed over the last 2000 years beginning with the master of the Church, Stephen, Paul, Peter, the millions in the dark ages, the Syrian Christians refusing to acknowledge Allah, those beheaded for the cause of Christ etc........

It is absurd to use that as an argument to try and prove the imminent Parousia of Jesus with all due respect.

You are laboring under a fundamental misunderstanding. The trials and tribulations of the saints must not be equated with the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation for the unbelieving, the ungodly, and the enemies of Christ. On one hand we have the testing of our faith and on the other hand we have the wrath of God coming upon those who oppose Him and oppose the Gospel.

THE PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS OF THE SAINTS

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the
kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

THE WRATH OF GOD AGAINST THE UNGODLY

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (2 Thess 1:3-10).

 

[Jackson123]

I see it as prophetic, masked if you will, to be recognized by those whom God reveals it. As I said, the voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here" in conjunction with the fact the word Ekklesia translated as church is no longer used, would support the fact that the church is no longer in the picture from this point on.

the word "airplane" is not in the Bible, it doesn't airplane not exist

 

[MarcR]

In the OT, the Hebrew word צֻר translated as tribulation means persecution of God's people by the World.

in the NT, the Greek word θλίψει translated as tribulation means persecution of the church by unsaved people or governments.

There does NOT appear to be any linguistic connection between tribulation and God's wrath.

Scripture certainly teaches that the Church WILL be persecuted by unsaved people.

Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
KJV
certainly suggests that believers will not face God's wrath.

In Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

the sudden appearance of this great multitude before the seventh seal is open; but after the sixth seal is opened seems to indicates that the Church is raptured before the 7th seal is opened.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There does NOT appear to be any linguistic connection between tribulation and God's wrath.

That is incorrect. "Wrath, tribulation, and anguish" are reserved for the ungodly

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:6-11)

 

[followjesus]

In the OT, the Hebrew word צֻר translated as tribulation means persecution of God's people by the World.

in the NT, the Greek word θλίψει translated as tribulation means persecution of the church by unsaved people or governments.

There does NOT appear to be any linguistic connection between tribulation and God's wrath.

Scripture certainly teaches that the Church WILL be persecuted by unsaved people.

Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
KJV
certainly suggests that believers will not face God's wrath.

In Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

the sudden appearance of this great multitude before the seventh seal is open; but after the sixth seal is opened seems to indicates that the Church is raptured before the 7th seal is opened.

Ro 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
KJV
certainly suggests that believers will not face God's wrath."


single verses can suggest many different things, the key is to reconcile things with the context all around the single verses.

One verse never really tells the same message as the words taken in context made by the verses all around them, its why you have so many different theologies in the church, each one only accepts the verses that agree with " thier" view or " thier" opinion or interpretations. so you have several verses taken from the context they are given and it leaves alot of confusion and nothing seems to correlate or reconcile.


Gods wrath was poured upon Israel because they continually disobeyed. they have been the most displaced and persecuted People on earth since babylon on 600 bc. everywhere the Law of moses reaches, wrath comes Behind it for those who disobey......Jesus is the salvation from that very thing the wrath of God upon the earth due to the decrees in the Law and prophets. But salvation is not merely stating a belief but living the belief that saves from wrath. as it reads there

" those who patiently endure in doing well, will receive eternal Life, those who are contentious and obey not the gospel wrath, indignation ect..... . People have to see that the gospel is not simply something we believe is true, but it is a way of Life taught by Jesus the Lord of all of Heaven and Earth....learning and abiding in the gospel will bring persecution buy the world, and the world will suffer wrath because of those who suffer persecution because of faith. because of the Blood of Gos People, the injustice to Gos faithful, the murders of the innocents, the rapes and thefts and all the evils of mankind, wrath is coming, thats why we have to believe and repent and turn Back to God, with diligence.

 

[Jackson123]

That is incorrect. "Wrath, tribulation, and anguish" are reserved for the ungodly

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God. (Romans 2:6-11)

Definition of tribulation

[h=2]Definition of tribulation[/h]:distress or suffering resulting from oppression or persecution; also :a trying experience

• the trials and tribulations of starting a new business

after read the definition of tribulation, seem to me tribulation may result of persecution by non believer, or wrath of God, depend to the context





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Seem to me

 

[followjesus]

So I'm starting to see that we are living in the end times. If this is true, what should I be looking out for? Because I'm really confused about the whole Rapture thing, the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming. I've read three different theories of the Rapture as to when it's going to happen (pre-tribulation rapture, mid and post tribulation rapture) and everyone from each theory say that the other two are false. Can someone help me out with the order of the events? Thank you for your time.

Have you ever considered that the " rapture" is an ongoing event that may span from the times of the apostles, to our days? things Like the harvest pf the earth may be an ongoing event that eventually culminates in the sudden events we read of in the very end. and also the thought that each persons time spent in this world are the end times for the person. Paul believed they were in the last days even in His day....

 

[Nehemiah6]

after read the definition of tribulation, seem to me tribulation may result of persecution by non believer, or wrath of God, depend to the context

And given the context quoted, wrath = tribulation and anguish for the ungodly. We were told wrath and tribulation are not connected. But God says that they definitely are.

Indeed "the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation) is also the time of God's wrath, since Daniel tells us that there has never been a time such as this nor will ever be. ...and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.

That is precisely how the Lord described the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21): For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.








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Seem to me [/QUOTE]

 

[Jackson123]

[/B]And given the context quoted, wrath = tribulation and anguish for the ungodly. We were told wrath and tribulation are not connected. But God says that they definitely are.

Indeed "the time of Jacob's trouble (tribulation) is also the time of God's wrath, since Daniel tells us that there has never been a time such as this nor will ever be. ...and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time.

That is precisely how the Lord described the Great Tribulation (Mt 24:21): For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.








NEW! Time Traveler


Seem to me

[/QUOTE]

so you believe the word tribulation in this verse mean wrath of God?

matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

seem to me this tribulation happen right before the second coming.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Have you ever considered that the " rapture" is an ongoing event that may span from the times of the apostles, to our days? things Like the harvest pf the earth may be an ongoing event that eventually culminates in the sudden events we read of in the very end. and also the thought that each persons time spent in this world are the end times for the person. Paul believed they were in the last days even in His day....

Hello followJesus,

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage one another with these words."

It's an interesting thought and one I've heard before, but according to the scripture, if the gathering of the church was an on-going event, taking place and continuing since the time of the apostles, it would mean that the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God would be taking place multiple times per day with Jesus also descending every time a believer died. It would also mean that Jesus and all of the dead in Christ would have been waiting in the air for 2000 years for the rest of us who are still alive to be changed and caught up.

However, the scripture demonstrates that the event of the gathering of the church for both the dead and the living, is a single event, where that voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God, will sound and all of the dead in Christ will rise first all at the same time. A Nano second after that, those in Christ who are still alive will be changed into their immortal and glorified bodies and will be caught up with those who will have just resurrected. This gathering will then include the entire church from beginning to the end of the church period, where according to John 14:1-3 the Lord will take the entire group back to the Father's house that where He is we may be also.

Hope this helps

 

[Ahwatukee]

so you believe the word tribulation in this verse mean wrath of God?

matt 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

seem to me this tribulation happen right before the second coming.

Greetings Jackson123,

The word tribulation, which seems to confuse people, is just another designation for "the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, the hour of trial, the time vengeance." This time of wrath/tribulation/vengeance will be carried out during that last seven years as the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem as revealed in Dan.9:24.

According to Dan.2:31-45, God will also be dealing with the rest of the world, which is represented by Nebuchadnezzar's statute, with the ten-toed kingdom made of iron and partly baked clay being the last kingdom, which the Rock (Jesus) falls on the feet of smashing the entire statue to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor, with the wind blowing away the chaff without leaving a trace, which represents the dismantling of all human government never to be reestablished. Then the Rock/Jesus, becomes a huge mountain (kingdom) and fills the entire earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom. The smashing of the statue will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with the Lord returning just after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

 

[Nehemiah6]

so you believe the word tribulation in this verse mean wrath of God?

Very definitely. Study the Day of the LORD in the OT as well as the 6th and 7th seal judgments in the NT. They all relate to this specific time which has never been seen on earth.

 

[Jackson123]

Greetings Jackson123,

The word tribulation, which seems to confuse people, is just another designation for "the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, the hour of trial, the time vengeance." This time of wrath/tribulation/vengeance will be carried out during that last seven years as the fulfillment of the seventy seven year periods that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem as revealed in Dan.9:24.

According to Dan.2:31-45, God will also be dealing with the rest of the world, which is represented by Nebuchadnezzar's statute, with the ten-toed kingdom made of iron and partly baked clay being the last kingdom, which the Rock (Jesus) falls on the feet of smashing the entire statue to pieces like chaff on a threshing floor, with the wind blowing away the chaff without leaving a trace, which represents the dismantling of all human government never to be reestablished. Then the Rock/Jesus, becomes a huge mountain (kingdom) and fills the entire earth, which represents Christ's millennial kingdom. The smashing of the statue will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with the Lord returning just after the 7th bowl has been poured out.

look like the word tribulation mean suffering, it may as a result of God's wrath, or persecution from non believer, or can be anything.

 

[Ahwatukee]

In Rv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

Greetings MarC,

This group with white robes which no man can count is not representing the church, but are the saints who will have been killed during the great tribulation, which is that last 3 1/2 years of the seven year period.

John was previously told to write letters to the seven churches and now the elder is asking John "these in white robes, who are they and where did they come from?" The fact that the elder is even asking John this question demonstrates that this is not the church, but another group. In further support of this, John responds by telling the elder that he doesn't know who this group is. The scripture also reveals that this group is from every tribe, nation, people and language, which makes them all Gentiles, where the church is made up of both Jew and Gentile.

This Gentile group is the great tribulation saints, who are referred to throughout the entire narrative of God's wrath. These are the same saints that the beast makes war against and conquers during the last 3 1/2 years as found in Rev.13:7. These great tribulation saints are the same group that are resurrected after the Lord returns to the earth to end the age as found in Rev.20:4-6, who are apart of the first resurrection.

 

[Nehemiah6]

look like the word tribulation mean suffering, it may as a result of God's wrath, or persecution from non believer, or can be anything.

Is this wishful thinking or a desire for the truth? The Great Tribulation is a very specific period of God's wrath, and because it is very specific the Greek has literally "The Tribulation, The Great" -- τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης.

 

[Ahwatukee]

look like the word tribulation mean suffering, it may as a result of God's wrath, or persecution from non believer, or can be anything.

The trials and tribulation that Jesus said believers would suffer come at the hands of mankind with the powers of darkness orchestrating in the background and which has been going on from the on-set of the church until this very hour and will continue to do so up until the church has been gathered.

The tribulation that is coming is God's unprecedented wrath, which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as the plagues of wrath that the two witnesses bring. Whenever you read the phase "the day of the Lord, the time of vengeance, the hour of trial, the wrath of God, it is referring to that unprecedented time of wrath which will take place in conjunction during that last seven years leading up to the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.

It will be a time that the inhabitants earth has never seen, decimating the majority of the earths population and dismantling all human government. By the time the Lord returns and based on my studies of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, there will most likely be less than 10% of the earths population left. It is for this reason that I am always contending with these people who think that God is going protect the church in the midst of His wrath, because they don't understand the severity and magnitude of God's coming wrath. If they did, they would understand that God is going to remove the church prior to this time tribulation/great tribulation.