GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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You are assuming that the Jews were following God's Laws because you have bought into the insidious lie that the Pharisees were trying to earn Salvation by following God's Laws and not by following the "Commandments of Men" as Jesus instructed you.

Since you believe this lie, you assume the "Good News" is a Gospel which doesn't include the same Walk that Jesus Walked or the Apostles walked.

So when Paul made the statement about "living as the Jews do", you assume this means living in God's Commandments given for our Good by the Word which became Flesh, when it really means living in the religious traditions and "Laws" (Commandments of men as Jesus called it) created by the Mainstream preachers (Jews) of that time.

It would be like you saying Catholicism is a false preaching while you eat fish every Friday, buy Christmas gifts of a picture of a long haired pretty boy you call Jesus that you give to your friend while at Mass on Good Friday.
i used the quote because in it Peter and barnabas are referred to as Jews

and there is a group of believing gentiles


not because it had the phrase "live as the Jews do"
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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1 Peter 2:16, "Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of Yah."
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
1 Peter 2:16, "Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of Yah."
I like how the message puts it

Make the Master proud of you by being good citizens. Respect the authorities, whatever their level; they are God’s emissaries for keeping order. It is God’s will that by doing good, you might cure the ignorance of the fools who think you’re a danger to society. Exercise your freedom by serving God, not by breaking the rules. Treat everyone you meet with dignity. Love your spiritual family. Revere God. Respect the government.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter2&version=MSG
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
I am a logical person that is how I think.

So when the bible tells me that the law was given to show us our sin and need of a saviour, I ask myself how does this make sense.

If its sin to break the law before Jesus then its sin to break it after. Its sin or its not. But to say its sin before and not after is illogical.

Its like saying its sin to kill before not sin after, Its just unreasonable.

Now I know that most would then say well those were re-given. Well no actually they were given to show sin. They did not create sin they simply showed what was already there.

Really when it comes down to it this whole argument is about the Sabbath. But then I ask,

Was it sin before Jesus to not keep the Sabbath Holy? The answer is a resounding Yes.

This is the law and it is the law that makes who guilty?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

The Whole world Paul says, not just Jews.

This means that before Jesus and I mean before we accept Jesus today we can look a the law and see what sin is and part of that is the Sabbath.

So to now say that after one accepts Jesus what was sin before is not sin now is illogical and irrational. It defies reason.

That no one is saved by the law or the deeds of the law is a no brainier. but I am not talking about what saves. I am talking about the purpose of the law and how it defies common sense to argue its sin before and not after.

If its not after then it never was and thus should not be in the law because it does not show sin.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
I am a logical person that is how I think.

So when the bible tells me that the law was given to show us our sin and need of a saviour, I ask myself how does this make sense.

If its sin to break the law before Jesus then its sin to break it after. Its sin or its not. But to say its sin before and not after is illogical.

Its like saying its sin to kill before not sin after, Its just unreasonable.

Now I know that most would then say well those were re-given. Well no actually they were given to show sin. They did not create sin they simply showed what was already there.

Really when it comes down to it this whole argument is about the Sabbath. But then I ask,

Was it sin before Jesus to not keep the Sabbath Holy? The answer is a resounding Yes.

This is the law and it is the law that makes who guilty?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

The Whole world Paul says, not just Jews.

This means that before Jesus and I mean before we accept Jesus today we can look a the law and see what sin is and part of that is the Sabbath.

So to now say that after one accepts Jesus what was sin before is not sin now is illogical and irrational. It defies reason.

That no one is saved by the law or the deeds of the law is a no brainier. but I am not talking about what saves. I am talking about the purpose of the law and how it defies common sense to argue its sin before and not after.

If its not after then it never was and thus should not be in the law because it does not show sin.
Sin is when we not doing the will of God. Before Christ, it is sin not kill sabbath violator among Israelites

[h=1]Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Penalty for Violating the Sabbath[/h]32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.


After Christ it is sin to kill sabbath violator.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
3,555
1,057
113
Australia
The laws that govern us today in society are there to protect us from crimes that people selfishly practice. If there are a set of laws that are perfect or written by God to protect us and keep us safe from sin we would gladly accept them, true?

(Exodus 31:18; 32:16). The God of heaven wrote the Ten Commandments on tables of stone with His own finger.

“Sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4).
Sin is the breaking of God’s Ten Commandment law. The law of God is perfect (Psalm 19:7), and its principles cover every conceivable sin. The commandments cover “man’s all [the whole duty of man]” (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Nothing is left out.
God created us to experience happiness, peace, long life, contentment, accomplishment, and all the other great blessings for which our hearts long. God’s law is a road map that points out the right paths to follow in order to find this true, supreme happiness. “By the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20). “I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet’ ” (Romans 7:7).
“Happy is he who keeps the law” (Proverbs 29:18).
“Keep my commands; for length of days and long life and peace they will add to you” (Proverbs 3:1, 2).
The Law is to show us the difference between right and wrong. God’s law is like a mirror (James 1:23–25). It points out wrongdoing in our lives much like a mirror points out dirt on our faces. The only possible way for us to know we are sinning is to carefully check our lives by the mirror of God’s law. Peace for a mixed-up world can be found in God’s Ten Commandments. It tells us where to draw the line!

“The Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes [commandments] … for our good always” (Deuteronomy 6:24).
“Hold me up, and I shall be safe, and I shall observe Your statutes continually. You reject all those who stray from Your statutes” (Psalm 119:117, 118).
It protect us from danger and tragedy. God’s law is like a strong cage at the zoo that protects us from fierce, destructive animals. It protects us from falsehood, murder, idolatry, theft, and many other evils that destroy life, peace, and happiness. All good laws protect, and God’s law is no exception.

“By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3).
They helps us to know God.

The eternal principles within God’s law are written deep in every person’s nature by the God who created us. The writing might be dim and smudged, but it is still there. We were created to live in harmony with them. When we ignore them, the result is always tension, unrest, and tragedy—just as ignoring the rules for safe driving can lead to serious injury or death.

God’s law is exceedingly important to you personally.

“Speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:12).
Ten Commandment law is the standard by which God examines people in the heavenly judgment.
God’s law (the Ten Commandments) can't be changed or abolished.
“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).


The Bible is clear that the law of God cannot be changed. The commandments are revealed principles of God’s holy character and are the very foundation of His kingdom. They will be true as long as God exists.

God and His law have the exact same characteristics, the Ten Commandment law is actually God’s character in written form—written so that we can better comprehend God. It is no more possible to change God’s law than to pull God out of heaven and change Him. Jesus showed us what the law—that is, the pattern for holy living—looks like when expressed in human form. God’s character cannot change; therefore, neither can His law.
God and the law are Good - Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. - 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

God and the law are Holy - Isa 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Perfect - Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Pure - 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Just - Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
True - Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Spiritual - 1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Righteous - Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
Faithful - 1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Psa 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
Love - 1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Unchangeable - Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Everlasting - Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God. Psa 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
I am a logical person that is how I think.

So when the bible tells me that the law was given to show us our sin and need of a saviour, I ask myself how does this make sense.

If its sin to break the law before Jesus then its sin to break it after. Its sin or its not. But to say its sin before and not after is illogical.

Its like saying its sin to kill before not sin after, Its just unreasonable.

Now I know that most would then say well those were re-given. Well no actually they were given to show sin. They did not create sin they simply showed what was already there.

Really when it comes down to it this whole argument is about the Sabbath. But then I ask,

Was it sin before Jesus to not keep the Sabbath Holy? The answer is a resounding Yes.

This is the law and it is the law that makes who guilty?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God

The Whole world Paul says, not just Jews.

This means that before Jesus and I mean before we accept Jesus today we can look a the law and see what sin is and part of that is the Sabbath.

So to now say that after one accepts Jesus what was sin before is not sin now is illogical and irrational. It defies reason.

That no one is saved by the law or the deeds of the law is a no brainier. but I am not talking about what saves. I am talking about the purpose of the law and how it defies common sense to argue its sin before and not after.

If its not after then it never was and thus should not be in the law because it does not show sin.
"If its sin to break the law before Jesus then its sin to break it after. Its sin or its not. But to say its sin before and not after is illogical.*"

where i would see it differently is that we can't break the law if we are not under it
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
1,051
113
The laws that govern us today in society are there to protect us from crimes that people selfishly practice. If there are a set of laws that are perfect or written by God to protect us and keep us safe from sin we would gladly accept them, true?

(Exodus 31:18; 32:16). The God of heaven wrote the Ten Commandments on tables of stone with His own finger.

“Sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4).
Sin is the breaking of God’s Ten Commandment law. The law of God is perfect (Psalm 19:7), and its principles cover every conceivable sin. The commandments cover “man’s all [the whole duty of man]” (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Nothing is left out.
God created us to experience happiness, peace, long life, contentment, accomplishment, and all the other great blessings for which our hearts long. God’s law is a road map that points out the right paths to follow in order to find this true, supreme happiness. “By the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20). “I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet’ ” (Romans 7:7).
“Happy is he who keeps the law” (Proverbs 29:18).
“Keep my commands; for length of days and long life and peace they will add to you” (Proverbs 3:1, 2).
The Law is to show us the difference between right and wrong. God’s law is like a mirror (James 1:23–25). It points out wrongdoing in our lives much like a mirror points out dirt on our faces. The only possible way for us to know we are sinning is to carefully check our lives by the mirror of God’s law. Peace for a mixed-up world can be found in God’s Ten Commandments. It tells us where to draw the line!

“The Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes [commandments] … for our good always” (Deuteronomy 6:24).
“Hold me up, and I shall be safe, and I shall observe Your statutes continually. You reject all those who stray from Your statutes” (Psalm 119:117, 118).
It protect us from danger and tragedy. God’s law is like a strong cage at the zoo that protects us from fierce, destructive animals. It protects us from falsehood, murder, idolatry, theft, and many other evils that destroy life, peace, and happiness. All good laws protect, and God’s law is no exception.

“By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3).
They helps us to know God.

The eternal principles within God’s law are written deep in every person’s nature by the God who created us. The writing might be dim and smudged, but it is still there. We were created to live in harmony with them. When we ignore them, the result is always tension, unrest, and tragedy—just as ignoring the rules for safe driving can lead to serious injury or death.

God’s law is exceedingly important to you personally.

“Speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:12).
Ten Commandment law is the standard by which God examines people in the heavenly judgment.
God’s law (the Ten Commandments) can't be changed or abolished.
“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).


The Bible is clear that the law of God cannot be changed. The commandments are revealed principles of God’s holy character and are the very foundation of His kingdom. They will be true as long as God exists.

God and His law have the exact same characteristics, the Ten Commandment law is actually God’s character in written form—written so that we can better comprehend God. It is no more possible to change God’s law than to pull God out of heaven and change Him. Jesus showed us what the law—that is, the pattern for holy living—looks like when expressed in human form. God’s character cannot change; therefore, neither can His law.
God and the law are Good - Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. - 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

God and the law are Holy - Isa 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Perfect - Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Pure - 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Just - Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
True - Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Spiritual - 1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Righteous - Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
Faithful - 1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Psa 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
Love - 1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Unchangeable - Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Everlasting - Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God. Psa 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


"If there are a set of laws that are perfect or written by God to protect us and keep us safe from sin we would gladly accept them, true?"

as Christians, we are kept safe from sin by walking by the Spirit

Galatians 5: 16. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
"If its sin to break the law before Jesus then its sin to break it after. Its sin or its not. But to say its sin before and not after is illogical.*"

where i would see it differently is that we can't break the law if we are not under it
Yes, you are correct. A dead person, one "under" the Law, cannot praise God or disobey God. They are dead, and dead people can do nothing. Only a living person can choose to honor God, or disobey God.


This is why Paul said: "1 What shall we say then? Shall we(Choose to) continue in sin, that grace may abound?2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And again.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,(Dead) but under grace.(Alive)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (Dead) but under grace?(Alive) God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Obedience to what, man or God.

Gotime understands that "under the law" in this context means dead, killed by the law, the wages of sin is death.

If an action killed me once, (Sin) and I was resurrected by the power of a merciful God, (Grace) should I continue in the same action that killed me in the first place? Paul says God forbid.

No matter how much you all preach against it, there is nothing you can do to erase the Biblical fact that Jesus, The Word which became Flesh, created His Sabbath for man and placed it in the same instructions as the First and Greatest Commandment. To reject any of these instructions is sin. It was then and it is now. There is no where in the entire Bible that "changes" this Biblical fact.

So given this evidence I think Gotime is right on when he says if it was a sin to reject His Sabbath before, it is a sin reject His Sabbath today.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
=Dan_473;3547642
]"If there are a set of laws that are perfect or written by God to protect us and keep us safe from sin we would gladly accept them, true?"
Not true if one relies on the Words of Jesus, the Word which became Flesh.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD (Word which became Flesh), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Isn't that what "Many" who come in His name are saying? "we will not walk therein"

as Christians, we are kept safe from sin by walking by the Spirit
The Law IS Spiritual. Jesus walked in this Spiritual Law, we are all told to "walk in it" even as He did. If a man refuses to follow His Words and Walk in them, even as He did, then how can he can you even know what it means to walk in the Spirit? He can't as Paul told the Colossians.

Col. 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

He explains this same phenomenon in Rom. 1.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, (worthy of being faithful to and obedient to) neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

It's like the phrase "You had to be there" to understand. And it takes Faith in The Word which became Flesh to go there.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
11,769
1,370
113
The laws that govern us today in society are there to protect us from crimes that people selfishly practice. If there are a set of laws that are perfect or written by God to protect us and keep us safe from sin we would gladly accept them, true?

(Exodus 31:18; 32:16). The God of heaven wrote the Ten Commandments on tables of stone with His own finger.

“Sin is lawlessness” (1 John 3:4).
Sin is the breaking of God’s Ten Commandment law. The law of God is perfect (Psalm 19:7), and its principles cover every conceivable sin. The commandments cover “man’s all [the whole duty of man]” (Ecclesiastes 12:13). Nothing is left out.
God created us to experience happiness, peace, long life, contentment, accomplishment, and all the other great blessings for which our hearts long. God’s law is a road map that points out the right paths to follow in order to find this true, supreme happiness. “By the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20). “I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, ‘You shall not covet’ ” (Romans 7:7).
“Happy is he who keeps the law” (Proverbs 29:18).
“Keep my commands; for length of days and long life and peace they will add to you” (Proverbs 3:1, 2).
The Law is to show us the difference between right and wrong. God’s law is like a mirror (James 1:23–25). It points out wrongdoing in our lives much like a mirror points out dirt on our faces. The only possible way for us to know we are sinning is to carefully check our lives by the mirror of God’s law. Peace for a mixed-up world can be found in God’s Ten Commandments. It tells us where to draw the line!

“The Lord commanded us to observe all these statutes [commandments] … for our good always” (Deuteronomy 6:24).
“Hold me up, and I shall be safe, and I shall observe Your statutes continually. You reject all those who stray from Your statutes” (Psalm 119:117, 118).
It protect us from danger and tragedy. God’s law is like a strong cage at the zoo that protects us from fierce, destructive animals. It protects us from falsehood, murder, idolatry, theft, and many other evils that destroy life, peace, and happiness. All good laws protect, and God’s law is no exception.

“By this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments” (1 John 2:3).
They helps us to know God.

The eternal principles within God’s law are written deep in every person’s nature by the God who created us. The writing might be dim and smudged, but it is still there. We were created to live in harmony with them. When we ignore them, the result is always tension, unrest, and tragedy—just as ignoring the rules for safe driving can lead to serious injury or death.

God’s law is exceedingly important to you personally.

“Speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty” (James 2:12).
Ten Commandment law is the standard by which God examines people in the heavenly judgment.
God’s law (the Ten Commandments) can't be changed or abolished.
“It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail” (Luke 16:17).
“My covenant I will not break, nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips” (Psalm 89:34).
“All His precepts [commandments] are sure. They stand fast forever and ever” (Psalm 111:7, 8).


The Bible is clear that the law of God cannot be changed. The commandments are revealed principles of God’s holy character and are the very foundation of His kingdom. They will be true as long as God exists.

God and His law have the exact same characteristics, the Ten Commandment law is actually God’s character in written form—written so that we can better comprehend God. It is no more possible to change God’s law than to pull God out of heaven and change Him. Jesus showed us what the law—that is, the pattern for holy living—looks like when expressed in human form. God’s character cannot change; therefore, neither can His law.
God and the law are Good - Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. - 1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

God and the law are Holy - Isa 5:16 But the LORD of hosts shall be exalted in judgment, and God that is holy shall be sanctified in righteousness. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Perfect - Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Pure - 1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
Just - Deu 32:4 He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
True - Joh 3:33 He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. Psa 19:9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
Spiritual - 1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Righteous - Jer 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. Psa 119:172 My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.
Faithful - 1Co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Psa 119:86 All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
Love - 1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Unchangeable - Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Everlasting - Gen 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God. Psa 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. 8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.


all God law is perfect

[h=1]Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Penalty for Violating the Sabbath[/h]32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

let me repeat verse 36 : so as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with the stones and he die.

perfect Lord make perfect command why don't you obey?

 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Yes, you are correct. A dead person, one "under" the Law, cannot praise God or disobey God. They are dead, and dead people can do nothing. Only a living person can choose to honor God, or disobey God.


This is why Paul said: "1 What shall we say then? Shall we(Choose to) continue in sin, that grace may abound?2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And again.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,(Dead) but under grace.(Alive)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (Dead) but under grace?(Alive) God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Obedience to what, man or God.

Gotime understands that "under the law" in this context means dead, killed by the law, the wages of sin is death.

If an action killed me once, (Sin) and I was resurrected by the power of a merciful God, (Grace) should I continue in the same action that killed me in the first place? Paul says God forbid.

No matter how much you all preach against it, there is nothing you can do to erase the Biblical fact that Jesus, The Word which became Flesh, created His Sabbath for man and placed it in the same instructions as the First and Greatest Commandment. To reject any of these instructions is sin. It was then and it is now. There is no where in the entire Bible that "changes" this Biblical fact.

So given this evidence I think Gotime is right on when he says if it was a sin to reject His Sabbath before, it is a sin reject His Sabbath today.

sabbath law has been fulfill, to observe sabbath to day simply come to Jesus. If sabbath OT same with sabbath after cross, why don't you not obey verse below ?

Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)

Penalty for Violating the Sabbath

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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sabbath law has been fulfill, to observe sabbath to day simply come to Jesus. If sabbath OT same with sabbath after cross, why don't you not obey verse below ?

Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)

Penalty for Violating the Sabbath

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Your unbelief in or lack of understanding of God's Word does not make God's Words void. If you don't know how Paul died, or who brought His the Law that killed him, I don't know what to tell you.
 

Jackson123

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Feb 6, 2014
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Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

Your unbelief in or lack of understanding of God's Word does not make God's Words void. If you don't know how Paul died, or who brought His the Law that killed him, I don't know what to tell you.
You try to tell me that after Paul die because of commandment, Paul doing commandment?

than you want to obey commandment after you die too?

then obey this commandment.

[h=1]Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)[/h][h=3]Penalty for Violating the Sabbath[/h]32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
 

Shamah

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Jan 6, 2018
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:22-24, “For the Father judges no one, but has given all the judgment to the Son, that all should value the Son even as they value the Father. He who does not value the Son does not value the Father who sent Him.Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me possesses everlasting life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 5:28-30, “Do not be astonished at this-for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice, and will come forth. Those who have practiced righteousness will be resurrected in order to live; and those who have practiced wickedness will be resurrected in order to be damned.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Isaiah 11:1-10, “An
d a Twig shall come forth from the stump of Yishai, and a Branch from his roots shall be fruitful. The Spirit of יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]shall rest upon Him – the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and shall make Him breathe in the fear of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]. And He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears. But with righteousness He shall judge the poor, and shall decide with straightness for the meek ones of the earth, and shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth (Rev 19:15, Hebrews 4:12-13), and slay the wrong with the breath of His lips. And righteousness shall be the girdle of His loins, and trustworthiness the girdle of His waist. And a wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and a leopard lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together, and a little child leads them. And cow and bear shall feed, their young ones lie down together, and a lion eat straw like an ox. And the nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, and the weaned child shall put his hand in the adder’s den. They do no evil nor destroy in all My set-apart mountain, for the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a Root of Yishai, standing as a banner to the people. Unto Him the nations shall seek, and His rest shall be esteem.”[/FONT][/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 8:26-29, “I have much to say and to judge concerning you. But He who sent Me is true, and what I heard from Him, these Words I speak to the world. They did not know that He spoke to them of the Father. So יהושע said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Aḏam, then you shall know that I am He, and that I do none at all of Myself, but as My Father taught Me, these words I speak. And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do what pleases Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 12:48-50, "12:48, "“He who rejects Me, and does not receive My Words, has one who judges him: the Word that I have spoken shall judge him in the last day. Because I spoke not from Myself, but the Father who sent Me has given Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, as the Father has said to Me, so I speak.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 7:16-17, "יהושע answered them and said, If anyone desires to do His desire, he shall know concerning the teaching, whether it is from YHWH, or whether I speak from Myself."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 5:25-30, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of YHWH. And those having heard shall live. For as the Father possesses life in Himself, so He gave also to the Son to possess life in Himself, and He has given Him authority also to do judgment, because He is the Son of Aḏam. Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the tombs shall hear His voice, and shall come forth – those who have done right, to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil matters, to a resurrection of judgment. Of Myself I am unable to do any matter. As I hear, I judge, and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own desire, but the desire of the Father who sent Me."[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע says this in seven places in the Book of John: Joh 3:34, Joh 7:16, Joh 8:28, Joh 8:40, Joh 12:49, Joh 14:24, Joh 17:8. See also Deu 18:15-20."7:17, "“[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]d Footnote: dSee also Joh 3:18-19, Joh 7:16."12:49, "“[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Footnote: fSee Mat Joh 19:17 and Joh 3:36."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without the Law, will also perish without the Law, and as many as have sinned in the Law, will be judged by the Law.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 13:41-43, "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Corinthians 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Messiah, that each one may receive his reward according to what he has done in the body, whether righteous or evil.”[/FONT]


“[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]judgment seat” is word #G968 - béma: a step, raised place, by impl. A tribunal, Original Word: βῆμα, ατος, τό, Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter, Transliteration: béma, Phonetic Spelling: (bay'-ma), Short Definition: the space covered by a step of the foot, a tribunal, Definition: an elevated place ascended by steps, a throne, tribunal.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matthew 25:31-34, “And when the Son of Aḏam comes in His esteem, and all the set-apart messengers with Him, then He shall sit on the throne of His esteem. And all the nations shall be gathered before Him, and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats. And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the Sovereign shall say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the reign prepared for you from the foundation of the world.”[/FONT]
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
You try to tell me that after Paul die because of commandment, Paul doing commandment?

than you want to obey commandment after you die too?

then obey this commandment.

Numbers 15:32-36 New King James Version (NKJV)

Penalty for Violating the Sabbath

32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the Sabbath day. 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him.
35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” 36 So, as the Lord commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.
A dead person can not obey or disobey. They are dead.
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
9,054
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Yes, you are correct. A dead person, one "under" the Law, cannot praise God or disobey God. They are dead, and dead people can do nothing. Only a living person can choose to honor God, or disobey God.


This is why Paul said: "1 What shall we say then? Shall we(Choose to) continue in sin, that grace may abound?2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

And again.

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law,(Dead) but under grace.(Alive)

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, (Dead) but under grace?(Alive) God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? Obedience to what, man or God.

Gotime understands that "under the law" in this context means dead, killed by the law, the wages of sin is death.

If an action killed me once, (Sin) and I was resurrected by the power of a merciful God, (Grace) should I continue in the same action that killed me in the first place? Paul says God forbid.

No matter how much you all preach against it, there is nothing you can do to erase the Biblical fact that Jesus, The Word which became Flesh, created His Sabbath for man and placed it in the same instructions as the First and Greatest Commandment. To reject any of these instructions is sin. It was then and it is now. There is no where in the entire Bible that "changes" this Biblical fact.

So given this evidence I think Gotime is right on when he says if it was a sin to reject His Sabbath before, it is a sin reject His Sabbath today.
'..."under the law" in this context means dead, killed by the law, the wages of sin is death.*'

i see it differently

Galatians 4: 4. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law


Jesus was not born dead or killed by the law
 

Dan_473

Senior Member
Mar 11, 2014
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=Dan_473;3547642

Not true if one relies on the Words of Jesus, the Word which became Flesh.

Jer. 6:16 Thus saith the LORD (Word which became Flesh), Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Isn't that what "Many" who come in His name are saying? "we will not walk therein"



The Law IS Spiritual. Jesus walked in this Spiritual Law, we are all told to "walk in it" even as He did. If a man refuses to follow His Words and Walk in them, even as He did, then how can he can you even know what it means to walk in the Spirit? He can't as Paul told the Colossians.

Col. 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

He explains this same phenomenon in Rom. 1.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, (worthy of being faithful to and obedient to) neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

It's like the phrase "You had to be there" to understand. And it takes Faith in The Word which became Flesh to go there.
"Not true if one relies on the Words of Jesus, the Word which became Flesh."

i believe the quote that you are replying 'Not true' is from TMS