End times

[PlainWord]

Hi snoozy

I don't know what this guy is selling, but the scriptures speaks of two kingdoms, the kingdom of God, and the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of God is within, heaven is above. We die and go to the heavenly. At the end, the new earth and heavens.

Dont let the guy mess with you.

The "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven" are interchangeable terms meaning the same thing!! Jesus uses these terms interchangeably in Mt 19:23-24.

The two kingdoms are of this world and of heaven as taught here:

Rev 11:15:

[FONT=&quot]Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in [/FONT]heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

 

[PlainWord]

Plainword is not messing Stones - we are already in the "New heavens and Earth" if you are in Christ - this has nothing to do with a new physical heaven and earth - when we die as Christians we enter in to heaven for sure.

Look at what Isaiah said were the conditions after the creation of the New heavens and earth:

Isa 65:17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Isa 65:20 “No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

In the above in the new heavens and there is still birth and death happening - this totally refutes the futurist view of the new heavens and earth.

And remember this is highly figurative language used by Isaiah

Thanks LOC. You, of course, are correct. The passage from Isa 65 is of course discussing the fall of Jerusalem, the condemned and the saved Jews. During the "great tribulation" of Jerusalem, where all the bad eggs were returned to the basket, babies and the old were killed. The weak fell victim to the young and strong, namely the tyrants (John and Simon mostly). Isaiah is simply telling us in figurative terms that after the GT, the young will live to be old and the old will live out their normal years again.

After 4 years of brutal civil war where the Jews inside the city lived in starvation with robbers breaking in and taking everything while the Romans camped outside killing all who tried to escape, there would be peace. The "lions eating straw" isn't literal as our futurists friends think, it is an expression of peace relative to the horrors that had been happening. Most do not realize that many more Jews were killed at the hands of other Jews during 68-70 AD than who were killed by the Romans.

 

[Snoozy]

LOL, you still aren't getting it. WE ARE NOT OF THIS WORLD. Pain suffering, crying etc is OF THIS WORLD. You will continue to experience these bad things while you are in your mortal body. These bad things DO NOT EXIST in the spiritual realm which is our everlasting home.

are u suggesting JEsus will never put an end to sin in this world?

 

[Snoozy]

Please notice there are no capital letters in Greek, making it a specific, discrete event. Instead it is "the tribulation, the great." Of course, in English, we move the adjective forward, making it "the great tribulation." By putting capitals on it in English, you are trying to make it the phrase monodic, or even par excellence. This is not supported by the Greek!

be careful when this happens. when u are being pulled away from the bible to "the greek" get ready to be tricked and deceived. my mind is on highalert when im being told something from "the greek" because i dont speak greek, therefore its easy to deceive me.

there is not just "the greek" which is so clear and simple. u can make it say whatever u want.

its great tribulation. thats what it means. thats how its translated by top scholars. why should we believe u over them?

the time of Jacob's trouble will not be a "discrete" event that everyone will just miss. Jesus said there shall be GREAT TRIBULATION! such as has never been nor ever WILL BE!

 

[preacher4truth]

its great tribulation. thats what it means. thats how its translated by top scholars.

Documentation? Which top scholars? Names?

 

[stonesoffire]

The "Kingdom of God" and the "Kingdom of Heaven" are interchangeable terms meaning the same thing!! Jesus uses these terms interchangeably in Mt 19:23-24.

The two kingdoms are of this world and of heaven as taught here:

Rev 11:15:

Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Where is God then? His plan is to be with us is it not?..and the kingdom of God is within. I do agree that they are interchangeable but, Jesus came down from heaven. What do you do with that scripture?

 

[PlainWord]

are u suggesting JEsus will never put an end to sin in this world?

I wouldn't say "never" because we don't know. There are passages that suggest this planet Earth goes on forever. If we are to reign, there has to be something to reign over.

 

[Snoozy]

Documentation? Which top scholars? Names?

u know the kjv translators were the best in the land. The King James Version Translators

and since i know u guys dont like the kjv, i will say that i would trust even the ESV NASB or whatever mainstream translation over one person's translation on a forum.

so the documentation is clear. why are all translations wrong? but one sweeper on a forum gets it right? yeah right.

 

[Snoozy]

I wouldn't say "never" because we don't know. There are passages that suggest this planet Earth goes on forever. If we are to reign, there has to be something to reign over.

yes we do know. in revelation 21 no more death pain suffering and new heaven and new earth created.
they dissolve in

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

 

[stonesoffire]

Plainword is not messing Stones - we are already in the "New heavens and Earth" if you are in Christ - this has nothing to do with a new physical heaven and earth - when we die as Christians we enter in to heaven for sure.

Look at what Isaiah said were the conditions after the creation of the New heavens and earth:

Isa 65:17 For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind.

Isa 65:20 “No longer will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, Or an old man who does not live out his days; For the youth will die at the age of one hundred And the one who does not reach the age of one hundred Will be thought accursed.

In the above in the new heavens and there is still birth and death happening - this totally refutes the futurist view of the new heavens and earth.

And remember this is highly figurative language used by Isaiah

If you are speaking that by faith we can walk as in the new creation man because we are now Spiritual, no longer flesh, then I agree. That was the point I was trying to make on not by works thread, but was unsuccessful. Our works then being out of our connection to God. In those heavenly realms.

Much that I have to experience yet.

Plainwords words are not so plain. What you wrote is.

 

[preacher4truth]

u know the kjv translators were the best in the land. The King James Version Translators

and since i know u guys dont like the kjv, i will say that i would trust even the ESV NASB or whatever mainstream translation over one person's translation on a forum.

so the documentation is clear. why are all translations wrong? but one sweeper on a forum gets it right? yeah right.

I used the KJV for years, I'm not against it, I've just moved on from it.

As far as what Angela53510 she is not saying they are wrong per se, she is is simply pointing out a more defined translation. She is not incorrect, and she is not denying that the event will be of magnitude.

BTW, your link? Sorry, I don't listen to the cultic KJVO'ers.

 

[stonesoffire]

Ok, this might sound really off, but it's bothering me greatly about what you believe to happen.

The world spirit is about finding a way to live forever without God. Medical science has made so many discoveries and even moreso I'm sure since I stopped reading about it.

There are body parts being sold on the black market. Transplants in high demand for those with money. Stem cell research? Where do we think this is coming from? I don't even want to say. Hurts my heart.

This is sin at the highest level, and satanic for sure. God has to roll this world up like a scroll. We are becoming worse than S and G.

 

[Snoozy]

As far as what Angela53510 she is not saying they are wrong per se, she is is simply pointing out a more defined translation. She is not incorrect, and she is not denying that the event will be of magnitude.

if thats the case then i misunderstood and im sorry. and apologize.

 

[MarcR]

be careful when this happens. when u are being pulled away from the bible to "the greek" get ready to be tricked and deceived. my mind is on highalert when im being told something from "the greek" because i dont speak greek, therefore its easy to deceive me.

there is not just "the greek" which is so clear and simple. u can make it say whatever u want.

its great tribulation. thats what it means. thats how its translated by top scholars. why should we believe u over them?

the time of Jacob's trouble will not be a "discrete" event that everyone will just miss. Jesus said there shall be GREAT TRIBULATION! such as has never been nor ever WILL BE!

The OT was written in Hebrew and the NT was written in Greek. Our English translations are adequate to lead us to Salvation; and even to sound doctrine; but if you desire to search out those thoughts which are unclear in the English for a fuller understanding, understanding the original languages can be very helpful.

 

[PlainWord]

Where is God then? His plan is to be with us is it not?..and the kingdom of God is within. I do agree that they are interchangeable but, Jesus came down from heaven. What do you do with that scripture?

God is everywhere. He is not bound by anything.

Yes, Jesus came down from heaven to execute judgment against wicked Jerusalem. However, He did not come down as a man-like figure. Rev 18:1 makes clear that the earth (Israel) was illuminated with His glory. Thus Christ's return (parousia) was visible as a bright light which was recorded by Josephus.

If you study Mt 24:3 you will learn that the disciples did not ask for the signs of His "coming" but rather the signs of His "presence" or parousia. It was the presence of Christ which returned 66-70 AD to execute judgment wrath upon those wicked, disbelieving Jews. If you read Deu 28 you will see the events of 66-70 AD discussed in great detail and all of it came true exactly as foretold. Thus Moses tells the story of the beginning and end of Israel.

Christ ended the Law in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple. The temple optimized the Law. Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, the end of the Law was the end of the age(s) as foretold by the prophets. The age of the Law ended in 70 AD. There can be no dispute about this. Thus "DEATH" ended then also. Again, "DEATH" is separation from God. This separation is over. Never again does a believer (Saint) need to rest in Hades awaiting redemption. Christ redeemed us. We go immediately to heaven when we physically die.

 

[stonesoffire]

God is everywhere. He is not bound by anything.

Yes, Jesus came down from heaven to execute judgment against wicked Jerusalem. However, He did not come down as a man-like figure. Rev 18:1 makes clear that the earth (Israel) was illuminated with His glory. Thus Christ's return (parousia) was visible as a bright light which was recorded by Josephus.

If you study Mt 24:3 you will learn that the disciples did not ask for the signs of His "coming" but rather the signs of His "presence" or parousia. It was the presence of Christ which returned 66-70 AD to execute judgment wrath upon those wicked, disbelieving Jews. If you read Deu 28 you will see the events of 66-70 AD discussed in great detail and all of it came true exactly as foretold. Thus Moses tells the story of the beginning and end of Israel.

Christ ended the Law in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple. The temple optimized the Law. Paul taught in 1 Cor 15:

The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Well, the end of the Law was the end of the age(s) as foretold by the prophets. The age of the Law ended in 70 AD. There can be no dispute about this. Thus "DEATH" ended then also. Again, "DEATH" is separation from God. This separation is over. Never again does a believer (Saint) need to rest in Hades awaiting redemption. Christ redeemed us. We go immediately to heaven when we physically die.

Interesting that you used the word age. I see this present age as being the second. The first age, pre-Adam, ended with the ice age, then the present age with the re-creation and Adam, the third age would be the Kingdom age. I know the law ended but I thought from the scriptures it was with the Cross, not the destruction of the temple.

So, as in the first age, there was destruction and a re-creation, so will there be an end to this one, and a new re-creation.

Ruling with Jesus over the sheep.

 

[Locutus]

Interesting that you used the word age. I see this present age as being the second. The first age, pre-Adam, ended with the ice age, then the present age with the re-creation and Adam, the third age would be the Kingdom age. I know the law ended but I thought from the scriptures it was with the Cross, not the destruction of the temple.

So, as in the first age, there was destruction and a re-creation, so will there be an end to this one, and a new re-creation.

Ruling with Jesus over the sheep.

Jesus is ruling over his sheep now Stones. In regards to "ages" - the Jews really only had two ages in mind - "this age" in which they lived and the age to come, which is the age of Messiah.

Jesus tells us that the harvest was to be at the end of the age - when was the end of the age, what age was Jesus living in?

1 Co 2:7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;

1 Co 2:8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory;

Paul is stating in the above that the "rulers" of the age he was living in crucified the Lord of Glory

So who are the "rulers" Paul is speaking of - some claim that the Romans were the crucifiers of Christ for it was they that placed him on the cross.

But both Peter and Paul place the ultimate blame on the Jews and especially the Jewish rulers.

Act 3:15 but put to death the Prince of life, the one whom God raised from the dead, a fact to which we are witnesses.

Act 3:17 “And now, brethren, I know that you acted in ignorance, just as your rulers did also.

The Greek word "archon" is translated as rulers in the above and in 1 Cor 2:8.

So for the Jewish nation the rulers of "this age" were the Temple leaders and Sanhedrin not the Romans.

When did the age of this rule end?

It ended with war of 66-70 AD - the temple went *poof* along with the rulers of that age.

What this means is we are now in the age of Messiah - the rulers of that age in which Jesus was manifested and killed are long gone:

Heb 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

Jesus appeared at the ending of the ages and promised to be with the apostles in power until the end of the age.

Matt 28:20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

 

[Seedz]

Well, everyone has different interpretations, ideas, and evidence for all of the varying theories about the rapture, tribulation, and end times. Just like a lot of other different topics within the christian world view, there is no one concrete statement to end the arguing.

Ever wonder why there are so many doctrines, denominations, and views on everything???

What does this mean?

I really don't know for sure, but what I do know is that no one actually knows anything because it has been way too long since everything was written for anyone to know for sure.

There were at least 2 languages that the original text was written in, and never mind the countless translations made since. Don't forget to keep in mind that the scholars translating all put in their own personal opinion on what the text is actually saying.

So don't worry so much about the details, live everyday for the Lord and seek the kingdom of God and everything else shall be added.

There is not much else that we can do. Worrying won't add a single cubit to your stature.

 

[Bogadile]

Well, everyone has different interpretations, ideas, and evidence for all of the varying theories about the rapture, tribulation, and end times. Just like a lot of other different topics within the christian world view, there is no one concrete statement to end the arguing.

Ever wonder why there are so many doctrines, denominations, and views on everything???

What does this mean?

I really don't know for sure, but what I do know is that no one actually knows anything because it has been way too long since everything was written for anyone to know for sure.

There were at least 2 languages that the original text was written in, and never mind the countless translations made since. Don't forget to keep in mind that the scholars translating all put in their own personal opinion on what the text is actually saying.

So don't worry so much about the details, live everyday for the Lord and seek the kingdom of God and everything else shall be added.

There is not much else that we can do. Worrying won't add a single cubit to your stature.

A great and humble attitude.

I agree, yet I have been bickering and arguing on this thread for countless of pages in the past. Mwahaha. I am the hypocrite.

I believe there are certain things we can know for sure such as the fact that Jesus is coming and there will be a new heaven and new earth. And we will have eternal life with no sorrow, pain and suffering.
That is something everyone agrees on. Just like 2 Peter 3:10ff says.

Except for two.
And even those two agree that in the afterlife Christians will have no sorrow, pain or suffering. So no matter how you flip the script, the end result is eternal life.

 

[Seedz]

A great and humble attitude.

I agree, yet I have been bickering and arguing on this thread for countless of pages in the past. Mwahaha. I am the hypocrite.

I believe there are certain things we can know for sure such as the fact that Jesus is coming and there will be a new heaven and new earth. And we will have eternal life with no sorrow, pain and suffering.
That is something everyone agrees on. Just like 2 Peter 3:10ff says.

Except for two.
And even those two agree that in the afterlife Christians will have no sorrow, pain or suffering. So no matter how you flip the script, the end result is eternal life.

Well, you're right about that everyone agrees on the "good" parts haha.