Signs ...Seek after as a source of faith or observe?

[garee]

There is a world of difference between seeking after a sign in order to believe, and observing signs like in parables where the spiritual understanding is hid.

There are signs alone for observation, and signs and or with wonders .Wonder is the unseen faith principle found below....a must when rightly dividing the word of God in the parables. .(without parables Christ spoke not)

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Most we distinguish the difference between sign and a sign and or with wonders seeing the unbelieving Jews required one before they would believe making the assurance of the cross without affect.(sign and wonders gospel )

Just as the Greek said show me God by our intellect, after the philosophies of men ,the wisdom of this worlds making the assurance of the cross without affect (the intellectual gospel )

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:22

How would those from what some call the "sign gifts" camp understand the difference? No difference? Is the difference intellectual, philosophical?

 

[Nehemiah6]

The days of sign gifts are over. That was for the Apostolic Age.

The only sign for unbelievers today is the sign of the prophet Jonah, as seen in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Zi]

The end of a thing is always greater than the beginning.

The days of sign gifts are over. That was for the Apostolic Age.

The only sign for unbelievers today is the sign of the prophet Jonah, as seen in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

 

[Rokurac]

The only sign for unbelievers today is the sign of the prophet Jonah, as seen in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

Which is no sign at all, they cant even see it.

 

[Dino246]

There is a world of difference between seeking after a sign in order to believe, and observing signs like in parables where the spiritual understanding is hid.

There are signs alone for observation, and signs and or with wonders .Wonder is the unseen faith principle found below....a must when rightly dividing the word of God in the parables. .(without parables Christ spoke not)

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Most we distinguish the difference between sign and a sign and or with wonders seeing the unbelieving Jews required one before they would believe making the assurance of the cross without affect.(sign and wonders gospel )

Just as the Greek said show me God by our intellect, after the philosophies of men ,the wisdom of this worlds making the assurance of the cross without affect (the intellectual gospel )

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:22

How would those from what some call the "sign gifts" camp understand the difference? No difference? Is the difference intellectual, philosophical?

I believe your interpretations of both "wonders" and "parables" are incorrect.

"Wonders" is not directly explained in Scripture. It is, however, used in the context of God's visible actions against the Egyptians in Exodus, which are referenced in Deuteronomy and several other places in the OT. It is further used of the visible works of God in Job, Psalms, and Daniel. In Acts, "wonders" were wrought by the apostles, and again, they were visible.

"Parables" are of a specific class of literature where a short story is used to illustrate a truth. Regular narrative, history, prophecy and speech are not parables.

I agree; there is a world of difference between seeking a sign before one believes, and seeking the manifestation of the Spirit of God, which Paul commends. They are not the same thing, so equating them and the decrying Christians who only do the latter is improper.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Which is no sign at all, they cant even see it.

Exactly. And that is why faith is required in order to be saved. And as Jesus said, if they will not believe Moses, they will not believe if one rose from the dead.

 

[Enow]

For a saved believer to seek after a sign in having the Holy Spirit in them is an act of unbelief.

For a saved believer to seek to be filled continually supernaturally by the Holy Spirit is to deny the promise from Jesus that he would never hunger nor thirst any more to be filled after having come to & believed in Jesus Christ.

John 6:[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

The fact that he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead is the sign that he is saved, because he could not have believed in the Son of God unless the Father had revealed His Son to him in order for him to believe in Him to be saved.

That is the only sign any believer needs to believe in Him to be saved; His resurrection. Any other sign to seek after that is a work of an adulterous generation, sinning against the Bridegroom.

May God deliver some by returning to their first love and shunning vain & profane babbling which was the sign gained by that very apostasy which denies Him and their resting place in Him when they had first come to and believed in Him that they are complete in Christ so they can rest in Him as filled.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

There is a world of difference between seeking after a sign in order to believe, and observing signs like in parables where the spiritual understanding is hid.

There are signs alone for observation, and signs and or with wonders .Wonder is the unseen faith principle found below....a must when rightly dividing the word of God in the parables. .(without parables Christ spoke not)

2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Most we distinguish the difference between sign and a sign and or with wonders seeing the unbelieving Jews required one before they would believe making the assurance of the cross without affect.(sign and wonders gospel )

Just as the Greek said show me God by our intellect, after the philosophies of men ,the wisdom of this worlds making the assurance of the cross without affect (the intellectual gospel )

For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 1Co 1:22

How would those from what some call the "sign gifts" camp understand the difference? No difference? Is the difference intellectual, philosophical?

what is a 'sign gift' camp?

what are you referring to?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I believe your interpretations of both "wonders" and "parables" are incorrect.

"Wonders" is not directly explained in Scripture. It is, however, used in the context of God's visible actions against the Egyptians in Exodus, which are referenced in Deuteronomy and several other places in the OT. It is further used of the visible works of God in Job, Psalms, and Daniel. In Acts, "wonders" were wrought by the apostles, and again, they were visible.

"Parables" are of a specific class of literature where a short story is used to illustrate a truth. Regular narrative, history, prophecy and speech are not parables.

I agree; there is a world of difference between seeking a sign before one believes, and seeking the manifestation of the Spirit of God, which Paul commends. They are not the same thing, so equating them and the decrying Christians who only do the latter is improper.

yeah...I was wondering about the op's description of 'wonders'

him saying 'wonder is the unseen faith principal' is definitely off IMO

actually I do not understand where the op is even going with his post which is why I asked what he is talking about

 

[7seasrekeyed]

For a saved believer to seek after a sign in having the Holy Spirit in them is an act of unbelief.

For a saved believer to seek to be filled continually supernaturally by the Holy Spirit is to deny the promise from Jesus that he would never hunger nor thirst any more to be filled after having come to & believed in Jesus Christ.

John 6:[SUP]35 [/SUP]And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

The fact that he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ & that God raised Him from the dead is the sign that he is saved, because he could not have believed in the Son of God unless the Father had revealed His Son to him in order for him to believe in Him to be saved.

That is the only sign any believer needs to believe in Him to be saved; His resurrection. Any other sign to seek after that is a work of an adulterous generation, sinning against the Bridegroom.

May God deliver some by returning to their first love and shunning vain & profane babbling which was the sign gained by that very apostasy which denies Him and their resting place in Him when they had first come to and believed in Him that they are complete in Christ so they can rest in Him as filled.

vain and profane babbling

you should know.... you seem to fancy yourself an expert on everyone

the great thing about this place is that it is a discussion forum, so I would suggest we take many grains of salt with your...ahem...'teaching'

 

[7seasrekeyed]

For a saved believer to seek to be filled continually supernaturally by the Holy Spirit is to deny the promise from Jesus that he would never hunger nor thirst any more to be filled after having come to & believed in Jesus Christ

in your economy enow, (not that I expect an answer because you hardly ever do answer anything contrary to what you believe), what should a believer be filled with, if not the Holy Spirit?

the Bible says to be filled with the Holy Spirit...have you not read that far?

first of all, we are sealed with the Holy Spirit when we are saved, but we do not immediately become so filled with the Holy Spirit that all that God promises us is immediately given. IN Christ we have everything, but we need to have faith and appropriate it. Through sanctification, an ongoing process, we learn what it means to allow the Holy Spirit to live the life of Christ through us. NO ONE is suddenly and completely sanctified, so it begs the question why YOU think we are not continually in the process of being filled?

In fact, the proper translation of being filled with the Holy Spirit, is BE YE BEING FILLED...in other words, CONTINUALLY

otherwise, you are a dried up know it all and are snapped off and so filled with your own head knowledge, that you don't know it...and that applies to everyone who rejects the gifts of God. NO ONE can live as a Christian without the Holy Spirit who gives us life...those who do, are not spiritual...they are hard hearted and listen to no one but themself and usually preach against the gifts with big sounding words and convincing lies. and by the way? that is all in scripture

you seem to be tearing up the place in your dislike of anyone having the freedom in Christ to actually ask for more of God by His Spirit.

wondering why that is..............


[FONT=&quot]And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit, Ephesians 5:18

we would not be told to be filled with the Holy Spirit if we received all we would ever receive at conversion[/FONT]

 

[Enow]

vain and profane babbling

you should know.... you seem to fancy yourself an expert on everyone

the great thing about this place is that it is a discussion forum, so I would suggest we take many grains of salt with your...ahem...'teaching'

Don't forget that this vain & profane babbling that I oppose is being used as a sign for believers to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, so yes, I may be seen by you as throwing the baby out with the bath water, but I see it as throwing the lie away from His real gift of tongues.

How can you prove that is not a Biblical stand for me to take when 1 Corinthians 14:22 says tongues are not to serve as a sign to believer, but to the unbelievers, and 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 warns against those who preach another Jesus/Holy Ghost to receive?

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]21[/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

2 Corinthians 11:[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Plainly written... and since scripture cannot run against scripture, you guys are reading scripture wrong to justify using tongues for private use.

John 7:[SUP]7 [/SUP]The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Isaiah 8:[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

How can a former voodooist convince you that he has repented of his former ways if he still speaks in that supernatural tongue that you are using, as you are claiming it is for private use?

1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil.

There is no way you can abstain from all appearances of evil if christians use tongues privately for why it is not coming with interpretation.

There is no way to prove God's gift of tongues as standing apart from the supernatural tongue that was in the world before Pentecost if you believe God would suddenly be the author of confusion by switching the mode for what God originally used the gift of tongues for on that day of Pentecost and have it for private use when it does not come with interpretation or understood by a foreigner.

So it is that vain & profane babbling as gained by apostasy is what I really oppose. Those who claim they use tongues in both ways, is why I do not believe they have the real God's gift of tongues at all for God is not the author of confusion and there can be no lie of the truth just as there can be no supernatural tongue as found in the world before Pentecost to be among the real God's gift of tongues.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Don't forget that this vain & profane babbling that I oppose is being used as a sign for believers to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, so yes, I may be seen by you as throwing the baby out with the bath water, but I see it as throwing the lie away from His real gift of tongues.

How can you prove that is not a Biblical stand for me to take when 1 Corinthians 14:22 says tongues are not to serve as a sign to believer, but to the unbelievers, and 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 warns against those who preach another Jesus/Holy Ghost to receive?

1 Corinthians 14:[SUP]21[/SUP]In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

2 Corinthians 11:[SUP]3 [/SUP]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.[SUP] 4 [/SUP]For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Plainly written... and since scripture cannot run against scripture, you guys are reading scripture wrong to justify using tongues for private use.

John 7:[SUP]7 [/SUP]The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

Isaiah 8:[SUP]19 [/SUP]And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

How can a former voodooist convince you that he has repented of his former ways if he still speaks in that supernatural tongue that you are using, as you are claiming it is for private use?

1 Thessalonians 5:[SUP]21 [/SUP]Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.[SUP] 22 [/SUP]Abstain from all appearance of evil.

There is no way you can abstain from all appearances of evil if christians use tongues privately for why it is not coming with interpretation.

There is no way to prove God's gift of tongues as standing apart from the supernatural tongue that was in the world before Pentecost if you believe God would suddenly be the author of confusion by switching the mode for what God originally used the gift of tongues for on that day of Pentecost and have it for private use when it does not come with interpretation or understood by a foreigner.

So it is that vain & profane babbling as gained by apostasy is what I really oppose. Those who claim they use tongues in both ways, is why I do not believe they have the real God's gift of tongues at all for God is not the author of confusion and there can be no lie of the truth just as there can be no supernatural tongue as found in the world before Pentecost to be among the real God's gift of tongues.

Enow you are wrong and quite confused because you ignore ALL the scripture that teaches the OPPOSITE of what you try to 'teach'

your expression, 'vain and profane babbling', is actually an insult against the Spirit of God

you do not insult those who correctly speak in tongues...you insult the Giver of the gifts

your post is quite confusing due to your consistent method of cherry picking verses and forcing them into the context you have derived to attempt a support for your personal conflict with scripture

it's sad that you do this and as I already pointed out, even those who do not believe as I do, have pointed out to you that your argument is illogical at best, but truly unscriptural at worst

you are now going to bizarre sources to support your beliefs as it seems you have a desire to 'up the ante' and sensationalize your personal drama

it is curious that you are now quoting Isaiah concerning familiar spirits...again, way out of context...and nothing to do with New Testament spiritual gifts

How can a former voodooist convince you that he has repented of his former ways if he still speaks in that supernatural tongue that you are using, as you are claiming it is for private use

I really don't know where this is coming from, but why would I ask a former voodooist anything concerning my Savior, or the Holy Spirit? frankly, I would not trust them as I would someone who had never been such

I have been saved since the age of 5 and have never turned to anything forbidden in scripture regarding spiritualists or any type of fortune telling. I would have to have had involvement in forbidden things in order to draw those kinds of spirits to me

apparently, you think that God does not or possibly cannot, look after His own

that, is on you...not me or others who have tried to point out the fallacy of your position

Plainly written... and since scripture cannot run against scripture, you guys are reading scripture wrong to justify using tongues for private use.

well what else would you say. it is plainly written, but YOU are the one preaching a cruel Jesus who fools people and when they ask for the Holy Spirit they get a devil instead. That, is what you are actually saying and I fear this is a terrible deception you have allowed yourself to be mired in

 

[Dino246]

Don't forget that this vain & profane babbling that I oppose is being used as a sign for believers to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, so yes, I may be seen by you as throwing the baby out with the bath water, but I see it as throwing the lie away from His real gift of tongues.

You are incorrect. You have this whole idea so convoluted that you don't even have your ideas straight.

Your clause, "a sign for believers to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation" is NOT what tongue-speakers advocate. Clearly you have not been reading carefully.

No tongue-speaker advocates "seeking a sign of tongues 'to' (in order to) receive the Holy Spirit"... at any time. That is incorrect! Some advocate that speaking in tongues is "the" sign of receiving the Holy Spirit; some do not. Don't broad-brush on this issue.

These little words are important! I have addressed your error repeatedly, and you repeatedly ignore my correction. You demonstrate that you are unteachable.

So it is that vain & profane babbling as gained by apostasy is what I really oppose. Those who claim they use tongues in both ways, is why I do not believe they have the real God's gift of tongues at all for God is not the author of confusion and there can be no lie of the truth just as there can be no supernatural tongue as found in the world before Pentecost to be among the real God's gift of tongues.

I don't know whether English is your first language; I suspect it is, because anyone learning English as a second language would learn proper sentence structure. Frankly, yours is poor; it often takes effort to wade through your run-on sentences to understand what you're saying. Honestly, you would do well to take a basic writing course at your local college, and to apply what you learn in your posts.

Let's examine "Those who claim they use tongues in both ways, is why I do not believe...." The phrase "Those who claim..." is a set of persons, not a reason. It does not follow to continue the sentence with "is why". It would not even be "are why" which at least would have the proper plurality. You might use "demonstrate why" or "exemplify why".

By the way, you would also do well to learn some basic hermeneutics. Here your lack of training is evident.

 

[Enow]

You are incorrect. You have this whole idea so convoluted that you don't even have your ideas straight.

Your clause, "a sign for believers to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation" is NOT what tongue-speakers advocate. Clearly you have not been reading carefully.

No tongue-speaker advocates "seeking a sign of tongues 'to' (in order to) receive the Holy Spirit"... at any time. That is incorrect! Some advocate that speaking in tongues is "the" sign of receiving the Holy Spirit; some do not. Don't broad-brush on this issue.

These little words are important! I have addressed your error repeatedly, and you repeatedly ignore my correction. You demonstrate that you are unteachable.

I have read their testimonies as to when they had received tongues and that was by receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation. They do not have to say it the way you claim that is not what they said; their testimony speaks for it.

I don't know whether English is your first language; I suspect it is, because anyone learning English as a second language would learn proper sentence structure. Frankly, yours is poor; it often takes effort to wade through your run-on sentences to understand what you're saying. Honestly, you would do well to take a basic writing course at your local college, and to apply what you learn in your posts.

Let's examine "Those who claim they use tongues in both ways, is why I do not believe...." The phrase "Those who claim..." is a set of persons, not a reason. It does not follow to continue the sentence with "is why". It would not even be "are why" which at least would have the proper plurality. You might use "demonstrate why" or "exemplify why".

By the way, you would also do well to learn some basic hermeneutics. Here your lack of training is evident.

In your opinion.

 

[Enow]

well what else would you say. it is plainly written, but YOU are the one preaching a cruel Jesus who fools people and when they ask for the Holy Spirit they get a devil instead. That, is what you are actually saying and I fear this is a terrible deception you have allowed yourself to be mired in

It is because tongue speakers and those who seek the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by that sign of tongues are reading Jesus's words wrong below when Jesus was talking about those that seek salvation.

Luke 11:[SUP]9 [/SUP]And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.[SUP]10 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. [SUP]11 [/SUP]If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? [SUP]12 [/SUP]Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? [SUP]13 [/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Proof that Jesus is talking about salvation is by reading Matthew's rendition of what Jesus had meant in Luke 11:9-13.

Matthew 7:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?[SUP] 10 [/SUP]Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?[SUP] 11 [/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Both of those verses is about salvation for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ. That also means for every saved believer to seek to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation, are doing so making the Father look evil as if He had not given you what was promised; the Holy Spirit & eternal life, the first time when you were saved.

The deception is how already saved believers are taking Luke 11:9-13 as something they are to do after they were saved when that was not what Jesus was saying at all.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

It is because tongue speakers and those who seek the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by that sign of tongues are reading Jesus's words wrong below when Jesus was talking about those that seek salvation.

Luke 11:[SUP]9 [/SUP]And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.[SUP]10 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. [SUP]11 [/SUP]If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? [SUP]12 [/SUP]Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? [SUP]13 [/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Proof that Jesus is talking about salvation is by reading Matthew's rendition of what Jesus had meant in Luke 11:9-13.

Matthew 7:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?[SUP] 10 [/SUP]Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?[SUP] 11 [/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Both of those verses is about salvation for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ. That also means for every saved believer to seek to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation, are doing so making the Father look evil as if He had not given you what was promised; the Holy Spirit & eternal life, the first time when you were saved.

The deception is how already saved believers are taking Luke 11:9-13 as something they are to do after they were saved when that was not what Jesus was saying at all.

again, not going to wade through this diatribe you have constructed

you slam scripture together that is not only taken completely out of context, but it appears that is how you understand it as well...completely out of context

you say the same things over and over with no actual scriptural reference that actually applies to the discussion...including the ones you start yourself...you have never given any sort of scriptural proof of what you say...out of context verses and slamming old and new testament verses together to support your opinions is not a valid argument or debate

you simply cannot prove what you say other than in your own mind to your own satisfaction, I really have seldom seen the random verse selection you try to offer as proof of your beliefs, badly constructed I might add, as any sort of expertise on the subject. actually, I have never seen this construct anywhere but in your posts

I have seen plenty of nays on the subject of 'tongues' and such, but at least offered with verses on the subject.

your approach is unique to say the least and I don't mean that in a positive way

you seldom answer any scripture myself or others offer to counter your posits but we should all sit up and take notice that you are the apparent final word here. you did supply your ideas to a verse I posted here though:

Matthew 7:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:[SUP] 8 [/SUP]For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.[SUP] 9 [/SUP]Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?[SUP] 10[/SUP]Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?[SUP] 11 [/SUP]If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Both of those verses is about salvation for knocking at the door of Jesus Christ. That also means for every saved believer to seek to receive the Holy Spirit separate from salvation, are doing so making the Father look evil as if He had not given you what was promised; the Holy Spirit & eternal life, the first time when you were saved.

The deception is how already saved believers are taking Luke 11:9-13 as something they are to do after they were saved when that was not what Jesus was saying at all.​

I did not reference this in response to tongues...but rather in your misconception that if a Christian asks God for something that is IN His will, He is not going to give them something wicked. I did not even apply it to something specific, but only in the general sense of God's children asking Him and you misconstrue and try to tell me I applied it to the specific gripe you have regarding tongues.

I fear you do the same with scripture. you misconstrue and apply what does not belong to whatever you want and then assume no one but you understands it

but I will add that Jesus is most certainly talking about more than salvation. seriously...you need to understand context and application and not just juxtapose whatever you want

if Jesus was speaking of only one thing, why does He speak in the plural??

 

[Dino246]

Don't forget that this vain & profane babbling that I oppose is being used as a sign for believers to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, so yes, I may be seen by you as throwing the baby out with the bath water, but I see it as throwing the lie away from His real gift of tongues.

I have read their testimonies as to when they had received tongues and that was by receiving the Holy Spirit separate from salvation. They do not have to say it the way you claim that is not what they said; their testimony speaks for it.

You're contradicting yourself, demonstrating the proof of my assertion. In your earlier post, you wrote, "tongues... as a sign for believers to seek to receive the Holy Spirit". In your later post, you wrote, "received tongues... by receiving the Holy Spirit". They aren't the same thing!

In the first statement, tongues comes first, then the Holy Spirit. In the second, the Holy Spirit comes first, then the tongues. So which is it?

If you don't choose your words carefully, you will be proven wrong repeatedly.

 

[MarcR]

again, not going to wade through this diatribe you have constructed

you slam scripture together that is not only taken completely out of context, but it appears that is how you understand it as well...completely out of context

you say the same things over and over with no actual scriptural reference that actually applies to the discussion...including the ones you start yourself...you have never given any sort of scriptural proof of what you say...out of context verses and slamming old and new testament verses together to support your opinions is not a valid argument or debate

you simply cannot prove what you say other than in your own mind to your own satisfaction, I really have seldom seen the random verse selection you try to offer as proof of your beliefs, badly constructed I might add, as any sort of expertise on the subject. actually, I have never seen this construct anywhere but in your posts

I have seen plenty of nays on the subject of 'tongues' and such, but at least offered with verses on the subject.

your approach is unique to say the least and I don't mean that in a positive way

you seldom answer any scripture myself or others offer to counter your posits but we should all sit up and take notice that you are the apparent final word here. you did supply your ideas to a verse I posted here though:



I did not reference this in response to tongues...but rather in your misconception that if a Christian asks God for something that is IN His will, He is not going to give them something wicked. I did not even apply it to something specific, but only in the general sense of God's children asking Him and you misconstrue and try to tell me I applied it to the specific gripe you have regarding tongues.

I fear you do the same with scripture. you misconstrue and apply what does not belong to whatever you want and then assume no one but you understands it

but I will add that Jesus is most certainly talking about more than salvation. seriously...you need to understand context and application and not just juxtapose whatever you want

if Jesus was speaking of only one thing, why does He speak in the plural??

Very well said! As you know, I have some honest skepticism about use of unknown tongues; but I certainly would not presume to tell God that He may not use them because they trouble me; nor am I inclined to question the integrity of believers who claim to find them helpful.

I see a possible misunderstanding on their part or on mine and I do recognize that the misunderstanding, if any, may be my own.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Very well said! As you know, I have some honest skepticism about use of unknown tongues; but I certainly would not presume to tell God that He may not use them because they trouble me; nor am I inclined to question the integrity of believers who claim to find them helpful.

I see a possible misunderstanding on their part or on mine and I do recognize that the misunderstanding, if any, may be my own.

well I find this the best of replies!

I understand and am in the same place myself for some things

sometimes I feel like I understand nothing at all except that God must exist or evil would have wiped us all out a long time ago

I think we need to be like Job...state our case before God, but be humble enough to accept His answer even if it does not agree with our understanding

and like David say 'Who am I that you are mindful of me?'