The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[notmyown]

But they will: Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. And if they don't "hear" they are still without excuse . . . (Romans 1)

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 1 John 2:2

The ones who die in their sins are those who do not believe in Jesus Christ. God created us as independent individuals and has set before us a way to come to him - that is through faith (trust/belief) in Jesus Christ. We all know and believe "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12) It seems that where we disagree is HOW we get "faith" (belief).

God grants us the gift of faith - It is by God's grace, God's unmerited favor, that any of us are saved - For while we were yet sinners Christ died for the ungodly - that is God's grace - It is by God's grace through faith (faith/belief in whom?) by which we are saved and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God - what is the gift of God? Salvation, the new birth - we, by no means created that new creation in us . . . God did upon our belief in his Son.

hey, thanks for responding!

i think we see Christ's atonement differently. you see it as a potential atonement, based on the decision of people.
i see it as an actual atoning of sin, based on the foreknowledge of God.

i wonder why the Lord Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep", and not "I lay down my life for the whole world" ?

because, frankly, 'but they will' doesn't help those who have already died in their sins.

ps-- i think 1 Jn 2:2 is referring to Christ not just saving the children of Israel (our sins only), but the gentiles, too (but the whole world). otherwise, you have people who never repented and believed having had their sins atoned for, which, again, i believe was a real remittance of, payment for sin.

And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slain, and You purchased to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation (the whole world) (Rev 5:9)

it was a real purchase, a real atonement.

 

[notuptome]

ok then I don’t know what to say here . I go to Reformed congregations and the say their Calvinist,and then to Calvinist congregations and they say their Reformed. This is not some congregations but all I have visited. What gives then ? Yea I am sure you can find something on the net to refute that . It is still the experience most will have . Then agian I probably can find someone selling a football bat on the net too .
Blessings
Bill

Well it's not really all that difficult. To make the reformation all about Calvin is like making evangelical Christianity like Billy Graham.

The genesis of the reformation was Martin Luther and his five solas which were in his ninety five theses posted in opposition to Rome and the pope. Calvin globed onto the reformation in his fight against Arminius. Church history is fickle and few pay any real attention to any history let alone something as specific as church history.

The case you present is somewhat circular in that you reason the because this is my experience it must be authentic. Reminds me of much of what is plaguing Christianity today.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[peacefulbeliever]

hey, thanks for responding!

i think we see Christ's atonement differently. you see it as a potential atonement, based on the decision of people.
i see it as an actual atoning of sin, based on the foreknowledge of God.

i wonder why the Lord Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep", and not "I lay down my life for the whole world" ?

anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. . . . I am the gate for the sheep. . . . I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. . . . The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. . . . I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me . . . and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. = I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. = My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. = "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

because, frankly, 'but they will' doesn't help those who have already died in their sins

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20

ps-- i think 1 Jn 2:2 is referring to Christ not just saving the children of Israel (our sins only), but the gentiles, too (but the whole world). otherwise, you have people who never repented and believed having had their sins atoned for, which, again, i believe was a real remittance of, payment for sin.

And they are singing a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the scroll and to open its seals, because You were slain, and You purchased to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation (the whole world) (Rev 5:9)

it was a real purchase, a real atonement.

So you think 1 John 2:2 "our sins only" is referring to the Jews and "but also the sins of the whole world" refers to Gentiles. Ummm, never heard of it like that but I will have to disagree. 1 John 2 starts out with "My little children" which refers to believers - so v2 "our sins" would also be related to believers, those that believe in Christ, which would make them part of the body of Christ, then also for the sins of the whole world - those outside the body of Christ.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Originally Posted by notmyown

hey, thanks for responding!

i think we see Christ's atonement differently. you see it as a potential atonement, based on the decision of people.
i see it as an actual atoning of sin, based on the foreknowledge of God.


i wonder why the Lord Jesus said, "I lay down my life for the sheep", and not "I lay down my life for the whole world" ?

I wonder why you seem to choose to ignore the verses and frankly entire passages, prophecy and so on, that actually state that He did in fact lay down His life for whosoever will.

like the following:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies John 11:25

He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?
Romans 8:32

and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. II Corinthians 5:15


I would agree that Calvinism is a GROSS error as specified by the op

it is gross to misrepresent the very character of God to distort the fact that Jesus died for ALL, as the scriptures say, and go on to state that God played some kind of cosmic lottery and chose a few and denied salvation to anyone who did not have a 'winning' ticket

this indicates a capricious God, and not the One who loved the world He created so much He sent His only Son to die in our place so that we could have a restored relationship with Him and be with Him in eternity

I think some here are actually believing in hyper-Calvinism, not just Calvinism; in other words if a grasshopper gets run over by a car, God ordained it

 

[heartofdavid]

I wonder why you seem to choose to ignore the verses and frankly entire passages, prophecy and so on, that actually state that He did in fact lay down His life for whosoever will.

like the following:

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16

Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. John 3:18

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. Whoever rejects the Son will not see life. Instead, the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36

For it is My Father's will that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies John 11:25

He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, how will He not also, along with Him, freely give us all things?
Romans 8:32

and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. II Corinthians 5:15


I would agree that Calvinism is a GROSS error as specified by the op

it is gross to misrepresent the very character of God to distort the fact that Jesus died for ALL, as the scriptures say, and go on to state that God played some kind of cosmic lottery and chose a few and denied salvation to anyone who did not have a 'winning' ticket

this indicates a capricious God, and not the One who loved the world He created so much He sent His only Son to die in our place so that we could have a restored relationship with Him and be with Him in eternity

I think some here are actually believing in hyper-Calvinism, not just Calvinism; in other words if a grasshopper gets run over by a car, God ordained it

I will be borrowing that grasshopper dynamic.

Now for a break in the action.( a little humor)

What was the last thing that went through the grasshoppers mind as he hit the windshield?








His butt!

 

[7seasrekeyed]

you know Jesus said that the very hairs on our heads are numbered and He also said that God knows when the sparrow 'falls'

however, that is NOT a causative knowing, but rather the fact nothing escapes God's knowledge

now if a person has a skewed understanding of the doctrine of God, and piecemeals scripture together, they will always come up short of what knowledge of Himself God has actually provided to us

scripture, as some of us know, interprets itself and you CANNOT leave out some to form a doctrine that seems to resolve whatever difficulty in understanding you may have

Calvin apparently could not grasp the character of God as revealed in its totality in scripture

 

[valiant]

I think some here are actually believing in hyper-Calvinism, not just Calvinism; in other words if a grasshopper gets run over by a car, God ordained it.

Are you suggesting that God did not know about it beforehand or that He was helpless to stop it?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Are you suggesting that God did not know about it beforehand or that He was helpless to stop it?

are you kind of trying to misunderstand?

I said neither

are you familiar with the doctrine of God? it seems many are not

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

Are you suggesting that God did not know about it beforehand or that He was helpless to stop it?

are you kind of trying to misunderstand?

I said neither

are you familiar with the doctrine of God? it seems many are not

Well in my book if God created the world knowing that the grasshopper would be run over by a car, and did not stop it, He preordained it.

 

[valiant]

Calvin apparently could not grasp the character of God as revealed in its totality in scripture

Or perhaps the fault lies with you?

 

[Laish]

Are you suggesting that God did not know about it beforehand or that He was helpless to stop it?

Hey I don’t agree much with 7 on Reformed theology but if she means something she will say it not imply it . She doesn’t beat around the bush.
Blessings
Bill

 

[Laish]

Well in my book if God created the world knowing that the grasshopper would be run over by a car, and did not stop it, He preordained it.

You are confusing the Way Gods will is manifest.
1. The three meanings of the will of God:
(a) Sovereign decretive will, the will by which God brings to pass
whatsoever He decrees. This is hidden to us until it happens.
(b) Preceptive will is God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the
power but not the right to break.
(c) Will of disposition describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals
what is pleasing to Him.
2. God's sovereign "permission" of human sin is not His moral approval.
Blessings
Bill

 

[valiant]

You are confusing the Way Gods will is manifest.
1. The three meanings of the will of God:
(a) Sovereign decretive will, the will by which God brings to pass
whatsoever He decrees. This is hidden to us until it happens.
(b) Preceptive will is God's revealed law or commandments, which we have the
power but not the right to break.
(c) Will of disposition describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals
what is pleasing to Him.
2. God's sovereign "permission" of human sin is not His moral approval.
Blessings
Bill

I am confusing nothing. You are hiding behind words. God decreed all things that will happen as a consequence of His creation, by His very act of creating.

 

[Magenta]

I think some here are actually believing in hyper-Calvinism, not just Calvinism; in other words if a grasshopper gets run over by a car, God ordained it

To believe that God has ordained everything that ever happens is a heinous construct that has God directing people to break His very commandments. It is logically inconsistent and utterly abhorrent to make God the cause of evil men doing evil things, and yet, you are right, there are those who believe that. They ascribe to God the evil intentions and actions of men, and completely overlook the fact that God's sovereign will does not preclude His permissive will, and that His permissive does not preclude His moral will for man.

 

[heartofdavid]

Well in my book if God created the world knowing that the grasshopper would be run over by a car, and did not stop it, He preordained it.

I hit the like button.
It was sarcasm ,right?

 

[Laish]

Well it's not really all that difficult. To make the reformation all about Calvin is like making evangelical Christianity like Billy Graham.

The genesis of the reformation was Martin Luther and his five solas which were in his ninety five theses posted in opposition to Rome and the pope. Calvin globed onto the reformation in his fight against Arminius. Church history is fickle and few pay any real attention to any history let alone something as specific as church history.

The case you present is somewhat circular in that you reason the because this is my experience it must be authentic. Reminds me of much of what is plaguing Christianity today.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

well I guess what you see as wrong with Christianity is your experience?
There is a difference between Reformed theology and Lutheran or Luther’s theology . Yes I have read up on Church History. I am not mixing the two . Although the theological beliefs I hold are called Reformed those beliefs should not be confused with the totality of the reformation I believe you should know the difference sir .
More or less same era two different theological beliefs.
Blessings
Bill

 

[heartofdavid]

To believe that God has ordained everything that ever happens is a heinous construct that has God directing people to break His very commandments. It is logically inconsistent and utterly abhorrent to make God the cause of evil men doing evil things, and yet, you are right, there are those who believe that. They ascribe to God the evil intentions and actions of men, and completely overlook the fact that God's sovereign will does not preclude His permissive will, and that His permissive does not preclude His moral will for man.

Its what happens when man looks too deeply into what he does not understand.
(Thinks he MUST take a position)

 

[Laish]

I am confusing nothing. You are hiding behind words. God decreed all things that will happen as a consequence of His creation, by His very act of creating.

Not hiding sir .
Its simple. Look at it this way I as a father teach my daughter how to walk. I desire or it’s my will she should walk . I one day let go her hand knowing that she will fall and skin her knee . I did not want her to fall and get hurt in my passive will I let it happen.
Yes I let it happen did I want it or force it no .Did I will it in a passive sense yes .
Blessings
Bill

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Well in my book if God created the world knowing that the grasshopper would be run over by a car, and did not stop it, He preordained it.

well that just might be your book then

I don't find that in scripture though

you are actually stating that God preordains children to have cancer or be hit by a car or for that matter, the maniac who just killed all the people in the church in TX...including a pregnant mother of 3

that viewpoint, leaves out the entire doctrine of sin and the effect of living in a world that is spitting in the face of God

do you folks not understand what doctrines are and they are scriptural and that scripture does not contradict itself?

you cannot say on one hand that the Bible says Jesus died for all, John 3:16 being just one example, and then go on to say that everyone who is saved had no choice as does Calvinism

it is also totally illogical to state that a choice creates universalism

things have to make sense and the Bible does make sense when you go from Genesis to Revelation

it does not make sense if you study willy nilly and pick and choose and only do topical studies hoping to find what you think is truth

I guess to some I am just rambling here

 

[7seasrekeyed]

To believe that God has ordained everything that ever happens is a heinous construct that has God directing people to break His very commandments. It is logically inconsistent and utterly abhorrent to make God the cause of evil men doing evil things, and yet, you are right, there are those who believe that. They ascribe to God the evil intentions and actions of men, and completely overlook the fact that God's sovereign will does not preclude His permissive will, and that His permissive does not preclude His moral will for man.

as you have stated and I also believe

I am not sure some see that they are actually creating such a skewed view of God who is love

then again, if you purpose to believe that God causes everything, then I guess you can say God created sin and causes us to sin

and yes, it is utterly abhorrent which lends me to think they do not actually understand what God states about Himself