The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Nehemiah6]

I understand that, but Atonement is still limited, limited by man. I can't see why what I'm saying can't be comprehended. Atonement supplied by God is unlimited, but their is an obstacle in front of man that makes it limited, which is faith. Therefore atonement in whole isn't unlimited.

Is there anyone here who understands what I'm getting at?

We're not talking about what man does or does not do, and therein lies the problem. We are talking about what God and Christ have done in that one great sacrifice for sin. Do you see how you are shifting the focus?

To take another example, Christ's enemies accused Him of doing His miracles through the power of the Devil. That was what man was doing. But do we give that any credibility or do we believe what God says about His Son?

 

[notuptome]

Then it's limited by one's disobedience to the Gospel. It's offered to all and is what I believe, which goes against Calvinism, but not all will receive it therefore it can't be unlimited. It's man who makes it limited, not God. If Atonement was fully unlimited then wouldn't that be universalism, everyone gets to heaven?

Good luck teaching the hard shell Calvinists to accept that simple yet evident truth.

In the end of the day it is much easier to convince oneself they are elect than it is to surrender ones will to God. The sinner must choose to lay down their self righteousness and accept the blood of Christ to atone for their personal sin before a holy and righteous God.

For the cause of Christ
roger

 

[Snoozy]

Any contradiction is yours, not mine.

i know u are a seasoned veteran in the faith but atleast admit a clear contradiction.

u say God's will is always done. then u say God wishes all to be saved, but not all are because He doesnt grant repentance to all, so His will isnt always done.

be consistent. either say God doesnt want all to be saved like the calvinists do or that all will be saved. cant have both

 

[Grandpa]

[FONT=&quot]Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

If the Atonement is unlimited how were we far off but then the Blood of Christ has drawn us close?

By belief??? By choosing to obey?

Romans 3:10-13
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[FONT=&quot]10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:


[/FONT]
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[/FONT]

 

[notuptome]

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

If the Atonement is unlimited how were we far off but then the Blood of Christ has drawn us close?

By belief??? By choosing to obey?

Romans 3:10-13

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

You are abusing the context of Eph 2.

The blood of Christ has made it possible for all to draw close to God. To enter the holy of holies an area previously into which only high priest could enter one time a year with the blood of the sacrificial lamb.

Is belief a mental assent or is belief a surrender of will a submission, of the will of man to the will of God?

Will God save any against their will? Even the elect will not be saved only because they are deemed to be elect according to Calvinism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Nehemiah6]

If the Atonement is unlimited how were we far off but then the Blood of Christ has drawn us close?

The blood of Christ is applied to the soul that believes wholeheartedly and sincerely on Christ and His finished work of redemption (which includes His shed blood). The one who believes is justified by grace through faith and washed in the blood of the Lamb.

The point to note is that if every human being were to repent and believe sincerely, then the blood would be applied to every human soul. That is the true meaning of unlimited atonement. No human being who obeyed the Gospel would be excluded.

This goes completely against Reformed Theology which claims that God has elected some for salvation and others for damnation (called "everlasting death"). This is patently false.

Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith states in Chapter III, Of God's Eternal Decree: III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death.

 

[UnderGrace]

Will God save any against their will

That is the key question

You are abusing the context of Eph 2.

The blood of Christ has made it possible for all to draw close to God. To enter the holy of holies an area previously into which only high priest could enter one time a year with the blood of the sacrificial lamb.

Is belief a mental assent or is belief a surrender of will a submission, of the will of man to the will of God?

Will God save any against their will? Even the elect will not be saved only because they are deemed to be elect according to Calvinism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Grandpa]

The blood of Christ is applied to the soul that believes wholeheartedly and sincerely on Christ and His finished work of redemption (which includes His shed blood). The one who believes is justified by grace through faith and washed in the blood of the Lamb.

The point to note is that if every human being were to repent and believe sincerely, then the blood would be applied to every human soul. That is the true meaning of unlimited atonement. No human being who obeyed the Gospel would be excluded.

This goes completely against Reformed Theology which claims that God has elected some for salvation and others for damnation (called "everlasting death"). This is patently false.

You just said the exact same thing in two different ways and then claimed one of them was false.

If the Atonement is for all how come its not applied to all?

If its not applied to everyone then it is LIMITED to those who it is applied to.

 

[UnderGrace]

Please clarify, limited atonement is the idea that Christ only died for the sins of the elect?

The application of the atonement is separate idea, correct?

You just said the exact same thing in two different ways and then claimed one of them was false.

If the Atonement is for all how come its not applied to all?

If its not applied to everyone then it is LIMITED to those who it is applied to.

 

[Mercy4u]

You just said the exact same thing in two different ways and then claimed one of them was false.

If the Atonement is for all how come its not applied to all?

If its not applied to everyone then it is LIMITED to those who it is applied to.

The Father is propitiated(satisfied) by The Lord Jesus Christs sacrifice. He paid the price for ALL sin. Even unbelievers. Sin is finished.

The atonement Is God reconciling the WORLD to himself. Sin is finished, so any and every man who has ever lived can come to Him and be saved.

Anyone who does not believe in this once and for all sacrifice, will be judged upon their deeds/own works/human good/evil. Even notice, that they are not judged by their sin of unbelief(Christ paid for all sin.) they are judged according to their WORKS/own righteousness.

John 19:30

New American Standard Bible
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Sin is finished. But not self righteous 'good' works. Which are evil in Gods eyes.

Rev 20:13

New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

 

[Grandpa]

The Father is propitiated(satisfied) by The Lord Jesus Christs sacrifice. He paid the price for ALL sin. Even unbelievers. Sin is finished.

The atonement Is God reconciling the WORLD to himself. Sin is finished, so any and every man who has ever lived can come to Him and be saved.

Anyone who does not believe in this once and for all sacrifice, will be judged upon their deeds/own works/human good/evil. Even notice, that they are not judged by their sin of unbelief(Christ paid for all sin.) they are judged according to their WORKS/own righteousness.

John 19:30

New American Standard Bible
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Sin is finished. But not self righteous 'good' works. Which are evil in Gods eyes.

Rev 20:13

New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

That doesn't make any sense.

If someone is atoned for they are Righteous. They are right with God.

 

[Mercy4u]

That doesn't make any sense.

If someone is atoned for they are Righteous. They are right with God.

If some one is justified and they are in Christ and have the very righteousness of Christ. They are righteous.

Sin is atoned for. All sin.

We can go back to the garden for this.

Adam and Eve COVERED THEMSELVES. The Lord Jesus Christ killed an animal and made His covering for their sin of eating the fruit. The sin is paid for. But if they chose to reject his covering, they would be judged by their own self righteous covering. Not their sin of eating the fruit.

 

[UnderGrace]

Amen Mercy4U ... Amen!!!

If some one is justified and they are in Christ and have the very righteousness of Christ. They are righteous.

Sin is atoned for. All sin.

We can go back to the garden for this.

Adam and Eve COVERED THEMSELVES. The Lord Jesus Christ killed an animal and made His covering for their sin of eating the fruit. The sin is paid for. But if they chose to reject his covering, they would be judged by their own self righteous covering. Not their sin of eating the fruit.

 

[Nehemiah6]

If someone is atoned for they are Righteous. They are right with God.

That is incorrect. The atonement was for the payment of the penalty for sins, and the shed blood of Christ, as well as His sufferings and death, paid that penalty in full. But that did not make humanity automatically righteous, otherwise there would have been no need for the Gospel. It is only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who are justified (declared righteous) by grace through faith, and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them. It is at this point that the atonement is applied to their souls.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness....

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness...

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace...

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Notice "IF we believe on Him..." But if we do not believe, then we are not justified, and the atonement provides no benefit to us.

 

[Grandpa]

If some one is justified and they are in Christ and have the very righteousness of Christ. They are righteous.

Sin is atoned for. All sin.

We can go back to the garden for this.

Adam and Eve COVERED THEMSELVES. The Lord Jesus Christ killed an animal and made His covering for their sin of eating the fruit. The sin is paid for. But if they chose to reject his covering, they would be judged by their own self righteous covering. Not their sin of eating the fruit.

Someone is justified and in Christ because they have been atoned for.

If all sin is atoned for then there is nothing to punish and everyone goes to heaven.

That is universalism.

Revelation 12:10-11
[FONT=&quot]10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.[/FONT]

 

[Limey410v2]

The Father is propitiated(satisfied) by The Lord Jesus Christs sacrifice. He paid the price for ALL sin. Even unbelievers. Sin is finished.

The atonement Is God reconciling the WORLD to himself. Sin is finished, so any and every man who has ever lived can come to Him and be saved.

Anyone who does not believe in this once and for all sacrifice, will be judged upon their deeds/own works/human good/evil. Even notice, that they are not judged by their sin of unbelief(Christ paid for all sin.) they are judged according to their WORKS/own righteousness.

John 19:30

New American Standard Bible
Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.

Sin is finished. But not self righteous 'good' works. Which are evil in Gods eyes.

Rev 20:13

New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Yes the sin issue between God and man has been resolved (propitiation).

Now God wants to see us in relationship with Him through resurrection. We accept that we are depraved and sinful, without the spirit of life lost in Adam, in need of a Savior, accept and believe what His sacrifice accomplished and receive the gift of Him through the Holy Spirit that resurrects us.

 

[Grandpa]

That is incorrect. The atonement was for the payment of the penalty for sins, and the shed blood of Christ, as well as His sufferings and death, paid that penalty in full. But that did not make humanity automatically righteous, otherwise there would have been no need for the Gospel. It is only those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ who are justified (declared righteous) by grace through faith, and the righteousness of Christ is imputed to them. It is at this point that the atonement is applied to their souls.

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness....

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness...

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace...

Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him, But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead

Notice "IF we believe on Him..." But if we do not believe, then we are not justified, and the atonement provides no benefit to us.

Because it is LIMITED to those who believe.

The only thing that makes men un-righteous is sin.

If sin is atoned for then they are righteous.

Romans 14:23 [FONT=&quot]And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: [/FONT][FONT=&quot]for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.[/FONT]

 

[Mercy4u]

If all sin is atoned for then there is nothing to punish and everyone goes to heaven.

Hi Grandpa.

I will try to be clearer.

Evil has not been paid for and is punishable to the lake of fire. Having our sins paid for does not save us.

We still have the issue of our OWN COVERING. If we rely on our own covering to get us to the eternal state, and never believe in His once for ALL sacrifice for our sin. We will be judged according to own covering/self righteousness/human good/evil.

We don't get universalism out of this. We get only a few will find the narrow path(faith alone in Christ alone.) Because the majority reject his sacrifice for them and rely on their own good. Of which they will be judged, because He paid for their sins.

 

[UnderGrace]

Each person has to believe, you keep going past that key point, it is not universalism

The judge can declare that your debt has been paid, but if one does not believe it and accept it to be true then they remain in unbelief that the debt has been paid

Someone is justified and in Christ because they have been atoned for.

If all sin is atoned for then there is nothing to punish and everyone goes to heaven.

That is universalism.

Revelation 12:10-11
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Because it is LIMITED to those who believe.

You seem to be confusing the matter. God does NOT say this, since the Lamb of God took away the SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29). Can you take a moment to let that sink in? The sin of the world, the sins of the world, the iniquity of us all, hence Christ as a RANSOM FOR ALL.

The only thing that makes men un-righteous is sin. If sin is atoned for then they are righteous.

Now you are inventing doctrine, since you will NOT find this in the Bible. All men have inherited a sin nature from Adam, therefore all human beings are unrighteous from birth. Furthermore, when we make efforts to be righteous to earn favor with God, God says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Now the PENALTY for our sins was paid for on the Cross. But if people mock, despise, ignore, or reject what Christ accomplished, that unbelief is sufficient to damn their soul. Which means that the atonement is not effective for them. BUT DOES THAT NULLIFY WHAT CHRIST ACCOMPLISHED?