GOD'S SABBATH AND THE REAL TRUTH OF COL 2:14-17 WHO DO WE BELIEVE GOD or MAN?

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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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This seems to be a major road block for people, why is it that people can't see that you can keep the 7th day Sabbath and not be a works based Christian?

Keeping the 7th day Sabbath is no more works than keeping everyday or any day. If its works to keep the 7th then its works to keep the 1st etc.

The only difference I see between the 1st and the 7th is only one requires faith. Faith that God's word is true when it says He blessed the 7th and set the 7th apart for holy use. If you don't believe those words then there is absolutely no reason to keep the 7th day Sabbath, Unless your a works based Christian and do so simply to be saved or because the letter of the law said so.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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I should also say that I can see how someone would keep Sunday the 1st day by faith also if they believe the bible teaches it is a Sabbath. But I have seen no such teaching in the scriptures so I can't do that.

But here is a point, in the same way people keep Sunday by faith and not by works so do we keep Sabbath by faith and not by works.

There is no difference except in the way we decide which is Gods Sabbath. Both say the word is their root for faith in keeping the day they keep.

But for me there is only one day the bible talks about as Sabbath, that is the 7th day and thus I keep it by faith not by works.
 
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they do this because its nearly impossible to deceive anyone with a 100% lie
Please once again, what lie? Do you know the Word of God Snoozy? If you do not know God's Word how can you know God's truth if you follow the teachings and traditions of men?
 
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There are basically three major groups or movements that teach that People can please God by their own efforts. The Seventh day Adventists Started by E. G. White in the late 19th century. All three movements are the products of people teaching against the beliefs of mainstream Christian belief and practice.
Hello MarcR,
Can you please explain your claims above? Do you mean God' looks down from Heaven and sees His people who are following His Word by their Faith that works by LOVE?

Psalm 149
4
, For the LORD takes pleasure in His people; He will beautify the afflicted ones with salvation.

Or are you spreading misinformation like some others here and seeking to say that those above believe they are saved by the works of the Law?

Thanks for the clarification. It would be quite sad to think you are partaking of these lies.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.
 
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It's absolutely true.
Yea, NOPE it's not at all. Prove your claim? Why should we believe you over the Word of God? Because it is written; Let God be true and every man a liar; as it is written, That thou might be justified in thy sayings, and might overcome when you are judged (Romans 3:4). Let's talk scripture.........

It is true that the love of God has been poured out into the hearts of believers by the Holy Spirit who was given to us (Romans 5:5).
This is true but God ONLY gives the Holy Spirit to those who OBEY him not those that are practicing KNOWN sin and breaking the commandments of God in order to follow the traditions of men. As it is written.........

Acts 17
30,
At the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now <when a knowledge of the truth is come> commands all men every where to repent: 31, Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead

Links to ......

Hebrews 10

26, For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,27, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

God ONLY gives the Holy Spirit to those who OBEY HIM. Those that are practicing KNOWN SIN have neither seen him or KNOW him......

Acts 5
29,
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to OBEY God rather than men.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31, Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32, And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him.

links to............

1 John 3
6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.
7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

Receiving God's Holy Spirit is linked to faith, BELIEVING God's Word that has the fruit of OBEDIENCE. Repentance (turning away from SIN which is breaking God's Law; James 2:11; 1 John 3:4) is the conditions for receiving God's Spirit.

Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Act 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

If you practicing KNOWN SIN you do NOT know him who LOVES ALL and need to seek him......

1 John 3
6, Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins hath not seen him, neither known him.
7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and like any of the ten, if we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

There is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to worship God on Sunday in it's place.

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Galatians 3:24 - Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
God's Word is always true. We are indeed only saved by grace through Faith and not of ourselves it is a GIFT of God and not of Work's lest any man should boast. Now does this scripture now say that once we come to Christ we are now free to break God's Law because we are no longer CONDEMNED by it because we have no received FORGIVENESS?

Romans 3
31,
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

If you break any of God's LAW then you are guilty of SIN and are back where you started "Under the LAW"

Galatians 2
17, But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18, For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and like any of the ten, if we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

There is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to worship God on Sunday in it's place.

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?

Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
And yet you have not addressed the OP with the 200+ scriptures the disagree with your interpretation of 3 scripture? The Sabbath was never a Shadow of anything because it is not for remission of sin and it part of the FINISHED work of creation so has never pointed to an UNFINISHED work and was given to mankind BEFORE SIN entered the world so NOT part of the plan of salvation. IT is one of the 10 commandments given by GOD to give us a knowledge of GOOD and if we break it Evil. It is the standard of SIN and RIGHTEOUSNESS in the Old and NEW Covenants and the judgement to come and as God's Word says is FOREVER. Read the OP and refute it if you can?

The Law of God (10 commandments) which includes the 4th commandment is the work of God (Exodus 32:16) whatsoever God does is forever nothing can be added to it or taken away (Ecclesiastes 3:14). God's Law is perfect converting the soul (Psalms 19:7). It is the very standard of the Old and New Covenants (Exodus 20:1:17, Hebrews 8:10-12). God's Law was spoken by God himself to His people (Exodus 20:1-22). Jesus says Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away (Matthew 25:35). Gods Law is still in force today (Psalms 111:7-8, Revelation 12:17, 14:12, 22:14, 1 John 3:5-8, 1 John 2:3-4 etc.). The Law of God reveals sin to us so we can see ourselves as we truly are sinners in need of a Saviour (James 2:11; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20; 1 John 3:4). It is the great standard of the judgement (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14, James 2:10-12, 1 John 3:4, Acts 17:31). God's Law is our teacher revealing sin and the character of God and brings us to Christ at the foot of the cross that we might be saved by faith by Him who loves us and washed us in His own blood (Galatians 3:24; Revelation 1:5).

You just proved my point about professing to teach salvation by grace through faith, but then redefining this in a way that is contrary to New Testament doctrine. It's still grace plus law, faith plus works/subtle mixture of law and grace no matter how much you try to sugar coat it.
Your house just came tumbling down and great was the fall thereof none of your accusations are true at all. Could you please share with us your view on what you believe the Old Covenant is and the New Covenant is and the difference between the two covenants? This may be a good starting point for discussion.... I know this post will be ignored though it is ok I have provided my duty of LOVE to those that do not believe.
 
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valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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I should also say that I can see how someone would keep Sunday the 1st day by faith also if they believe the bible teaches it is a Sabbath. But I have seen no such teaching in the scriptures so I can't do that.

But here is a point, in the same way people keep Sunday by faith and not by works so do we keep Sabbath by faith and not by works.
Most of us have no objection to that.

There is no difference except in the way we decide which is Gods Sabbath. Both say the word is their root for faith in keeping the day they keep.
Our gripe is against those who make it God's Law for all.

But for me there is only one day the bible talks about as Sabbath, that is the 7th day and thus I keep it by faith not by works.
And if the time line is changed in the right way tomorrow you will find you were keeping the 1st day all the time LOL
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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I hate the way people separate the 4th commandment from the other 9, and say it is different and not morally a law for us today. Morally it is good to honor Gods name and not take it in vain, it is good to honor our parents and to not lie or steal, it is good to obey God and not bow down to any graven images and than people say do remember the Sabbath it isn't a law for us to keep today.
the Sabbath should be honored not to be saved but because we love God. For the same reason we keep the other 9 commandments.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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Most of us have no objection to that.
Our gripe is against those who make it God's Law for all.
And if the time line is changed in the right way tomorrow you will find you were keeping the 1st day all the time LOL
The sad part is that it is God's Law for all and you need to be aware that you will be judged by it. You can read about it here Exodus 20:8-11 from Exodus 20:1-17

God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) and like any of the ten, if we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)

There is not one scripture in ALL of God's WORD that says God's 4th commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to worship God on Sunday in it's place.

Sunday worship is a tradition and teaching of man that has lead many to break the commandments of God. Jesus says that if we follow the traditions of man that break the commandments of God we are not following God (Matthew 15:3-9)

Who should we follow the teachings and traditions of men or the Word of God? Who should we believe the Words of men or the Word of God?
 
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gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
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Most of us have no objection to that.



Our gripe is against those who make it God's Law for all.



And if the time line is changed in the right way tomorrow you will find you were keeping the 1st day all the time LOL
Ok I get that but here is a problem, Everyone draws it back to works when that is not the issue at all. The issue really is which one does the bible support. Is it the 7th day or the 1st or both or does not matter. This is the issue and every one needs to be convinced of their position in their own mind.

But again instead of keeping it there it always goes back to accusations of works, when that is not the issue at all.

As far as the time line issue. For us its not an issue as God said the 7th day not Saturday. So whichever is the 7th we worship on.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Could you please share with us your view on what you believe the Old Covenant is and the New Covenant is and the difference between the two covenants? This may be a good starting point for discussion.... I know this post will be ignored though it is ok I have provided my duty of LOVE to those that do not believe.
The old covenant is the covenant of Sinai The New covenant is the covenant of Christ, foreshadowed in the days of the old

The old was made with physical Israel, the New with spiritual Israel (the true church).

The old was temporary, the New everlasting.
 
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The old covenant is the covenant of Sinai The New covenant is the covenant of Christ, foreshadowed in the days of the old. The old was made with physical Israel, the New with spiritual Israel (the true church).
The old was temporary, the New everlasting.
Ok valiant, maybe it is good to discuss what is the Old Covenant to you and what is the New Covenant mean to you and what is the difference between the two covenants? Maybe you can answer this as I do not think MMD wants to and we can share God's Word and see where it leads us.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
I hate the way people separate the 4th commandment from the other 9, and say it is different and not morally a law for us today. Morally it is good to honor Gods name and not take it in vain, it is good to honor our parents and to not lie or steal, it is good to obey God and not bow down to any graven images and than people say do remember the Sabbath it isn't a law for us to keep today.
the Sabbath should be honored not to be saved but because we love God. For the same reason we keep the other 9 commandments.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Well it's really a do or don't thing,every commandment is important,but due to Jesus we don't die if we don't observe to do them,to keep them is spiritually good,but trying to upheave one commandment over another,as if it is more needed is rather silly,though two commandments are called the greatest by Jesus"love God with all thy heart,soul,mind,and strength" and "love thy neighbor as yourself",these two it makes sense to hold them in a higher regard but commandments like sabbath keeping,aren't ordered as "higher" or "needed".
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Ok I get that but here is a problem, Everyone draws it back to works when that is not the issue at all.
It is the issue with hebrew roots


The issue really is which one does the bible support.
The Bible supports the Sabbath for the old covenant only.

Is it the 7th day or the 1st or both or does not matter. This is the issue and every one needs to be convinced of their position in their own mind.

But again instead of keeping it there it always goes back to accusations of works, when that is not the issue at all.
It may not be with you, but its different for Hebrew roots people and the like

As far as the time line issue. For us its not an issue as God said the 7th day not Saturday. So whichever is the 7th we worship on.
So if it changes you will change with it? Good on you.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
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It is the issue with hebrew roots




The Bible supports the Sabbath for the old covenant only.



It may not be with you, but its different for Hebrew roots people and the like



So if it changes you will change with it? Good on you.
I don't know enough about Hebrew roots to be honest. I do know they teach some things I don't agree with.

As Far as the Sabbath old covenant only I disagree as it is before the Old Covenant was given. But I get that for you see it that way. That is why I don't doubt that you and many who worship on other days are walking by faith. Many don't get that point, that we can think your wrong and not think you are lost at the same time.

We are not saved by being right we are saved by trusting in Jesus and the truth he reveals to us in Him. You know the truth shall set you free n all. All truth is in Christ who is the truth. And it is precisely that reason that I keep the 7th day Sabbath. Because the Truth of the 7th day and creation is found in Jesus the creator.

As for the change of time line, Yes I would change with it as for me its the 7th day whatever day the 7th happens to be is the day I enter into His rest from my weekly labour. But from sin and condemnation I rest in His Death and Resurrection at all times every day.
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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I hate the way people separate the 4th commandment from the other 9, and say it is different and not morally a law for us today. Morally it is good to honor Gods name and not take it in vain, it is good to honor our parents and to not lie or steal, it is good to obey God and not bow down to any graven images and than people say do remember the Sabbath it isn't a law for us to keep today.
the Sabbath should be honored not to be saved but because we love God. For the same reason we keep the other 9 commandments.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
But the Sabbath day was strictly for Israel and was in commemoration of the manna (Exod 16). It never occurred before that. We observe a day to the giving of the Bread of life.

Jesus said 'keep MY commandments.' In all His lists of commandments He never mentioned the Sabbath,
 

valiant

Senior Member
Mar 22, 2015
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Originally Posted by valiant
The old covenant is the covenant of Sinai The New covenant is the covenant of Christ, foreshadowed in the days of the old. The old was made with physical Israel, the New with spiritual Israel (the true church).
The old was temporary, the New everlasting
Ok valiant, maybe it is good to discuss what is the Old Covenant to you and what is the New Covenant mean to you and what is the difference between the two covenants? Maybe you can answer this as I do not think MMD wants to and we can share God's Word and see where it leads us.
I will discuss if you keep it short. If you produce lists of meaningless verses I will back out.

The old covenant is in Exodus 20. It was specifically a covenant with Israel. The ten words were an integral part of that covenant and were then expanded on (eg Ex 21-25). It was sealed by the blood of bulls and goats.

The new covenant was made by Christ with His church in view, It was the new covenant in His blood shed for many for the remission of sins. We have entered into the new and not the old,
 
Jun 5, 2017
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I will discuss if you keep it short. If you produce lists of meaningless verses I will back out.

The old covenant is in Exodus 20. It was specifically a covenant with Israel. The ten words were an integral part of that covenant and were then expanded on (eg Ex 21-25). It was sealed by the blood of bulls and goats.

The new covenant was made by Christ with His church in view, It was the new covenant in His blood shed for many for the remission of sins. We have entered into the new and not the old,
Hello valiant we should discuss it. I will always add scripture in support of my statements however. If you choose not to it is up to you but the scripture supports what you are saying. There is no such thing as meaningless scripture. Do you mind me using scripture?

In your post above you suggest that the 10 commandments is the old covenant. Is this all there is to the Old Covenant in your view?
 

Beez

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2017
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So you would call obeying the law not works?
I would call obeying the Law an indication of salvation. When we become true believers, our desires and actions change. We love the Law, as David says. We love doing it. We do our best to obey Adonai. But our works are mere indications of being "born again," and are not so impressive to Adonai as to change His mind in any way.

3) The Hebrew Roots movement Started by Rico Cortes less than 25 years ago
Yeah, not into that either, but I've been accused.
 

Beez

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2017
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Hello valiant we should discuss it. I will always add scripture in support of my statements however. If you choose not to it is up to you but the scripture supports what you are saying. There is no such thing as meaningless scripture. Do you mind me using scripture?

In your post above you suggest that the 10 commandments is the old covenant. Is this all there is to the Old Covenant in your view?
COOL! I can read this!! :)
 

Beez

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2017
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But the Sabbath day was strictly for Israel and was in commemoration of the manna (Exod 16). It never occurred before that. We observe a day to the giving of the Bread of life.

Jesus said 'keep MY commandments.' In all His lists of commandments He never mentioned the Sabbath,
In my opinion, it was for all believers who tied themselves to the nation of Israel, according to the Scriptures. Further, in my opinion, it is a gift to His followers, according to the Scriptures. And -- in my opinion :) -- our L-RD did Sabbath and told us, "Do as I do." I don't want to miss any gift of His!