Signs ...Seek after as a source of faith or observe?

[Desertsrose]

Which is no sign at all, they cant even see it.

Hi Rokurac,

This is incorrect. Those during the time of Jesus were EYE witnesses as to the fact that like Jonah being in the belly of the whale, so too Jesus would be in the belly of the earth and rise on the third day. They saw the stone rolled away and Jesus wasn't there; he had risen. They SAW this with their eyes.

We who are generations later believe by faith. The nation of Israel SAW with their eyes that Jesus had risen on the 3rd day.

 

[Desertsrose]

There is a world of difference between seeking after a sign in order to believe, and observing signs like in parables where the spiritual understanding is hid.

There are signs alone for observation, and signs and or with wonders .Wonder is the unseen faith principle found below....a must when rightly dividing the word of God in the parables. .(without parables Christ spoke not)

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Most we distinguish the difference between sign and a sign and or with wonders seeing the unbelieving Jews required one before they would believe making the assurance of the cross without affect.(sign and wonders gospel )

Just as the Greek said show me God by our intellect, after the philosophies of men ,the wisdom of this worlds making the assurance of the cross without affect (the intellectual gospel )

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:22

How would those from what some call the "sign gifts" camp understand the difference? No difference? Is the difference intellectual, philosophical?

​Hi garee,

I'm not really sure I understand what you're trying to say here either. I'm not seeing what you're trying to compare.

What I will say about the scriptures you used though is that it seems you're taking those scriptures out of their context.

Also, signs wonders and miracles were done by the apostles and as far as I can tell, these were done where others could see something happen such as a healing or a demon being cast out.

I don't believe that God has put a stop to them. I don't follow the WOF, but that doesn't mean that the gifts have ended because the WOF abuses the gifts. God can and does and will do what He wants and to say that God doesn't ever do a sign, a gift or a wonder would cause us to say that God is impotent when He isn't.

He's doing signs and wonders all over the world. At the time of the tribulation, the two witnesses will be doing signs, wonders and miracles.

God's arm is not short. He can and will do whatever He so desires. We have never been told that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

 

[dcontroversal]

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

 

[garee]

​Hi garee,

I'm not really sure I understand what you're trying to say here either. I'm not seeing what you're trying to compare.

What I will say about the scriptures you used though is that it seems you're taking those scriptures out of their context.

Also, signs wonders and miracles were done by the apostles and as far as I can tell, these were done where others could see something happen such as a healing or a demon being cast out.

I don't believe that God has put a stop to them. I don't follow the WOF, but that doesn't mean that the gifts have ended because the WOF abuses the gifts. God can and does and will do what He wants and to say that God doesn't ever do a sign, a gift or a wonder would cause us to say that God is impotent when He isn't.

He's doing signs and wonders all over the world. At the time of the tribulation, the two witnesses will be doing signs, wonders and miracles.

God's arm is not short. He can and will do whatever He so desires. We have never been told that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

Can you see that like the outward non converted Jews who require a sign before they will believe they make the cross without effect just as in the same way natural man as a Greek does the same with wisdom. They are both speaking of natural man by two views. One says show me God by seeking after a sign used as a wonder gospel and the other say show me God through the intellectual gospel as a philosophy of man after the wisdom of this world

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;1Co 1:22

Christ informs us it is an evil generation that does seek after them and no new sign will be given to seek after. Observe yes seek after as a source of faith (the unseen) no.

Their are sign of observation like in Mathew 24 . They are not considered wonders like the fulfillment of the Jonas parable but observations. Christ will come as a thief in the night. The Christian are warned of it but it does not make it faith principle as to the day hour or minute..Christ will come as a thief in the night no one knows the day or hour or year..In the end there is no date we could apply .It would appose walking by sight.

The Mathew signs that did not have a direct goal as to when the last day would be would be the same as with Noah .There was no goal as to a day our hour in respect to the end of the matter.. He could of came a hundred years after the Ark was completed .It was a sign to observe but not a sign required to know with precision as the end of the known world .

Things will be happening as normal for a fallen corrupted world just as in the days of Noah . The wickedness of man was great in the earth, just as today and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually, wars and rumors of war nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there were famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All hose were for Noah as they are for us the beginning of sorrows. Not the end .It will come as a thief in the might just as it was in the time of Noah. There was no sign and wonder that he could seek after as a deadline. He was not informed after a 120 years, two days and three hours he will come as a thief in the night.

In that way fools rush in where wise men who walk by the faith of Christ would never thread. It the same with exact numbers of people . Give a number it will be filled outwardly .Like the 1444,000 used to represent a whole. Some turn that into a sign that causes a wonder or a marvel. No need to wonder or marvel its a shadow of thew whole .

 

[garee]

"And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Sign to seek after or a sign of observation like the end of the world its the last day?

Why use the Son of man in that description and not the Son of God?

 

[Waggles]

Good grief!
The gospel haters are at it again.

 

[garee]

Good grief!
The gospel haters are at it again.

So then you have no opinion? Why hate?

 

[Zmouth]

There is a world of difference between seeking after a sign in order to believe, and observing signs like in parables where the spiritual understanding is hid.

If faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God then what do you call it when someone uses the superscription as a sign in order to believe when it contradicts the very superscription that they claim they have faith in?

To begin with, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not not seen. If hope that is seen is not hope, then how is the superscription that is seen evidence of faith since what hope does a person have in hearing the truth if they have already set themselves at enmity against the word of God?

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Mark 4:11-13

I was quickened without believing in the Bible or hearing the voice of God and it doesn't offend me when a sinner questions my faith since it is error only and not truth that shrinks from inquiry; so to answer your question [See Isaiah 59:1]. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. [Deut 32:4]

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:22

For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. Prov 2:6

 

[garee]

If faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God then what do you call it when someone uses the superscription as a sign in order to believe when it contradicts the very superscription that they claim they have faith in?

It’s the faith of God that comes from hearing God. As a work of his faith or labor of His love it works in us to both will and perform His good pleasure (imputed righteousness).

Not sure what you mean by superscription?

To begin with, faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not not seen. If hope that is seen is not hope, then how is the superscription that is seen evidence of faith since what hope does a person have in hearing the truth if they have already set themselves at enmity against the word of God?

Yes His faith is the substance by which we can believe God, it givesus a living hope.. Without it no man could believe God in order to please Him ....it would be hopeless. He gives it (his faith) to us a a free gift . Freely he gave freely with no part of us we have received it.

11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
Mark 4:11-13

I was quickened without believing in the Bible or hearing the voice of God and it doesn't offend me when a sinner questions my faith since it is error only and not truth that shrinks from inquiry; so to answer your question [See Isaiah 59:1]. He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he. [Deut 32:4]

Not sure why you think that faith does not come from hearing God through the word of God. How could we offer the gospel law of faith without it?

I would agree that according to that parable you offered Christ is the Rock as the foundation of our new faith.
He uses Rock many times in other parables. I have one in mind. if you are interested I will offer my opinion.

Rock like other metaphors are signs for the rebels, like tongues. Prophecy the word of God for the new creatures. No sign to seek after, observe yes, seek after no.