Can God create the eternal?

[Zmouth]

Since the eternal is the nature of living matter which has always existed, exists and will always exist, then can God create living matter which is eternal considering that any living thing which is created has not always existed. And if it hasn't always existed then can it be considered eternal.

 

[Adstar]

Yes God can create eternal Matter.. But He is yet to do so.. There shall be a New heavens and a New earth and we shall have bodies that will be incorruptable.. We shall have eternal life.. Thus we shall be eternal..

PS:: I think we may have different definitions of the word Eternal.. We have been created.. therefore we are not from eternal.. But we shall exist for eternity therefore we shall be to eternal.. Meaning we shall be Eternal..

 

[dcontroversal]

Since the eternal is the nature of living matter which has always existed, exists and will always exist, then can God create living matter which is eternal considering that any living thing which is created has not always existed. And if it hasn't always existed then can it be considered eternal.

The things made are not made of what they appear to be made of......just think.....everything we see is made up of atoms to the proverbial "enth" power....vibrating in sequence and all containing their own mini nuclear power pack if you will....

All things "stands together" consists by the very word of GOD and he upholds ALL things by his power......

At the end of the day and in a round about way this is all a giant construct held together and powered by GOD.....God is eternal, all knowing and all powerful....so..it stands to reason that as long as God is....anything he makes will be eternal....

Whatsoever GOD does, it is everlasting, nothing added or taken away and he does this so men may fear before him..... "Ecclesiastes 3:14"

Energy cannot be destroyed, it just changes form <---The law if you will....

Exactly why God has two destinies for men who have been brought into existence....they are eternal................

Ponder that nugget for a moment

 

[Adstar]

Yes God can create eternal Matter.. But He is yet to do so.. There shall be a New heavens and a New earth and we shall have bodies that will be incorruptable.. We shall have eternal life.. Thus we shall be eternal..

PS:: I think we may have different definitions of the word Eternal.. We have been created.. therefore we are not from eternal.. But we shall exist for eternity therefore we shall be to eternal.. Meaning we shall be Eternal..

I will also add the following from Jesus::

Matthew 25: KJV
45"Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. {46} And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

 

[Zmouth]

PS:: I think we may have different definitions of the word Eternal..

Maybe, but actually eternal, like mortal are the natures of living matter, or life forms which are defined by principle.

For example, mortal is the nature of living matter, or a life form which has a) a beginning of life, or birth; and b) has an end of life, or death. In such, eternal is the nature of living matter, or a life form which has a) always existed; and b) will always exist.

I will also add the following from Jesus::

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39

 

[maxwel]

Since the eternal is the nature of living matter which has always existed, exists and will always exist, then can God create living matter which is eternal considering that any living thing which is created has not always existed. And if it hasn't always existed then can it be considered eternal.

Whether or not God can create eternal things depends on our definition of ETERNAL:

Definition = to have infinite past and infinite future
If we use this definition from the opening post, something which has always existed in the past and will always exist in the future.... then no, God cannot create anything that fits THIS definition of eternal.
(This is explained more at bottom of page.)

Definition = to have finite past, and only infinite future
If we want to use a different definition of eternal, which only means created things which can go eternally into the future, then this is something God CAN create, and which we find in the bible.




Their are several reasons God could not have created anything with an eternal past.

1. It is a logical contradiction - a self refuting statement:
If a thing is "created" it immediately violates the definition of "infinite past"... as the very act of creating it fixes it's beginning at some finite point in time.
- Basically, to say "created with an eternal past" is a self refuting statement... it is a self contradiction.
- If a thing is "created" then it's past cannot be eternal and infinite... it was created. It had a moment of creation before which it did not exist... therefore, it can't have existed from infinity.

2. There are other reasons, but reason #1 makes any more reasons unnecessary.
- For example, we could talk about God's aseity, which inherently makes the existence of any other "eternal things" impossible... but reason #1 makes it unnecessary to give any more reasons.

 

[Zmouth]

Energy cannot be destroyed, it just changes form <---The law if you will....

What is the atomic number of energy? It doesn't have one does it because it is not an actual substance, so no it can't be created nor destroyed because it does actually exist except theoretically. Energy is the measurement of force that can be produced by mass.

So using a car as an example, the gasoline is not energy, but the mass of gas when ignited can produce the force necessary to push the pistons which turn the crankshaft which is transferred thru the transmission to the drives shaft which turns the wheels producing the motion of the car.

So if energy can not be destroyed then theoretically you should have as much energy available from the exhaust that you had from the gas. But you don't because the amount of force that is available from the exhaust is significantly less than was in the gasoline.

 

[OneFaith]

Since the eternal is the nature of living matter which has always existed, exists and will always exist, then can God create living matter which is eternal considering that any living thing which is created has not always existed. And if it hasn't always existed then can it be considered eternal.

I always thought of eternal as never ending- not never beginning. I know God has no beginning, yet I thought ‘eternal’ referenced His never ending, not His never beginning. Because we inherit eternal life- but we do have a beginning.

 

[Zmouth]

Definition = to have infinite past and infinite future
If we use this definition from the opening post, something which has always existed in the past and will always exist in the future.... then no, God cannot create anything that fits THIS definition of eternal.
(This is explained more at bottom of page.)

Definition = to have finite past, and only infinite future
If we want to use a different definition of eternal, which only means created things which can go eternally into the future, then this is something God CAN create, and which we find in the bible.

Since infinite and finite are terms used to define the dimensional nature of non living matter.

You can't have a finite past and a infinite future, nor can you have an infinite past and a finite future. Just like you can't divide 1 / 0.

That is basically trying to enter by the window.Matt 7:13-14

 

[Zmouth]

I always thought of eternal as never ending- not never beginning. I know God has no beginning, yet I thought ‘eternal’ referenced His never ending, not His never beginning. Because we inherit eternal life- but we do have a beginning.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39


And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning. John 15:27

 

[posthuman]

You can't have a finite past and a infinite future, nor can you have an infinite past and a finite future. Just like you can't divide 1 / 0.

There's not really any mathematical reason you can't. Geometrically, you'd have a ray, as opposed to a line. A definite beginning, and no end.
Or another example would be the natural numbers, { 1. 2, 3. 4 . . . } which begin at a finite point, but go on to infinity.

 

[maxwel]

Since infinite and finite are terms used to define the dimensional nature of non living matter.

You can't have a finite past and a infinite future, nor can you have an infinite past and a finite future. Just like you can't divide 1 / 0.

That is basically trying to enter by the window.Matt 7:13-14

You really want to equivocate theological and philosophical terms into nonsense by using particular definitions which are only specific and applicable to physics?

This is equivocation.
This isn't a logical argument.


Many of the top scholars in the world, and many academic fields outside of physics, regularly use the terms "finite" and "infinite" to refer to time, abstract objects, God, mind, human souls, and many other things beyond your narrow definition which is only applicable in physics.

Surely you're educated enough to know this.
So if you're educated enough to know this, and you're also educated enough, surely, to read what I wrote and know what I meant... why would you try to repudiate my position through something as blatantly dishonest as intentionally equivocating on terms?

What would drive you to do this?

I'll leave other people to answer that, I don't know you that well.



Have fun in the thread everyone.
I'll be attending to more pressing things... like starching my shorts.

 

[Zmouth]

Or another example would be the natural numbers, { 1. 2, 3. 4 . . . } which begin at a finite point, but go on to infinity.

LOL, it would be definite point. Finite has two points, a start or beginning point and and end point.

finite
Calling something finite means it has an end or finishing point.
https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/finite

 

[trofimus]

Since the eternal is the nature of living matter which has always existed, exists and will always exist

What do you mean by this? Matter was created and is not eternal.

 

[Zmouth]

You really want to equivocate theological and philosophical terms into nonsense by using particular definitions which are only specific and applicable to physics?

So where do you see in the scriptures the terms infinite or finite? I prefer to discuss the things of reality not the imaginary. Yet considering the passage of John 3:12

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Physics (from Ancient Greek: φυσική (ἐπιστήμη) phusikḗ (epistḗmē) "knowledge of nature", from φύσις phúsis "nature")

 

[Zmouth]

What do you mean by this? Matter was created and is not eternal.

So in the beginning matter was created? Or was it mass that was created?

 

[trofimus]

So in the beginning matter was created? Or was it mass that was created?

Both,only God is uncreated.

 

[BenFTW]

So where do you see in the scriptures the terms infinite or finite? I prefer to discuss the things of reality not the imaginary. Yet considering the passage of John 3:12

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Physics (from Ancient Greek: φυσική (ἐπιστήμη) phusikḗ (epistḗmē) "knowledge of nature", from φύσις phúsis "nature")

Not everything eternal exists forever. Were not angels created eternally, made of spirit? Yet, what shall the end be for those that fell, the fallen angels? Those that rebelled against God were once eternal, yet they shall meet their demise.

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Your definition of eternal being the nature of living matter that has always existed is somewhat tricky because you choose to use the word matter. Do you consider spirit, the immaterial, matter? If not, why do you define eternity as the nature of living matter that has always existed, as opposed to eternal being the nature of that which has never been created and is self-existing?

God created beings that are eternal, yet He is capable of destroying them. God created a tree that could give eternal life, yet God removed Adam and Eve from the garden to avoid eternal damnation, or separation from God, for in their sinful state to eat of the tree would've been condemnation.

To define eternal on the basis of self-existing, then no God cannot create eternal for then by definition it would not be eternal, but created. However, eternal defined as ever-lasting would then positively affirm that God can create the eternal. He created angels, and He created us who, if believing in Jesus Christ, have eternal life.

 

[Zmouth]

Your definition of eternal being the nature of living matter that has always existed is somewhat tricky because you choose to use the word matter. Do you consider spirit, the immaterial, matter? If not, why do you define eternity as the nature of living matter that has always existed, as opposed to eternal being the nature of that which has never been created and is self-existing?

Yes the spirit is matter, yet it is matter without mass.

Eternal: without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing
Eternal | Define Eternal at Dictionary.com

God created beings that are eternal, yet He is capable of destroying them. God created a tree that could give eternal life, yet God removed Adam and Eve from the garden to avoid eternal damnation, or separation from God, for in their sinful state to eat of the tree would've been condemnation.

If God created them then they are not eternal, and if eternal they could not be destroyed.

To define eternal on the basis of self-existing, then no God cannot create eternal for then by definition it would not be eternal, but created. However, eternal defined as ever-lasting would then positively affirm that God can create the eternal. He created angels, and He created us who, if believing in Jesus Christ, have eternal life.

Eternal is a principle which is established by precepts. Just as same mortal is based upon the precepts that a) it has a beginning of life and b) it is has an end of life. These precepts are reflected in the scriptures. [See Eccl 3:2] A time to be born, and a time to die;

• For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; Eccl 9:5

• But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6

 

[BenFTW]

Yes the spirit is matter, yet it is matter without mass.

Eternal: without beginning or end; lasting forever; always existing
Eternal | Define Eternal at Dictionary.com


If God created them then they are not eternal, and if eternal they could not be destroyed.



Eternal is a principle which is established by precepts. Just as same mortal is based upon the precepts that a) it has a beginning of life and b) it is has an end of life. These precepts are reflected in the scriptures. [See Eccl 3:2] A time to be born, and a time to die;

• For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; Eccl 9:5

• But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6

How many things can you name that are eternal?