The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[fredoheaven]

Bottom line - We are all Christians if we believe in the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. The debate is in which comes first: regeneration or faith [trust, belief] in Christ.

I found this as vrey true. Is faith applicable in pre regeneration or post regeneration? I believe it is a pre regenreation. Faith or belief preceds life or regeneration. See John 20.31 John 3.36 1 tim. 1.16 and gal.3.16

 

[valiant]

What is limited atonement? It is atonement limited to those who believe. So it seems to me that we have to accept limited atonement, or be universalists.

 

[fredoheaven]

I was thinking about this last night also I understand the logic of saying that Christ's death is efficacious only for those who believe, for as all affirm, salvation is contingent upon repentance and belief, and since God knew before hand who would respond to the call and who would not, that makes sense. But Jesus came for the whole world desiring all to be saved regardless of whether all would be saved or not. Some claim that makes God a weak God but, hmmm, I don't think so. I do not believe that God creates people, gives them no option, and then punishes them forever after for not making a choice that was not present for them to make in the first place. He has given all the gift of life, whether they believe in Him or not, but only those who acknowledge Who He is as creator of the universe and giver of life shall receive more life via the resurrection to new life through faith in Christ, for in Him we live and move and have out being. Yes He draws us and yes He makes it possible, but ultimately at some point the choice is put before us and we must choose.

I saw someone else post as if everyone who does not identify with Calvinistic thought was automatically Arminian. That seems a fairly gross error to me, also. I find elements of both reflect the truth of God's Word, but neither does wholly or sufficiently, in my view Doctrines of men...

Have you ever heard Adrian Rogers preach? His ministry carries on even after his death

[video=youtube;WRS_ULKek0U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRS_ULKek0U&t=1136s[/video]

I hope this message finds you well

Ok. Get your biblical balance view. God bless!

 

[trofimus]

I saw someone else post as if everyone who does not identify with Calvinistic thought was automatically Arminian. That seems a fairly gross error to me, also. I find elements of both reflect the truth of God's Word, but neither does wholly or sufficiently, in my view Doctrines of men...

True. There are more views and possibilities than these two...

And its naive to think that any side, any view, is without any mistake. The truth will not be fully in any specific catechism, but rather "here a little, there a little" throughout Christianity.

Which does not mean that some theological systems are not better than others or more truthful than others.

 

[Grandpa]

What is limited atonement? It is atonement limited to those who believe. So it seems to me that we have to accept limited atonement, or be universalists.

It seems really simple to me too.

I suppose it is people trying to make Salvation about what they do and not about what God does. People get pretty worked up over that.

 

[notuptome]

What is limited atonement? It is atonement limited to those who believe. So it seems to me that we have to accept limited atonement, or be universalists.

Well if you are able to have the Calvinists agree to that definition we will have peace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Depleted]

The SAVED are reconciled, not vessels of wrath. Saved are pre-destined to be saved. You can't lose salvation or we are stronger than God. The same is said for trying to save others, we can't do it. It's pre-destined by God. Every sickness and step is also, otherwise it's our will and we can do what we will, against the will of God, even though neberchudnezzer was shown, he was allowed by the will of God, to do what he did.

Man cannot have will, right?

Hm. Interesting. I am reformed yet am going to say this anyway.

Yes, I do have will. I have willed myself to learn marketing, and now I can market. I willed myself to learn gardening, and now the (small) majority of my plants live the standard number of months/years. I willed myself to learn html, and failed. I willed myself to learn how to write and I have worked all the way up to not-too-bad. I've got no problems with will.

BUT, as much will as I have, I just never willed myself to the Lord. Never thought of any particularly good reason to want to. After all, he's the one who doesn't think it's a good idea for me to be haughty, or gossipy, or stoned, or drunk, or self-centered, and I'm all about self-centered naturally, so why would I want to be him-centered or others-centered? Self-centered worked for me.

Yet, he changed that all by a flash of his Light. And once his brightness and love showed up, suddenly I wanted to follow.

I've got no problems with will. I just know it wasn't my will that brought me to him.

 

[Depleted]

So if we believe differently than you believe here we are not Christians?
Bill

I'll be so bold as to say some really aren't Christians. But you're not one I consider a not-Christian.

 

[shrume]

I've got no problems with will. I just know it wasn't my will that brought me to him.

God works in all people. He wants all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4). He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).

You, by your will, chose to answer God's call. Not everyone does.

 

[Depleted]

But one can say the Bible says "There is no God" . . . but there is more to it: The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile;there is no one who does good. Psalm 53:1 . . . so one that says such a thing is a fool.

What does Romans 10:9,10 mean to you then?

To say someone is wrong either in their "opinion" or their understanding - there has to be a right that goes against what they have said or understood.

Sure, one can say there is no God in the Bible, but it's such an obvious lie, why argue it? It's utterly ridiculous and there is no purpose in debating someone who is utterly ridiculous. (Which, just so you know, means I don't think you're utterly ridiculous by a long shot, or I wouldn't have bothered answering you.)

What do I think Romans 10:9-10 mean? The first word to those verses is "because." That in itself says the information is incomplete to get anything out of it without context. And what's the context? There's a long and short answer to that. The shorter on starts at Romans 10:1. The longer one starts at Romans 1:7. It's about God's righteousness. The effect of God's righteousness. He's the cause. We're the effect.

That's the right! The entire Bible is about God. Too many see the entire Bible about us. In relationship to God, the only thing the Bible teaches us about us is we screwed up. Every. Single. Time!

Not good to count on us for a firm resolution. It's kind of like being taught by a dog everything there is to know about cats.

 

[Depleted]

1. To respond to Bible truth as a "song and dance" indicates that you are really not interest in Gospel truth, just your dogmas.

2. Those who disagree with me (which is irrelevant in this context, since the issue is about disagreeing with God) can also be Christians, and only God knows the hearts. We have no business determining who is a Christian and who is not. But we have every business in exposing the lies of the Devil.

3. There are many Christians in the Reformed Camp who are genuinely saved and genuinely believe the lies of the Devil also. Which is a shame.

Heads up -- you're not God.

 

[Depleted]

Bottom line - We are all Christians if we believe in the only begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ. The debate is in which comes first: regeneration or faith [trust, belief] in Christ.

Really? Because Neh is telling the "error of limited atonement."

This is the Calvinist's order of Salvation:

• Predestination
• Election
• Calling
• Regeneration
• Faith
• Repentance
• Justification
• Adoption
• Sanctification
• Perseverance
• Glorification

Which is your version?

 

[Depleted]

Well if you are able to have the Calvinists agree to that definition we will have peace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Not that hard to google our belief on limited atonement. That is it!

 

[Innerfire89]

Well if you are able to have the Calvinists agree to that definition we will have peace.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Faith is a gift to us from God. It's the elect, who have attonment, who are the believers.

 

[notuptome]

Faith is a gift to us from God. It's the elect, who have attonment, who are the believers.

Scripture says that faith comes from hearing and hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17

Verse 18 But I say have they not all heard? Yes verily their sound went into all the earth and their words unto the ends of the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

Heads up -- you're not God.

And you're not God either. And that's exactly why you and other Calvinists should believe the Word of God -- which I clearly posted -- and which you continue to reject, in favor on man-made doctrines.

Since you quote Spurgeon all the time, let me quote from Spurgeon to show that Calvinists do not believe the Word of God.

We think that Calvin, after all, knew more about the gospel than almost any uninspired man who has ever lived)! We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men, or all men would be saved. [From Sermon #181 -- Particular Redemption (Limited Atonement)]

Now please notice the last phrase "or all men would be saved". Nobody in their right mind or with an ounce of Gospel knowledge would claim that just because Christ's atonement is unlimited, all men would be automatically saved. That is utter nonsense, so why did Spurgeon even make such a remark? And why did Spurgeon fail to add that it only through repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ that men are saved?

While Christ died for the sins of the whole world, it is only those who obey the Gospel who are saved, and thus the atonement applies only to them. So once again, I will post the Scripture that clearly refutes and repudiates limited atonement, and Spurgeon did not even refer to this verse (Dabney did but then would not accept the logical and spiritual conclusion).

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 1:1,2).

 

[notuptome]

Really? Because Neh is telling the "error of limited atonement."

This is the Calvinist's order of Salvation:

• Predestination
• Election
• Calling
• Regeneration
• Faith
• Repentance
• Justification
• Adoption
• Sanctification
• Perseverance
• Glorification

Which is your version?

Not that hard to google our belief on limited atonement. That is it!

Bible says believe and be saved. Where is that in your extensive list?

For someone who does not study Calvinism you certainly have the propaganda at your fingertips.

Joh 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.


For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[7seasrekeyed]

what is with the Calvinists telling us we are not God?

is that their final argument?

get exasperated and tell someone they are not God?

what does that even mean since no one but God is God?

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Wow, I can't believe our whole conversations are GONE!

I am just going to say: God's gift of eternal life is available to all men through Jesus Christ. If one does not believe in Jesus Christ - one is condemned . . . . so in the sense that one has to believe in Jesus Christ to receive the gift of eternal life - I believe in limited atonement. The "gift" is there but one has to receive it by, through Jesus Christ. When one believes in Jesus Christ, confesses him as Lord and believes in his heart that God raised Jesus from the dead then one is saved - sealed with Holy Spirit, i.e. belief, then regeneration. Regeneration can only begin when one is born again of the Spirit and one is born of the Spirit through faith (belief/trust) in Jesus Christ.

Please, everyone don't just tell me my understanding is wrong without giving an explanation as to why it is wrong. Thanks

you can provide all the scripture you want, point out why Calvinism is so wrong, patiently try to work through it and it will be ignored and then you are dismissed like a gnat and it starts over

another reason why Calvinism makes no sense apart from the fact it disagrees with scripture

 

[Nehemiah6]

What is limited atonement? It is atonement limited to those who believe.

That is certainly NOT what the Bible reveals. The APPLICATION of atonement is limited to those who believe, but the atonement itself is NOT limited at all. Christ took away the sin of the WORLD, Christ became a ransom FOR ALL, God laid on Christ the INIQUITY OF US ALL, Christ tasted death FOR EVERY MAN, Christ was made the Propitiation (Atoning Sacrifice) for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD.

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

What John is doing here is rebuking and refuting the Calvinists. He is saying that Jesus Christ is not only the Propitiation for the sins of those who have believed ("my little children"), but He made an atoning sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. Which means that if all would repent and believe, all would be saved. Which means that Five Point Calvinism is false doctrine from start to finish. And Christians can be genuinely saved and also genuinely believe false doctrines.