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Thread: End times

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    Default End times

    So I'm starting to see that we are living in the end times. If this is true, what should I be looking out for? Because I'm really confused about the whole Rapture thing, the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming. I've read three different theories of the Rapture as to when it's going to happen (pre-tribulation rapture, mid and post tribulation rapture) and everyone from each theory say that the other two are false. Can someone help me out with the order of the events? Thank you for your time.
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    Senior Member Billyd's Avatar
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    Default Re: End times

    Quote Originally Posted by MorningGlorySnowflake View Post
    So I'm starting to see that we are living in the end times. If this is true, what should I be looking out for? Because I'm really confused about the whole Rapture thing, the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming. I've read three different theories of the Rapture as to when it's going to happen (pre-tribulation rapture, mid and post tribulation rapture) and everyone from each theory say that the other two are false. Can someone help me out with the order of the events? Thank you for your time.
    Begin with verse 1 of Revelations and read through to chapter 22 verse 21. The book is sequential from start to finish.
    2 Peter 1:5 Because you have these blessings, do all you can to add to your life these things: to your faith add goodness; to your goodness add knowledge; 6 to your knowledge add self-control; to your self-control add patience; to your patience add devotion to God; 7 to your devotion add kindness toward your brothers and sisters in Christ, and to this kindness add love.

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    Senior Member PennEd's Avatar
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    Default Re: End times

    Quote Originally Posted by MorningGlorySnowflake View Post
    So I'm starting to see that we are living in the end times. If this is true, what should I be looking out for? Because I'm really confused about the whole Rapture thing, the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming. I've read three different theories of the Rapture as to when it's going to happen (pre-tribulation rapture, mid and post tribulation rapture) and everyone from each theory say that the other two are false. Can someone help me out with the order of the events? Thank you for your time.

    Oh boy,

    You forgot to list the "never-rapturers!".


    I personally believe there is enough evidence to support a pre-trib rapture, and will explain it to my brothers and sisters in Christ who believe otherwise on the way up!
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    Default Re: End times

    People have been saying the end is near for a loooong time. is it? Maybe. Should we spend time worrying about it? I think our time could be better spent elsewhere, but to each his own.

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    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: End times

    The "rapture" is post tribulation, Yahshua/Jesus said this HImself;

    Matt 24:21-2, "For then will be great tribulation, such as has not come to pass since the beginning of the world to this time--no, nor ever will be. And unless those days were shortened, there would no flesh be saved; but for the elect's sake, those days will be shortened."


    Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

    Revelation 8:2, "And I saw the seven messengers who stand before Yah, and to them were given seven trumpets."

    Revelation 5:5-6, “And one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. See, the Lion of the tribe of Yehuḏah, the Root of Dawiḏ, overcame to open the scroll and to loosen its seven seals.” And I looked and saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures, and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing, as having been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of Yah sent out into all the earth.”

    Revelation 11:15, “And the seventh messenger sounded his trumpet, and there came to be loud voices in the heaven, saying, “The reign of this world has become the reign of our Master, and of His Messiah, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation. For if we believe that
    יהושע died and rose again, so also Yah shall bring with Him those who sleep in יהושע. For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are left over at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep. Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Yah, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first. Then we, the living who are left over, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master. So, then, encourage one another with these words."

    1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

    Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
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    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: End times

    There are many passages that give insight in knowing when it is near, but Mat 24 is the best overview IMO;

    Mat 24:1-51,
    "24:1, "And going out, יהושע went away from the Set-apart Place, and His taught ones came near to point out to Him the buildings of the Set-apart Place."
    24:2, "And יהושע said to them, “Do you not see all these? Truly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, at all, which shall not be thrown down.”"
    24:3, "And as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the taught ones came to Him separately, saying, “Say to us, when shall this be, and what is the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”"
    24:4, "And יהושע answering, said to them, “Take heed that no one leads you astray."
    24:5, "“For many shall come in My Name, saying, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and they shall lead many astray."
    24:6, "“And you shall begin to hear of fightings and reports of fightings. See that you are not troubled, for these have to take place, but the end is not yet."
    24:7, "“For nation shall rise against nation, and reign against reign. And there shall be scarcities of food, and deadly diseases, and earthquakes in places."
    24:8, "“And all these are the beginning of birth pains."
    24:9, "“Then they shall deliver you up to affliction and kill you, and you shall be hated by all nations for My Name’s sake."
    24:10, "“And then many shall stumble, and they shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another."
    24:11, "“And many false prophets shall rise up and lead many astray."
    24:12, "“And because of the increase in lawlessness, the love of many shall become cold."
    24:13, "“But he who shall have endured to the end shall be saved.(Mat 10:22.)"
    24:14, "“And this Good News of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come."
    24:15, "“So when you see the ’abomination that lays waste,’(Dan 11:31) spoken of by Dani’ĕl the prophet, set up in the set-apart place” – he who reads, let him understand – (Dan 9:27) and Abomination that lays waste in"
    24:16, "“then let those who are in Yehuḏah flee to the mountains."
    24:17, "“Let him who is on the house-top not come down to take whatever out of his house."
    24:18, "“And let him who is in the field not turn back to get his garments."
    24:19, "“And woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing children in those days!"
    24:20, "“And pray that your flight does not take place in winter or on the Sabbath."
    24:21, "“For then there shall be great distress,c such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Footnote: cOr great pressure, or great affliction."
    24:22, "“And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would be saved, but for the sake of the chosen ones those days shall be shortened."
    24:23, "“If anyone then says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe."
    24:24, "“For false messiahs and false prophets shall arise, and they shall show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the chosen ones."
    24:25, "“See, I have forewarned you."
    24:26, "“So if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe."
    24:27, "“For as the lightning comes from the east and shines to the west, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be."
    24:28, "“For wherever the dead body is, there the vulturesd shall be gathered together. (Luk 17:37)
    24:29, "“And immediately after the distresse of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, (Isa 13:10; Isa 24:23, Eze 32:7-8, Joe 2:10, Joe 2:31, Joe 3:15 and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken.g Hag 2:6, Hag 2:21, Amo 5:20, Amo 8:9. gAlso see Isa 34:4)
    24:30, "“And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, (Zec 12:10, Zec 12:14) and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds (Dan 7:13) of the heaven with power and much esteem. (Dan 7:14)
    24:31, "“And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet (1 Cor 15:51-55 ), (Isa 27:13) and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, (Dan 7:2) from one end of the heavens to the other. (Deu 4:32)
    24:32, "“And learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that the summer is near."
    24:33, "“So you also, when you see all these, know that He is near, at the doors."
    24:34, "“Truly, I say to you, this generation shall by no means pass away until all this takes place."
    24:35, "“The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but My words shall by no means pass away."
    24:36, "“But concerning that day and the hour no one knows, not even the messengers of the heavens, but My Father only. (Mar 13:32)
    24:37, "“And as the days of Noaḥ, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be."
    24:38, "“For as they were in the days before the flood, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noaḥ entered into the ark, (Gen 7:7)
    24:39, "and they did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also shall the coming of the Son of Aḏam be."
    24:40, "“Then twoi shall be in the field, the one is taken and the one is left.”
    24:41, "“Two womeni shall be grinding at the mill, one is taken and one is left.”
    24:42, "“Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Master is coming."
    24:43, "“And know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into."
    24:44, "“Because of this, be ready too, for the Son of Aḏam is coming at an hour when you do not expect Him."
    24:45, "“Who then is a trustworthy and wise servant, whom his master set over his household, to give them food in season?"
    24:46, "“Blessed is that servant whom his master, having come, shall find so doing."
    24:47, "“Truly, I say to you that he shall set him over all his possessions."
    24:48, "“But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’"
    24:49, "and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards,"
    24:50, "the master of that servant shall come on a day when he does not expect it, and at an hour he does not know,"
    24:51, "and shall cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites – there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
    Sherril likes this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Default Re: End times

    Also a way to know the Creator's timeline os to understand His Appointed Times;

    The 7th day Sabbath and all 7 Feast days of YHWH are about the works of Yahshua Messiah, prophetically shown by the mouth of YHWH. The first three are displayed in the spring Feasts, where Messiah came as the suffering Lamb. The last four are about His return as a conquering Lion. Starting with Feast of Trumpets, marking the return of Yahshua Messiah, the day that no man knows the day or hour… the Feast of Trumpets can not be predicted because it is the only Feast that occurs on the sighting of the new moon, something NASA can not predict with 100% accuracy. So these are times only the Creator of the heavens and Earth has control over. These Feasts are called “moadim” in Hebrew, and have a very interesting definition; “appointed time, place, or meeting” These days (appointed times) are celebratory Holy Days/Holidays inspired by the Creator of the heavens and earth. An appointed time set by the Creator of the heavens and Earth…

    Genesis 1:14, "And Yah said, “Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times*, and for days and years.”

    Psalm 104:19, "You appointed the moon for setting the appointed times*. The sun knows its going down."

    appointed timesis word #H4150 - Original Word: מוֹעֵד, Part of Speech: Noun Masculine, Transliteration: moed, Phonetic Spelling: (mo-ade'), Short Definition: meeting, Word Origin from yaad, Definition - appointed time, place, or meeting

    1 Thessalonians 5:1, "But concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need that I should write to you."

    Fulfilled already- To be fulfilled in the future

    1. Passover/First-fruits – Yahshua's Sacrifice(Passover), burial and resurrection (First Fruits)
    2. Feast of Unleavened Bread – Removal of sin by Yahshua's perfect work as the Passover Sacrifice
    3. Feast of Weeks – The blessing Holy Spirit of YHWH, coming into our lives stronger than ever
    4. Feast of Trumpets – Yahshua's return and gathering of the Saints
    5. Day of Atonement – Yahshua leads the army of YHWH to destroy evil rulers of this world and satan is chained for 1,000 years
    6. Feast of Tabernacles – Yahshua dwells on earth for 1,000 years teaching truth and righteousness
    7. The Last Great Day – satan is loosed and swiftly destroyed, the Kingdom of YHWH reigns forever
    dcontroversal and Sherril like this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: End times

    A chart of the seals, trumpets and vials;

    rev time line.jpg
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    2 Peter 3:1-18, "3:1, "This is now, beloved ones, the second letter I write to you, in which I stir up your sincere mind, to remember"3:2, "the words previously spoken by the set-apart prophets, and of the command of the Master and Saviour, spoken by your emissaries,"3:3, "knowing this first: that mockers shall come in the last days with mocking, walking according to their own lusts,"3:4, "and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all continues as from the beginning of creation.”"3:5, "For they choose to have this hidden from them: that the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, by the Word of YHWH. Heb 11:3."3:6, "through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water."3:7, "And the present heavens and the earth are treasured up by the same Word, being kept for fire, to a day of judgment and destruction of wicked men."3:8, "But, beloved ones, let not this one matter be hidden from you: that with יהוה one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. Psa 90:4."3:9, "יהוה is not slow in regard to the promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward us, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 1Ti 2:4."3:10, "But the day of יהוה shall come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with intense heat, and the earth and the works that are in it shall be burned up."3:11, "Seeing all these are to be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be in set-apart behaviour and reverence,"3:12, "looking for and hastening the coming of the day of YHWH, through which the heavens shall be destroyed, being set on fire, and the elements melt with intense heat!"3:13, "But according to His promise we wait for a renewed heavens and a renewed earth Isa 65:17, Isa 66:22 in which righteousness dwells."3:14, "So then, beloved ones, looking forward to this, do your utmost to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,"3:15, "and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him,"3:16, "as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. 2Co 11:6."3:17, "You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless,"3:18, "but grow in the favour and knowledge of our Master and Saviour יהושע Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Awmĕin."
    Sherril likes this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Default Re: End times

    Ecclesiastes 3:11, “He has made it all, beautiful in its time. Even the ages He has put in their hearts, except that no one finds out the work that Yah does from beginning to end.”



    1 Samuel 3:12, “In that day I shall confirm against Ěli all that I have spoken concerning his house, from beginning to end.”



    Isaiah 46:10, “declaring the end from the beginning, and from of old that which has not yet been done, saying, ‘My counsel does stand, and all My delight I do,”



    Mat 24:42, "“Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Master is coming.”



    2 Peter 3:3-4, "knowing this first: that mockers shall come in the last days with mocking, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all continues as from the beginning of creation.”
    Sherril likes this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


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    Default Re: End times

    Quote Originally Posted by FlSnookman7 View Post
    People have been saying the end is near for a loooong time. is it? Maybe. Should we spend time worrying about it? I think our time could be better spent elsewhere, but to each his own.
    My father who I considered a godly man that has long gone to be with the Lord, had the best answer I ever heard on this question... I said Dad when in the end of time?... He said well I don't know how others understand it but I've always looked at it this way... When I breathe my last that is the end of my time here on earth... After that, its in the Lords hands... I too don't worry about it... Brother Glen

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: End times

    Quote Originally Posted by Billyd View Post
    Begin with verse 1 of Revelations and read through to chapter 22 verse 21. The book is sequential from start to finish.
    Which is your opinion, only. Maybe it is not sequential, but paralel.
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    Do not be worried about many things - only one thing is needed (Lk 10:41-42).

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    Senior Member trofimus's Avatar
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    Default Re: End times

    Quote Originally Posted by MorningGlorySnowflake View Post
    So I'm starting to see that we are living in the end times. If this is true, what should I be looking out for? Because I'm really confused about the whole Rapture thing, the Great Tribulation and the Second Coming. I've read three different theories of the Rapture as to when it's going to happen (pre-tribulation rapture, mid and post tribulation rapture) and everyone from each theory say that the other two are false. Can someone help me out with the order of the events? Thank you for your time.
    I do not think you will change anything by knowing the right order of the events.

    Better prepare your soul, heart and life. It will be much more useful.

    If you will die tomorrow by a car accident or in 10 years in some war or in 50 years because of some health problem or because the antichrist, what is the difference?
    Do not be worried about many things - only one thing is needed (Lk 10:41-42).

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    Default Re: End times

    Can I ask a simple question, you brethren that talk about the coming antichrist how do you explain these verses in 1 John?... Brother Glen

    1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

    2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

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    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Default Re: End times

    Any who deny Yahshuais the child of YHWH are anti-Messiah, but there is an endtime anti-Messiah, "the anti-Messiah" yet to be revealed*

    1 John/Yahanan 2:22-23, “Who is the liar, except the one denying that יהושע is the Messiah? This is the anti-messiah, the one denying the Father and the Son. No one denying the Son has the Father. The one confessing the Son has the Father as well.”

    1 John/Yahanan 4:1-3, “Beloved ones, do not believe every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of Yah, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of Yah: Every spirit that confesses that יהושע Messiah has come in the flesh is of Yah, and every spirit that does not confess that יהושע Messiah has come in the flesh is not of Yah. And this is the spirit of the anti-messiah which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world.”

    1 John/Yahanan 2:18, "Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist (G500) is coming, so now many antichrists (G500) have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour."

    "antichrist" is word # G500 – antichristos Strong's Concordance, antichristos: antichrist, (one who opposes Christ), Original Word: ἀντίχριστος, ου, ὁ, Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine, Transliteration: antichristos, Phonetic Spelling: (an-tee'-khris-tos), Short Definition: antichrist, Definition: antichrist, either one who puts himself in the place of, or the enemy (opponent) of the Messiah.

    —Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar), 1) the adversary of the Messiah

    —Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon), From G0473 and G5547; an opponent of the Messiah:—antichrist.

    "the anti-Messiah" yet to be revealed*

    2 Thessalonians 2:6-12, "For the mystery of iniquity is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan, who works with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of sin in those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason, YHWH will send them strong delusion, that they would believe the deception, In order that all those may be judged as not having believed the truth, but as having delighted in sin."
    Sherril likes this.
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


  16. #16
    Senior Member Joidevivre's Avatar
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    You are young and I am old. I have been hearing this for all the years of my life. Every generation goes through this feeling since the NT was written.

    Finally, I realized that if I lived every day loving God and others - really loving them - that was a lot to handle just on its own. I would always be ready no matter what the time or day. I urge you to just live in the moment NOW, and be that fragrance of Christ to others daily. The end will take care of itself someday. And no one knows all the details anyway.

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    Senior Member Hizikyah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joidevivre View Post
    You are young and I am old. I have been hearing this for all the years of my life. Every generation goes through this feeling since the NT was written.

    Finally, I realized that if I lived every day loving God and others - really loving them - that was a lot to handle just on its own. I would always be ready no matter what the time or day. I urge you to just live in the moment NOW, and be that fragrance of Christ to others daily. The end will take care of itself someday. And no one knows all the details anyway.
    JMO, I want to say I agree we should focus on Him and how He wants us to live, if we are doing what He wants continually we will be accepted upon His return no mattr if it is in our lifetime or not, however He says to watch for a reason...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hizikyah View Post
    Mat 24:42, "“Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Master is coming.”
    Mt5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

    Rev21:1-2, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

    Rom3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."

    Rom3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"


  18. #18
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billyd View Post
    Begin with verse 1 of Revelations and read through to chapter 22 verse 21. The book is sequential from start to finish.
    I would have to add "practically sequential". However, since the OP is concerned about the Rapture, we should note that the Rapture is not mentioned or described in Revelation.

    On the other hand there is absolutely no reason to be confused about the timing of the Rapture. It could occur at ANY TIME, but will in fact occur when God sees that the number of Gentiles which are to be within the Church is completed. Only God knows that number. This is called "the fulness of the Gentiles". So there is no need to speculate or set dates, or connect the Rapture to the Jewish feasts ans festivals.

    So how do we know that the Rapture could occur at any moment? Consider these verses seriously:

    Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. (Mt 24:42)

    Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. (Mt 24:44)

    Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh. (Mt 25:13)

    Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. (Mk 13:33)

    Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: (Mk 13:35)

    And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch. (Mk 13:37)

    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. (Lk 21:34)

    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Lk 21:36)

  19. #19
    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Greetings Hizikyah!

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation. For if we believe that יהושע died and rose again, so also Yah shall bring with Him those who sleep in יהושע. For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are left over at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep. Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Yah, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first. Then we, the living who are left over, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master. So, then, encourage one another with these words."

    1 Corinthians 15:51-55, “See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality. And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming. O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

    The two scriptures above are referring to the same event, the gathering of the church, dead and living. The scripture below is a separate event which is the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. The "trumpets" that you have highlighted in both 1 Thes.4:13-18, 1 Cor.15:52 are not the same trumpet as the one in Matt.24:31. You are simply interpreting them as being the same because thy both have the word "trumpet" in them.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

    Mat 24:29-31, “And immediately after the distress of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give its light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Aḏam shall appear in the heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth shall mourn, and they shall see the Son of Aḏam coming on the clouds of the heaven with power and much esteem. And He shall send His messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

    In 1 Thes.4:18, after Paul gives a detailed account of the gathering of the church, at the end he then says, "So, then, encourage one another with these words." Well, if you have the church being gathered after the tribulation, which is God's tribulation, His time of wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, then believers could not encourage one another with the hope of being gathered because you have us going through the wrath of God first, which scripture states that we are not appointed to suffer.

    Further more, the "Last trumpet" is a blessed event for the church, where the 7th trumpet of the trumpet judgments is a plague of wrath, but you have made them the same by your interpretation.

    If you do not recognize 1 Thes.4:13-18 vs. Matt.24:29-31 as being separate events, then your interpretation of end-time events will always be in error.

    The appearing of the Lord and our being gathered to Him is "the blessed hope," which it would not be if the church first has to go through God's wrath.


    Think about this: Every one who has come to Christ has been credited with righteousness and has been reconciled to God. Jesus has tasted the wrath of God for every believer, satisfying it completely. Therefore, when you say that we the church are to go through God's wrath, you are really not believing that God's wrath was poured out on Christ. You say you believe in what Christ did, but by your claim you deny it.


    The "last trumpet" is not the same as the "7th trumpet," as the only thing they have in common is the word "trumpet."

    When reading Matt.24 remember to always include the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments as taking place during that same time period, which is the wrath of God. Also by the mentioning of the abomination being set up in the temple, the offerings and sacrifices being stopped, those fleeing to the mountains of Judea, all of these are in reference to the nation Israel and not the church.

    In addition, Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of Matt.24:29-31 when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. Regarding this, if you will notice in Rev.19:6-8 the bride/church is shown to be in heaven receiving her fine linen, white and clean at the wedding of the Lamb, which demonstrates that the church is already in heaven during the time of God's wrath upon the earth. Then in Rev.14 it shows the armies of heaven following the Lord out of heaven wearing that same fine linen, white and clean that he bride/church will have just received, demonstrating that the bride/church is following the Lord out of heaven to the earth to end the age. Therefore, how can you say that the church is gathered when Christ returns to the earth, when scripture shows the church is following Christ out of heaven and returning to the earth with Him?

    You misapply scriptures by not recognizing the difference between the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. These are two different events.
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control ...

    I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit ...

    This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit ....

  20. #20
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joidevivre View Post
    You are young and I am old.
    There's a difference between "old" and "mature". Old is when you are around 99-100. So you are not old. And Moses was not even old at 120.

    And Moses was an hundred and twenty years old when he died: his eye was not dim, nor his natural force abated.

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