Speaking in Tongues (Privately, Outside of Church)

[shrume]

Precisely - “interpretation” is the translation of what is typically the spoken word (as opposed to the written) from language X to language Y.

That's right.

Exactly – Corinth was a multi-cultural and very linguistically diverse city. Greek was the ‘native’ language to Corinth, but despite its status as the “English of its day”, not everyone spoke it well enough to be marginally fluent. Again, to my example – if I came from Briton, showed up and start speaking my native language

You would not be speaking in tongues.

ain’t no one there gonna understand a word I’m saying; to them, I’m speaking mysteries even though I am earnestly praying from deep within my being (i.e. praying in the Spirit). No one understands me; thus it seems, I am speaking only to God (who understands all languages) and not to those there ("not to man"). Nowhere does it even remotely suggest that the speaker does not understand what he is saying.

1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

I would argue that for tongue-speakers, it can ONLY ever mean that the speaker does not understand himself; else the premise of a “prayer/heavenly/angelic” language fails.

That's correct. The Bible explicitly states that when a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. See above.

As one internet writer put it, rather bluntly I might add, “You want this to be real. You’ve convinced yourself it’s real. You’re improvising the sounds, but there is nothing about what you’re doing that cannot be explained in natural terms. The only reason it sounds like a language is that you want it to sound like a language. But it’s not. It’s meaningless. You’re not producing a language.”

What he bluntly stated is false.

The above is admittedly a somewhat harsh statement from a former tongues speaker, but the bolded section is 100% true.

It's 100% false.

Tongues are something concrete that can be tested and analyzed. Again, record yourself for about a minute the next time you speak in tongues. Play it back several times and really listen to what is being produced.

If a person did that, he would not understand what he said. He does not know the language he is speaking.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Speaking in tongues edifies the person speaking

True enough (provided they are genuine tongues). However, the whole tenor of 1 Corinthians 14 is that none of the spiritual gifts were given for self-edification, and that is why Paul would rather speak 5 intelligible words in the church meeting than 10,000 words in tongues. To use any spiritual gift selfishly and for self-edification violates 1 Corinthians 13, in which chapter Paul also said that tongues would cease. They ceased with the Apostolic Age and were revived very recently.

In agreement that in the Church meeting it is better to speak with the understanding so that others may benefit.

If a person is in the church meeting and speaks in tongues with no interpretation, that speaking in tongues is to be spoken silently between the believer and God (1 Cor 14:28).

To use any spiritual gift selfishly and for self-edification violates 1 Corinthians 13

If a believer speaks in tongues in the privacy of his/her own home, and

according to 1 Cor 14:4 that edifies him/her, and

according to 1 Cor 14:14 it is his/her spirit praying, and

according to 1 Cor 14:16 it is blessing with the spirit, and

according to 1 Cor 14:17 it is giving thanks well​

how is that using the manifestation "selfishly"?



According to 1 Cor 12:6 and 1 Cor 12:11, speaking in tongues is worked within the believer by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit gives the utterance. How does that equate to the believer being "selfish" if it is God Who works within the believer to give the words which he/she utters?

 

[Lighthearted]

This may be a compelling argument to some, but it fails because both the interpretation and the initial language are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. If only the "interpretation of tongues" were listed in chapter 12, then I might accept your argument. That "speaking in tongues" is also listed, and discussed together with interpretation in chapter 14, indicates clearly that there is more going on that merely the ability to translate to the language of the local people. If the initial "speaking in tongues" were only a known language to the speaker, it would not be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

I can attest that what Dino says is true. I do not understand the tongues that utter from the spirit...God does. The only thing I do know is two certain phrases must be a calling out to God and praise......

 

[Lighthearted]

Shrume and Renew understand.
1Corinthians 13:10+12...not ceased yet

 

[carl11]

If tongues is still for our day and of course people are speaking in tongues then why do we not make and admen to the Bible and put these words in that God has given then utterance to speak ?? Surely these words are of the utmost Importance because this is God giving a revelation and for that reason everybody should know this and for reasons of edification.

 

[Kavik]

That's right.


You would not be speaking in tongues.

Of course you would - 'tongue' means language; i.e. "What's your mother tongue?"


1 Cor 14:
2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.


No one understands him simply because no one at the gathering speaks his language. For verse 14, see a previous comment on this thread.

That's correct. The Bible explicitly states that when a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying. See above.

Yes - for tongue speakers it can only ever say/mean that. It's one of the ways tongues are legitimized as being something they're simply not.

What he bluntly stated is false.


It's 100% false.

I would have to disagree, particularly with the bolded sections.

If a person did that, he would not understand what he said. He does not know the language he is speaking.

If a person did that, no, of course they wouldn't understand it - there's nothing to understand; it's non-language utterance, free vocalization. What s/he would be able to see however, is the typical tell tale features of glossolalia: the typical two way vowel contrast, the limited number of distinct sounds, the fact that those sounds used require the least amount of physical effort to produce, the repetition, the alliteration, and play with syllable structure, etc., etc.

 

[Enow]

This may be a compelling argument to some, but it fails because both the interpretation and the initial language are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. If only the "interpretation of tongues" were listed in chapter 12, then I might accept your argument. That "speaking in tongues" is also listed, and discussed together with interpretation in chapter 14, indicates clearly that there is more going on that merely the ability to translate to the language of the local people. If the initial "speaking in tongues" were only a known language to the speaker, it would not be a manifestation of the Holy Spirit.

Then back to the point of the discussion;

Verse 7 testifies what all the manifestations of the Spirit are for; to profit the body withal; not individually.

To use tongues privately, you wrest Paul's words out of context. Paul was comparing why prophesy is better than tongues in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter, because tongues has to come with interpretation for the tongue speaker to understand for that tongue to even be fruitful to the tongue speaker, and you turning it around as if Paul was trying to make tongues look better than prophesy... is going against scripture below.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]7[/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;[SUP] 9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;[SUP] 10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[SUP] 11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.[SUP] 14 [/SUP]For the body is not one member, but many.........[SUP]19 [/SUP]And if they were all one member, where were the body?[SUP] 20 [/SUP]But now are they many members, yet but one body.[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Basically, you guys are saying because of all those supposed benefits for using tongues privately, you have no need for any other body of Christ, and yet plainly Paul says ALL the manifestations of the Spirit is for the profit of the assembly; not for the individual. That is proof you are reading Paul's words wrong and when you guys claim getting that tongues by receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, verse 13 above proves that was not of Him nor the tongue that it has brought you.

That is why you are seen by your testimony as preaching to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign of tongues as giving another calling in tempting already saved believers to become an adulterous generation by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit after a sign which happens to be tongues without interpretation.

That is why tongues for private use is not of Him and neither is that extra calling for how you get that kind of tongue.

 

[heartofdavid]

Then back to the point of the discussion;

Verse 7 testifies what all the manifestations of the Spirit are for; to profit the body withal; not individually.

To use tongues privately, you wrest Paul's words out of context. Paul was comparing why prophesy is better than tongues in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter, because tongues has to come with interpretation for the tongue speaker to understand for that tongue to even be fruitful to the tongue speaker, and you turning it around as if Paul was trying to make tongues look better than prophesy... is going against scripture below.

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]7[/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;[SUP] 9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;[SUP] 10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[SUP] 11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.[SUP] 14 [/SUP]For the body is not one member, but many.........[SUP]19 [/SUP]And if they were all one member, where were the body?[SUP] 20 [/SUP]But now are they many members, yet but one body.[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Basically, you guys are saying because of all those supposed benefits for using tongues privately, you have no need for any other body of Christ, and yet plainly Paul says ALL the manifestations of the Spirit is for the profit of the assembly; not for the individual. That is proof you are reading Paul's words wrong and when you guys claim getting that tongues by receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation, verse 13 above proves that was not of Him nor the tongue that it has brought you.

That is why you are seen by your testimony as preaching to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign of tongues as giving another calling in tempting already saved believers to become an adulterous generation by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit after a sign which happens to be tongues without interpretation.

That is why tongues for private use is not of Him and neither is that extra calling for how you get that kind of tongue.

You've never knitted a thing or have any relationship
With those that do,but you know more than the pros.

It works in your head,therefore it is

 

[Enow]

If tongues is still for our day and of course people are speaking in tongues then why do we not make and admen to the Bible and put these words in that God has given then utterance to speak ?? Surely these words are of the utmost Importance because this is God giving a revelation and for that reason everybody should know this and for reasons of edification.

Why don't we have tongue speakers post their speaking in tongues privately for all to see?

ftvuJwefcgqjhkmf,[pHBVTJHKJRNMFknyfertgmf,poeqHTFVD UQJGKWEIHAbtesr9ourjfm bcusiyooik,dbte

I am not a tongue speaker but I am illustrating a point.

Do I know what it means? No. Did I know by which one of the so called many benefits that tongue was doing when used privately? No. Does it really edify me? No. Does it really edify any one talking about using tongues privately? No.

Tongues speakers that use tongues privately; do not have the real God's gift of tongues. Those that claim they got that tongue by a second blessing of receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation or again later on in life as a believer, are just believing every spirit that comes over them to be of God when the apostle John told them not to do that in 1 John 4:1-6.

There are unbelievers in the world that experienced such a phenomenon and speak in tongues that is just vain & profane babbling nonsense; not a foreign language at all.

No one needs to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation to get a manifestation of the Spirit. Just ask Jesus for the gift of prophesy which was what Paul was wanting believers to seek after among all spiritual gifts anyway; not tongues.

So the tongues you see today.. is not the real God's gift of tongues when they insist they can also use it privately as the majority claim receiving that tongue by a supernatural phenomenon of what they assume was the Holy Spirit coming over them apart from salvation.

If they had done the apostle John's test in 1 John 4:1-6, they would know that the Holy Spirit has been in them since salvation and that spirit coming over them apart from salvation is NOT the Holy Spirit & neither the tongue it brings when it speaks as the world speaks in supernatural tongue as vain & profane babbling nonsense.

 

[Enow]

You've never knitted a thing or have any relationship
With those that do,but you know more than the pros.

It works in your head,therefore it is

1 Corinthians 12:[SUP]7[/SUP]But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.[SUP]8 [/SUP]For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;[SUP] 9 [/SUP]To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;[SUP] 10 [/SUP]To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:[SUP] 11 [/SUP]But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.[SUP] 12 [/SUP]For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.[SUP]13 [/SUP]For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.[SUP] 14 [/SUP]For the body is not one member, but many.........[SUP]19 [/SUP]And if they were all one member, where were the body?[SUP] 20 [/SUP]But now are they many members, yet but one body.[SUP]21 [/SUP]And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Sure. Go ahead and ignore what is plainly written that proves you are wresting Paul's words to use tongues privately in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter.

You had never known what that tongue was doing the last time you used that tongue privately and so I can only see you as following the voice of a stranger as the tongue you serve comes from the author of confusion; that spirit of error.

It's all in your head if you think you understand that nonsense without interpretation which has to come from another.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

[posted by Kavik] ain’t no one there gonna understand a word I’m saying; to them, I’m speaking mysteries even though I am earnestly praying from deep within my being (i.e. praying in the Spirit). No one understands me; thus it seems, I am speaking only to God (who understands all languages) and not to those there ("not to man"). Nowhere does it even remotely suggest that the speaker does not understand what he is saying.

[in response: shrume] 1 Cor 14:2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
14) For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

[posted by Kavik] No one understands him simply because no one at the gathering speaks his language. For verse 14, see a previous comment on this thread.

Kavik - "no man understands" refers to the one speaking in tongues - It is NOT a known language to the one speaking. Not to those in the church meeting. The "him" in the KJV is added. That is why it was so remarkable that the apostles spoke in the languages of the people present when they spoke in tongues . . . that is why the multitude were "confounded" when they heard them speak.

NASB - For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak unto men, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries (secrets).

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Why don't we have tongue speakers post their speaking in tongues privately for all to see?

ftvuJwefcgqjhkmf,[pHBVTJHKJRNMFknyfertgmf,poeqHTFVD UQJGKWEIHAbtesr9ourjfm bcusiyooik,dbte

I am not a tongue speaker but I am illustrating a point.

Tongues are NOT meant to be used to "prove a point" to someone.

Do I know what it means? No. Did I know by which one of the so called many benefits that tongue was doing when used privately? No. Does it really edify me? No. Does it really edify any one talking about using tongues privately? No.

God says that it does edify the one speaking - which you have been told time and again. Where does it "edify" or "build up" the one speaking? In one's spirit. I, for one, enjoy speaking "secrets" with my heavenly Father.

Tongues speakers that use tongues privately; do not have the real God's gift of tongues. Those that claim they got that tongue by a second blessing of receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation or again later on in life as a believer, are just believing every spirit that comes over them to be of God when the apostle John told them not to do that in 1 John 4:1-6.

1 John 4:1-6 is the manifestation of the Spirit; i.e. discerning of spirits. Why do you accept that manifestation but not speaking in tongues?

There are unbelievers in the world that experienced such a phenomenon and speak in tongues that is just vain & profane babbling nonsense; not a foreign language at all.

Tongues are real. A manifestation experienced by believers who believe and walk out in faith on the word of God. No man speaking in tongues (by the Spirit of God) calls Jesus accursed and no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:2) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:24

No one needs to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation to get a manifestation of the Spirit. Just ask Jesus for the gift of prophesy which was what Paul was wanting believers to seek after among all spiritual gifts anyway; not tongues.

I would (meaning: to will, have in mind, intend; to be resolved or determined, to purpose; to desire, to wish; to love, to like to do a thing, be fond of doing; to take delight in, have pleasure] that you all spake with tongues, but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues UNLESS he interpret, [so] that the church may receive edifying. One that prophesies is NOT greater than the one who speaks in tongues and interprets. And if one does not intend to interpret - they should keep silent in the church - speaking to himself and to God.

So the tongues you see today.. is not the real God's gift of tongues when they insist they can also use it privately as the majority claim receiving that tongue by a supernatural phenomenon of what they assume was the Holy Spirit coming over them apart from salvation.

If they had done the apostle John's test in 1 John 4:1-6, they would know that the Holy Spirit has been in them since salvation and that spirit coming over them apart from salvation is NOT the Holy Spirit & neither the tongue it brings when it speaks as the world speaks in supernatural tongue as vain & profane babbling nonsense.

It's funny that God tells us just the opposite of what you say.

 

[Dino246]

Then back to the point of the discussion;

Verse 7 testifies what all the manifestations of the Spirit are for; to profit the body withal; not individually.

1 Corinthians 12:7 does not say, "not individually" or anything of the sort. You have added it. Your belief rests upon eisegesis.

Revelation 22:18 "... if anyone adds to them [the words of this book], God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book"

 

[Dino246]

If tongues is still for our day and of course people are speaking in tongues then why do we not make and admen to the Bible and put these words in that God has given then utterance to speak ?? Surely these words are of the utmost Importance because this is God giving a revelation and for that reason everybody should know this and for reasons of edification.

The answer to your question is simple: because nobody is claiming that messages given by the Holy Spirit today are "scripture". They are revelations given to specific people in specific contexts. The prophecies of Philip's daughters weren't Scripture either, nor were the other prophecies given by Agabus. He was already recognized as a prophet before he spoke in Acts 11:28; how could that be, if your position were valid?

 

[Lighthearted]

I'm looking for a definition for "free vocalization" and Im not finding one. Humor me and tell me what your definition is.Thanks.

The only freedom I've experienced EVER with tongues is when I knew God wanted me to speak through me in church and I hesitated of my own free will because He had never done so before. He immediately used someone else. I will never hesitate again.

 

[Waggles]

37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge
that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 14:

 

[Waggles]

In reply to Enow (and other unbelievers)

1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy,
with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Timothy 4:14
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins:
keep thyself pure.
1 Timothy 5:22
6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God,
which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love,
and of a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on
unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works,
and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection
of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Hebrews 6:

 

[shrume]

In reply to Enow (and other unbelievers)

Enow is not an unbeliever. He's just wrong on several of the things he believes.

 

[UnderGrace]

Simple translation of the point that Paul is making...

He is referring to a language that may not be known to the people present, that is why the KJV translators inserted unknown


If a person is speaking in a language (that is foreign to the congregation) and only the person speaking understands the language then only person this is speaking benefits.

Basically he is stating what good is it then if only one person benefits, the one who knows the language.

One line out of context of the entire message is problematic

Paul is clearly instructing the congregants

An unknown tongue, foreign language, is a language that the listener does not understand. It is to be avoided because it serves no purpose.

Please explain your understanding of 1 Corinthians 14:4 "One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself", and how, in your view, that is "not a biblical idea".

 

[shrume]

Simple translation of the point that Paul is making...

He is referring to a language that may not be known to the people present, that is why the KJV translators inserted unknown

Paul is referring to the manifestation of speaking in tongues. The person speaking in tongues does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14). And since people meeting together generally speak the same language, other people cannot understand it either. That's why, when spoken aloud in the church, tongues must always be interpreted.

If a person is speaking in a language (that is foreign to the congregation) and only the person speaking understands the language then only person this is speaking benefits.

When a person speaks in tongues, the language he is speaking is definitely foreign to him, and almost always foreign to the other people present.

Basically he is stating what good is it then if only one person benefits, the one who knows the language.

The person speaking in tongues does not understand what he is saying.

One line out of context of the entire message is problematic

Your entire understanding of what speaking in tongues is is problematic.

Paul is clearly instructing the congregants

Yes. He is instructing them on the proper usage of the manifestation of speaking in tongues.

An unknown tongue, foreign language, is a language that the listener does not understand. It is to be avoided because it serves no purpose.

When a person speaks in tongues, he does not understand what he is saying (1 Cor 14:2, 14), and neither does anyone who might hear him speaking (except in very rare circumstances). That is why when tongues is spoken out loud in the congregation, it must always be interpreted.