The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Limey410v2]

You seem to be confusing the matter. God does NOT say this, since the Lamb of God took away the SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29). Can you take a moment to let that sink in? The sin of the world, the sins of the world, the iniquity of us all, hence Christ as a RANSOM FOR ALL.

Now you are inventing doctrine, since you will NOT find this in the Bible. All men have inherited a sin nature from Adam, therefore all human beings are unrighteous from birth. Furthermore, when we make efforts to be righteous to ear favor with God, God says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Now the PENALTY for our sins was paid for on the Cross. But if people mock, despise, ignore, or reject what Christ accomplished, that unbelief is sufficient to damn their soul. Which means that the atonement is not effective for them. BUT DOES THAT NULLIFY WHAT CHRIST ACCOMPLISHED?

Yes, we had no choice in what Christ accomplished, He didn't ask for our permission.

We have the right to chose whether we believe that He accomplished it, and then receive the free gift of salvation.

Forgiveness of sin and salvation are two separate things. Forgiveness of sin allows us to be saved.

 

[Mercy4u]

Each person has to believe, you keep going past that key point, it is not universalism

The judge can declare that your debt has been paid, but if one does not believe it and accept it to be true then they remain in unbelief that the debt has been paid

John 12:32
New American Standard Bible
"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

New American Standard Bible
Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to Me and drink.

 

[Grandpa]

Each person has to believe, you keep going past that key point, it is not universalism

The judge can declare that your debt has been paid, but if one does not believe it and accept it to be true then they remain in unbelief that the debt has been paid

That's why it is LIMITED.

There should be no argument.

But everyone who is trying to show that it is not limited is trying to twist things to mean that the Atonement was for everyone but it didn't work.

God tried but now He needs our help.

 

[Grandpa]

Yes, we had no choice in what Christ accomplished, He didn't ask for our permission.

We have the right to chose whether we believe that He accomplished it, and then receive the free gift of salvation.

Forgiveness of sin and salvation are two separate things. Forgiveness of sin allows us to be saved.

What are we saved from?

 

[Grandpa]

You seem to be confusing the matter. God does NOT say this, since the Lamb of God took away the SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29). Can you take a moment to let that sink in? The sin of the world, the sins of the world, the iniquity of us all, hence Christ as a RANSOM FOR ALL.

Now you are inventing doctrine, since you will NOT find this in the Bible. All men have inherited a sin nature from Adam, therefore all human beings are unrighteous from birth. Furthermore, when we make efforts to be righteous to earn favor with God, God says all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

Now the PENALTY for our sins was paid for on the Cross. But if people mock, despise, ignore, or reject what Christ accomplished, that unbelief is sufficient to damn their soul. Which means that the atonement is not effective for them. BUT DOES THAT NULLIFY WHAT CHRIST ACCOMPLISHED?

Inventing doctrine?

If we are not falling short of pleasing God then we are pleasing God. We are right with Him. We are Righteous.

 

[Grandpa]

Hi Grandpa.

I will try to be clearer.

Evil has not been paid for and is punishable to the lake of fire. Having our sins paid for does not save us.

We still have the issue of our OWN COVERING. If we rely on our own covering to get us to the eternal state, and never believe in His once for ALL sacrifice for our sin. We will be judged according to own covering/self righteousness/human good/evil.

We don't get universalism out of this. We get only a few will find the narrow path(faith alone in Christ alone.) Because the majority reject his sacrifice for them and rely on their own good. Of which they will be judged, because He paid for their sins.

If we rely on our own "covering" we have sinned. We didn't have faith in His "covering".

But if all sin of all people has been atoned for then that wouldn't matter.

 

[UnderGrace]

You may have missed my question but it was my understanding that limited atonement means that Christ only paid for the sins of the elect?

There are some people walking around who sins have not been paid for by the cross, is that what you believe?

That's why it is LIMITED.

There should be no argument.

But everyone who is trying to show that it is not limited is trying to twist things to mean that the Atonement was for everyone but it didn't work.

God tried but now He needs our help.

 

[UnderGrace]

Confused

That's why it is LIMITED.

There should be no argument.

But everyone who is trying to show that it is not limited is trying to twist things to mean that the Atonement was for everyone but it didn't work.

God tried but now He needs our help.

 

[Bookends]

Well, seeing that there are NONE who seek God, you've presented yourself with quite the conundrum.

Look at it like this. In your schema, the Christ died for all men equally. You present the gospel to 'Joe' and 'Jeff' and 'Jeff' is saved, and 'Joe' rejects all the way until his death. Now, seeing that the Christ died for both equally, its not His cross and resurrection that procured 'Jeff's' salvation, but 'Jeff' doing his part. 'Joe' could have been saved if he had only done his part, but by golly he wouldn't.

You have ripped salvation out of God's hand and placed it in man's. Kudos!

Even Calvinist teach one must repent and believe. Can one not repent, not believe and not have faith and still be of the elect?

 

[Nehemiah6]

God tried but now He needs our help.

That is what people say when they cannot really fathom what Christ accomplished, and what Christ demands from sinners.

1. Does the Bible say that God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth? Absolutely

2. Does the Bible say that God would automatically save all humanity? Absolutely not.

So while God has made it possible for all men to be saved through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, He will not save them automatically. Each soul must come to Him in faith, believing God, believing on Christ, and believing that His finished work of redemption is sufficient for our salvation. SO IF ALL WOULD COME, ALL WOULD BE SAVED.

So obviously God does not need our "help". But He does need our genuine response to the Gospel. If you have a problem with that, then you cannot say that you really believe the Bible.

 

[Grandpa]

You may have missed my question but it was my understanding that limited atonement means that Christ only paid for the sins of the elect?

There are some people walking around who sins have not been paid for by the cross, is that what you believe?

Yes. All of those who don't believe in Christ.

John 3:18-19
[FONT=&quot]18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.[/FONT]

 

[Grandpa]

That is what people say when they cannot really fathom what Christ accomplished, and what Christ demands from sinners.

1. Does the Bible say that God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth? Absolutely

2. Does the Bible say that God would automatically save all humanity? Absolutely not.

So while God has made it possible for all men to be saved through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, He will not save them automatically. Each soul must come to Him in faith, believing God, believing on Christ, and believing that His finsihed work of redemption is sufficient for our salvation. SO IF ALL WOULD COME, ALL WOULD BE SAVED.
.

Therefore LIMITING the Atonement to those who believe.

 

[Grandpa]

Confused

See post 545...

 

[UnderGrace]

That is not a verse that is speaking about the work of the cross in that Jesus took on the sins of the world, it is addressing why some do not believe.

Yes. All of those who don't believe in Christ.

John 3:18-19
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[Grandpa]

That is not a verse that is speaking about the work of the cross in that Jesus took on the sins of the world, it is addressing why some do not believe.

Whatever is not of faith is sin.

Why are you trying to confuse this?

If everyones sins are paid for then everyone is Righteous before God. There is nothing causing them to not be righteous.

If there is then its a sin...

 

[Mercy4u]

If we rely on our own "covering" we have sinned. We didn't have faith in His "covering".

But if all sin of all people has been atoned for then that wouldn't matter.

Yes, we have sinned if we rely on our own righteousness. But notice, we are not judged by our sin of relying on our own righteousness.

We are judged BY our own righteousness.

..." Judged According to their DEEDS." Not sins, but deeds. Our own righteousness/evil.

Even as believers, we are rewarded according to our deeds/works. And our self righteous deeds are considered to be wood,hay and stubble or ASHES. But we will be saved, because we had faith in Christ alone for our salvation.

 

[UnderGrace]

May I suggest post 540

This is the verse you need to refute

John 1:29

No, the payment for sin does not cause all to be righteous, the payment is what needed to be done by Jesus, so that righteousness could be imputed, this can only occur when one personally believes

The entire gospel is without meaning without the act of personal belief in the work of the cross. There would be no call to repentance

Whatever is not of faith is sin.

Why are you trying to confuse this?

If everyones sins are paid for then everyone is Righteous before God. There is nothing causing them to not be righteous.

If there is then its a sin...

 

[Magenta]

If we rely on our own "covering" we have sinned. We didn't have faith in His "covering".

But if all sin of all people has been atoned for then that wouldn't matter.

You must be born again, a Spiritual rebirth into the body of Christ, for He holds the keys to life and death, and the flesh counts for nothing. The person not covered by the shed blood of Christ shall pass into the second death, for their name is blotted out of the Lamb's book of life, and they shall be forgotten. This seems a simple thing to grasp: salvation is contingent upon repentance and belief. You affirm it but then say it doesn't matter, which makes no sense. We are saved from the consequence of sin, which is death, the second death, for all die the first. I think you already know these things As one of the elders in my church says, it is both, and.

A side note: when I spoke to atheists, every once in a while they would bring up the idea of how unfair they thought it was that they could not "go to heaven," which seemed quite contradictory to me, since they purported to not believe in such things, but really, if they refuse to acknowledge the One Who has given them life in the first place, why should He give them more? It is quite simple really, but foolishness to those who are perishing in their sins.

 

[Mercy4u]

Yes, we had no choice in what Christ accomplished, He didn't ask for our permission.

We have the right to chose whether we believe that He accomplished it, and then receive the free gift of salvation.

Forgiveness of sin and salvation are two separate things. Forgiveness of sin allows us to be saved.

Well said.

 

[Mercy4u]

That is what people say when they cannot really fathom what Christ accomplished, and what Christ demands from sinners.

1. Does the Bible say that God will have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth? Absolutely

2. Does the Bible say that God would automatically save all humanity? Absolutely not.

So while God has made it possible for all men to be saved through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, He will not save them automatically. Each soul must come to Him in faith, believing God, believing on Christ, and believing that His finished work of redemption is sufficient for our salvation. SO IF ALL WOULD COME, ALL WOULD BE SAVED.

So obviously God does not need our "help". But He does need our genuine response to the Gospel. If you have a problem with that, then you cannot say that you really believe the Bible.

Hello Nem6.

Do you believe Christ paid for ALL sin?