The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Rokurac]

God commands every man everywhere to repent and whosoever believes are quoted over and over again. As if anyone from the reformed camp has denied these verses to be true.

Yes God commands every man everywhere to repent, and yes whosoever believes, and yes we must believe to be saved. The question is not that. The question is, who are the ones who believe and repent? They would be the ones who the Father has given to Jesus, of whom He shall lose NONE:

John 6:37-39
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Those bones were a typology of how the lost are inwardly. That is why Jesus said many times "let him who has ears hear". Not everyone has those ears. Jesus said "My sheep hear My voice." When Jesus calls His lost sheep, they hear His voice and follow. This calling is via the gospel. As we speak the words of the gospel, God quickens them to life and they exercise faith & repentance and are saved.

And for verese that say they are given faith and repentance?

Acts 13:48 Romans 9:16, Romans 10:17, Romans 12:3, Philippians 2:13, &c.

Those "bones" in Ezekiel reference the resurrection . . . Therefore prophecy and say unto them, Thus says the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves and bring you into the land of Israel. And you shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves.

What is the gospel by which we are called? Jesus Christ was the Messiah, He was born, crucified and raised to eternal life and those who believe in him, repent and are baptized for the remission of sins, receive the gift of holy Spirit. Those who confess him as Lord and believe that God raised him from the dead shall be saved.

With both Moses and Pharaoh, God had the choice not to wait for them to change and obey, and that is the meaning of God "has mercy on whom he wants, and he hardens whom he wants" It is God's choice to work with, or not work with, people who disobey. He could have just wiped Pharaoh out from the beginning . . . but he kept giving him chances to change his mind . . . Pharaoh could have repented after any one of the plagues put upon Egypt but he refused.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher . . . Faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God . . . That is the purpose of preaching -

Yep, God gives every man the same measure of faith . . . no one is better than any one else - we all are equal. When someone is healed and someone else is not - people will respond with "You just don't have enough faith (you can't believe enough for the healing or you just don't believe God) and that is why you weren't healed" - then the one that was healed "What great faith you have!" I'm sure you've heard that kind of stuff before!

Yep, God does work in those that confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father . . . He works in us to want to do His good pleasure.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Also Acts 5:31 and Acts 11:18.

These two verses do not mean that God "gives" repentance. He gave us the "means" to repent. His Son . . . The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom you slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins . . . Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. And Israel "denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you" so salvation was offered to the Gentiles - the way of salvation was also given to the Gentiles . . . Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit, Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ . . . . If God "gives" repentance, why throughout scripture is mankind told to "turn from their evil ways" and to "repent" as in a command?

 

[Jackson123]

This subject is not an easy subject.

One thing for sure, who ever believe in Jesus will be save

and God command to preach the gospel to all nation

just because one believe limited atonement do not mean preach the gospel only to the elect.

For or people who believe limited atonement may choose only preach to the elect, and it is not easy to know if one is elect or not

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Hi Roger,

I know that it is Spiritual death that is why they can do nothing morally good pleasing to God, that is also why they will never come out of their darkness.

Your right faith comes by hearing, and yet (spiritually dead) men do not hear the things of God in fact they outright reject them. The Holy Spirit renews the heart this opens the eyes and ears and bring newness of life, so that the man who was dead but now is alive WILL believe.

Grace is not frustrated, indeed it is magnified by the fact that God brings the dead and raises them to newness of life in His Son. Remember man in his sinful state does not want God's grace! God saving his sheep is real mercy indeed!

I have a question . . . In the fall when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil - did not mankind gain that knowledge? If natural man has the choice to work to pay for a car or to go steal a car - and according to you, man's natural inclination is to do evil, i.e. go steal a car . . . why don't we have more thieves stealing cars? Or even just more thieves in general . . . Why is it that God would put forth commands to mankind to do something that they cannot help but do and then hold him responsible for what he did? There are "natural" men everywhere that make good, wise decisions concerning their money, jobs, friends, health, etc.

If no one who God wants saved can resist his will and remain unsaved, i.e. irresistible grace, is it really accurate to say that God "commands" people to repent and turn from their evil ways? Again, asking man to do something he cannot do. Honestly, is that a just God?

Yes, indeed, God brings the dead and raises them to newness of life IN and THROUGH his Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Snoozy]

Why is it that God would put forth commands to mankind to do something that they cannot help but do and then hold him responsible for what he did?

yes this is something to consider. makes no sense

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

Why is it that God would put forth commands to mankind to do something that they cannot help but do and then hold him responsible for what he did?

yes this is something to consider. makes no sense

It is to bring out their sinfulness. ALL men are guilty before God. He calls on them to repent, but they will not unless He chooses them and works faith within them (Eph 1.3 on).

He says so. We need to beware of criticising God {Rom 9),

 

[Nehemiah6]

It is to bring out their sinfulness. ALL men are guilty before God. He calls on them to repent, but they will not unless He chooses them and works faith within them (Eph 1.3 on).

God does NOT contradict Himself, neither does He play favorites. So the above is pure nonsense. God cannot possible command all men to repent, and then prevent the majority from being saved by picking only a few for salvation. Only a Calvinistic distortion of God would produce such a caricature. Here is the truth from the Bible which you should believe, and reject all the false man-made theology:

1. All men are sinners and guilty before God.

2. Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

3. God offers the free gift of eternal life to anyone and everyone.

4. God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5. God commands all men everywhere to repent.

6. Christ draws all men to Himself.

If some will not obey the Gospel, that does NOT mean that all of the above is false. It simply means that some men love darkness rather than light.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. (John 3:19).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Yes God commands every man everywhere to repent, and yes whosoever believes, and yes we must believe to be saved. The question is not that. The question is, who are the ones who believe and repent?

No. The question is "Does God offer salvation to all of humanity through Christ?" And the answer is ABSOLUTELY.

Also, Calvinists love to quote selectively from the Gospel of John while blatantly ignoring the verses that clearly state that Christ died for the sins of the whole world. And if that is true, then all human beings could be saved if all would obey the Gospel. But that is what is denied by Five Point Calvinism.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

It is to bring out their sinfulness. ALL men are guilty before God. He calls on them to repent, but they will not unless He chooses them and works faith within them (Eph 1.3 on).

He says so. We need to beware of criticising God {Rom 9),

I was not in anyway criticizing God . . .

I know ALL men are guilty before God and if ALL men are guilty then He commands that ALL men repent but we aren't allowed to repent UNLESS He chooses for us to repent. . . . He did choose us to repent by commanding us to repent. . . . Something wrong with this picture.

Ezekiel 33:11 says "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel? In this verse God is pleading with people to turn from their evil, but they really can't turn from their evil without God's help - so God is pleading with them to do something He knows they cannot do. Worse, He could help them turn from their sin, but He refuses to. Doesn't this make God's plea disingenuous and misleading?

From the plain reading of scripture, God sets before us a choice - to believe in his Son and receive eternal life or stay in unbelief and receive the wrath of God. That is what He truly sets before us but yet he doesn't really let us make that choice?

 

[Rokurac]

Using humans to deliver the message seems like a bad idea if universal salvation is the goal and it depends on humans entirely.. God must have known that no person in the Americas will hear the Gospel preached for a long time, since the Apostles only dealt with the roman empire mainly. It was setup that way. If it was not, there is some incompetence at play, and that I would not put on God.

God could have sent angels to preach the Gospel everywhere, yet He chose a different method.

 

[Rokurac]

^To add to what I said above, this only applies obviously if you believe you must hear the Gospel/repent/believe it to be saved.

If Jesus died on the cross and atoned for the sins of everyone automatically, then naturally the sin of unbelief is covered and everyone will be saved. So preaching the Gospel will only prepone the actual salvation.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

^To add to what I said above, this only applies obviously if you believe you must hear the Gospel/repent/believe it to be saved.

If Jesus died on the cross and atoned for the sins of everyone automatically, then naturally the sin of unbelief is covered and everyone will be saved. So preaching the Gospel will only prepone the actual salvation.

again we have to hear about the universalism that to some seem the only option apart from Mr Calvin's interpretation


mshuge

 

[Nehemiah6]

Using humans to deliver the message seems like a bad idea if universal salvation is the goal and it depends on humans entirely.

So now you are blaming God for a "bad idea".

God must have known that no person in the Americas will hear the Gospel preached for a long time, since the Apostles only dealt with the roman empire mainly.

So you would have had a better plan. Good for you.

It was setup that way. If it was not, there is some incompetence at play, and that I would not put on God.

You are certainly implying it.

God could have sent angels to preach the Gospel everywhere, yet He chose a different method.

Yes He did.

But none of this is relevant, since we can and should go simply by what is revealed in Scripture. So why don't you stick with that?

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.

20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Rom 10:18-21)

 

[valiant]

Originally Posted by valiant

It is to bring out their sinfulness. ALL men are guilty before God. He calls on them to repent, but they will not unless He chooses them and works faith within them (Eph 1.3 on).

God does NOT contradict Himself, neither does He play favorites.

If you mean by that He does not choose one over another you are wrong. He does not play favourites, but He chooses whom He will. Romans 9 makes that quite clear,

So the above is pure nonsense.

You are accusing God of nonsense? I would be careful if I was you.

G

od cannot possible command all men to repent, and then prevent the majority from being saved by picking only a few for salvation.

He does not prevent anyone from responding. But He knows that they are dead in trespasses and sins, and if He did not elect men to be saved. none would be saved.

Only a Calvinistic distortion of God would produce such a caricature.

Really? Perhaps the Calvinist has it right, and you may be wrong.

Here is the truth from the Bible which you should believe, and reject all the false man-made theology:

1. All men are sinners and guilty before God.

Agreed.

2. Christ died for the sins of the whole world.

But not effectively for the sins of everyone in the world.

3. God offers the free gift of eternal life to anyone and everyone.

But He knows who will reject Him.

4. God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

That is His wish, but He knows that that cannot be,

5. God commands all men everywhere to repent.

true.

6. Christ draws all men to Himself.

Not effectively.

If some will not obey the Gospel, that does NOT mean that all of the above is false. It simply means that some men love darkness rather than light.

So you loved the light on your own accord? You thus have partly earned your salvation? God said otherwise.

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

(John 3:19).

Therefore all are condemned without the grace of God acting on their behalf.

I will leave you in your superiority, but beware. It denies the whole of Scripture.

 

[Snoozy]

"God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth."
That is His wish, but He knows that that cannot be,

"Christ draws all men to Himself."
Not effectively.

u just contradicted urself.
u responded to brother Nehemiah saying that God wants all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth by saying yes that is His wish but He knows that that cannot be.

but then later u say its true God commands everyone to repent and that Christ does not effectively draw everyone to Him and He didnt effectively die for all.

so if its His wish as u say that all will be saved, then He would of died for all, and would draw all, since u guys teach no one can resist God's will.

so thats a contradiction. God is mad at Himself for not granting Himself the wish of everyone getting saved? doesnt make much sense

 

[Johnny_B]

the reason u find so many books is because calvinism is very academic. very theoretic. and its so complicated that there needs to be books written. for example two of everything, i watched a debate on youtube and they have two wills. "decree will" and the other oen i cant remember, two calls, general call and effectual call. so thats why u need books because of complicated terms like that.
its like the trinity. u have a bunch of books about it when u could just show it in the bible from a couple verses with no philosophical exercises needed. sometimes the books are longer than the bible itself

if u just pick up the bible and read it u dont need any doctrines of grace or doctrines of arminianism. those are just theoretical academic books made by someone somewhere. they can contain some good information and things for sure. but i dont think people in the early church had to read theology books, most people couldnt probably even read.

It is interesting that you say that because I had to be taught Arminianism, when I first read Romans 8:29-30 I spoke with my pastor at the time and said is that awesome how the Lord choses us by His foreknowledge and he told me I was misunderstanding it. That foreknowledge meant that God looked down through time and seen that I was going to chose Him so He chose me. My simple reading of the Scriptures showed me that the Lord elects or choses people to salvation. as for the early Church not having books to read they whad plenty, here is the apostle Paul asking that his books be brought to him.

II Timothy 4:13 When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, also the books, and above all the parchments.

The Lord also gave the Church teachers and teachers write books. I Corinthians 12:27-28 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it.28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues.

Lots of books are sermons that men have taught and someone put them in book form so others could benifit from the teaching.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I will leave you in your superiority, but beware. It denies the whole of Scripture.

And I will leave you to your wilful blindness and your distortion of Bible truth.

 

[Johnny_B]

Yes one needs to be born again no argument there.

How do you define repent?

People post scripture all the time, if only, if only it were that easy , then we would probably not even need this bible discussion board

Acctually there are those factions in the Church so we can know who is right.

I Corinthians 11:18-19 For first of all, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.19 For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.

But with the Doctrine of Grace it boils down to who you think initiates salvation, God or man. Since the word grace by which we are saved, means unmerited favor. To me that can only mean that salvation begins with God and him giving us that unmerited favor to repnt and believe.

The Bible is clear that man cannot plase God in the flesh and we are spiritually dead, so only God can bring us to spiritual laife so that we can repent and believe.

 

[shrume]

I will leave you in your superiority, but beware. It denies the whole of Scripture.

And I will leave you to your wilful blindness and your distortion of Bible truth.

Jesus must be SO blessed to see this kind of crap.