The Gross Error of Limited Atonement

[Snoozy]

In addition to the rest who are saved and elect.

have u heard of the elect in Christ theory? some say that in ephesians where it reads that we were predestined in Christ it means the body of Christ was predestined and when people enter into that, they are then elect.

kinda like old testament u had ruth enter into israel as a gentile. israel was called God's elect.

i think that makes sense.

but i must also be honest with u guys here and say when i first read ephesians i didnt read it that way. i read it to say that we were predestined to be saved. in fairness to u guys is how i read it

 

[SovereignGrace]

yes i agree there are elect.
but that scripture in timothy says "they may also".

As Brother P4T already stated, this is referring to other believers.

 

[SovereignGrace]

have u heard of the elect in Christ theory? some say that in ephesians where it reads that we were predestined in Christ it means the body of Christ was predestined and when people enter into that, they are then elect.

kinda like old testament u had ruth enter into israel as a gentile. israel was called God's elect.

i think that makes sense.

but i must also be honest with u guys here and say when i first read ephesians i didnt read it that way. i read it to say that we were predestined to be saved. in fairness to u guys is how i read it

Israel was chosen by God to be a beacon to His word. They were the first entrusted with His word.[Romans 2] They were chosen to bring the Messiah into the world. But not every Jew is a chosen Jew. Not all of Israel are Israel.[Romans 11]

 

[preacher4truth]

have u heard of the elect in Christ theory? some say that in ephesians where it reads that we were predestined in Christ it means the body of Christ was predestined and when people enter into that, they are then elect.

kinda like old testament u had ruth enter into israel as a gentile. israel was called God's elect.

i think that makes sense.

but i must also be honest with u guys here and say when i first read ephesians i didnt read it that way. i read it to say that we were predestined to be saved. in fairness to u guys is how i read it

Ruth was elect. She didn't elect herself, it was all by providence of God, just as those elect sojourners in Israel.

 

[SovereignGrace]

have u heard of the elect in Christ theory? some say that in ephesians where it reads that we were predestined in Christ it means the body of Christ was predestined and when people enter into that, they are then elect.

kinda like old testament u had ruth enter into israel as a gentile. israel was called God's elect.

i think that makes sense.

but i must also be honest with u guys here and say when i first read ephesians i didnt read it that way. i read it to say that we were predestined to be saved. in fairness to u guys is how i read it

Brother, election is not a theory, but a biblical truth. In the OT, there were mainly Jews with a smattering of Gentiles sprinkled in. Now that has flipped, as it mainly Gentiles with the Jews slowly being grafted in.

If you do an intense study of Romans, a lot of your questions will be answered.

 

[Snoozy]

i hate going back to the greek i think its a sign of deception but if anyone has those greek systems can they show me what elect means in the greek?

is it like a presidential election where people cast a vote
or is it like me electing people to a basketball game
or is it like me electing a car for a certain use. in this last example notice there is no one to talk back.

 

[preacher4truth]

Well, I must depart for a while and try to get some more reading of the completely unnecessary to be written, long drawn out treatment of the nature and attributes of God in the work by Stephen Charnock entitled "The Existence and Attributes of God" which I have neglected for other readings.

How dare anyone write such a long drawn out book! "If it is long, it must be wrong!"

 

[preacher4truth]

i hate going back to the greek i think its a sign of deception but if anyone has those greek systems can they show me what elect means in the greek?

is it like a presidential election where people cast a vote
or is it like me electing people to a basketball game
or is it like me electing a car for a certain use. in this last example notice there is no one to talk back.

It means chosen. Election is milk, not meat.

For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. And because of him you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

 

[Snoozy]

Well, I must depart for a while and try to get some more reading of the completely unnecessary to be written, long drawn out treatment of the nature and attributes of God in the work by Stephen Charnock entitled "The Existence and Attributes of God" which I have neglected for other readings.

How dare anyone write such a long drawn out book! "If it is long, it must be wrong!"

yes most likely. usually books written by man are just commentary on the bible they add in their own beliefs and try to make the bible fit it.
sometimes they add a little philosophy.

i hate reading its very boring id rather go to the gym or do something outside. the only book i read is the bible. i read it every day

 

[garee]

In Romans 5, Apostle Paul compares/contrasts men in the flesh(the lost) with men in the Spirit(the saved). The lost person is in the flesh and can not please God, and is, in fact, not subject to His laws, and indeed can not be subject unto them.

Where the disagreement(s) start and end is how do they get from not being able to please Him to how they can. We say it starts and stops with God, the other side says man.

You decide.

I would think if a person is born dead in their trespass and sin without a living hope and without God in them (Emmanuel) As in no qualifier by which they could believe exercise faith.Like Lazarus dead four days no means to hear or breath or believe ..

Someone had to give ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the church. The other alternative would be the imagination of one’s heart. Can’t build a law of faith based on imaginations.

Isa 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

The first love was not hearing Nicole the leader of the Nicolaitanes. John 6 informs us it is the work of God working in us that we can believe Him


Nicole was not the first love as the first work of God working in them to both will and do his good pleasure .Some started walking after the flesh, their first new self love. .

Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent Rev 2:4

If we began by the hearing of His faith that works in those who believe Him. They will finish . Christians can be foolish as if there was no God in their heart.

If they do have the Spirt of Christ it will turn them so they can repent and comfort themselves in regards to His mercy. If there is no Spirit they will be nothing to turn to

O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:1

 

[Rokurac]

on biblehub a commentary on ezekiel 18:23 by john gill he says:

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God,.... Perish by sword, famine, or pestilence, or go into captivity; this, though the Lord's will and work, yet is his strange work; mercy is his delight. This is to be understood not absolutely; for the Lord does take pleasure in these things, as they fulfil his word, secure the honour of his truth and holiness, and glorify his justice, and especially when they are the means of reclaiming men from the evil of their ways; but comparatively, as follows:and not that he should return from his ways, and live? that is, it is more pleasing to God that a man should repent of his sins, and forsake his vicious course of life, and enjoy good things, than to go on in his sins, and bring ruin on himself, here and hereafter."

isnt this completely contrary to what God says in ezekiel when gill says that he does take pleasure in it?
could someone explain this contradiction. if its more pleaasing to God that a man shuld repent of his sins, why dont he give them repentance?

i tried to look for answer from john gill i think hes a calvinist but im not that good with computers

With your thought process God is contrary to God.

In Ezekiel 18:23 God says He does not have pleasure that the wicked should die.

But what about these verses:

Deuteronomy 28:63 Just as it pleased the LORD to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.

Psalm 135:6-11 The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths. He makes clouds rise from the ends of the earth; he sends lightning with the rain and brings out the wind from his storehouses. He struck down the firstborn of Egypt, the firstborn of men and animals. He sent his signs and wonders into your midst, O Egypt, against Pharaoh and all his servants. He struck down many nations and killed mighty kings Sihon king of the Amorites, Og king of Bashan and all the kings of Canaan.


Proverbs 1:24-26 But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand, since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke, I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you.


Ezekiel 5:30 Then my anger will cease and my wrath against them will subside, and I will be avenged. And when I have spent my wrath upon them, they will know that I the LORD have spoken in my zeal.


Revelation 18:20 Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.

In these verses God does take pleasure in the daeth of the wicked. What gives? It cant be freewill actions of humans, because in Ezekiel 18:23 it says that the wicked should turn from their ways and God isnt happy with them dying in unbelief and wickedness.

Could it be that God is a little bit more complicated than us and His ways are not our ways?
R.C. Sproul said it well: In the book of Romans God is pulling back the curtain so to speak and through the Apostle Paul lets us know whats going on in the background.

You must understand that predestination does not prevent spreading the Gospel, it doesnt prevent calling people to repentance. In fact Acts 17:30 God commands all men everywhere to repent.
From our perspective thats what we must do, WE MUST REPENT! We must believe! We must obey! But from God's perspective it is not so, God isnt just sitting up in heaven holding His breath and hoping a sinner turns from His ways and saying "Oh boy I hope he turns his life around, I've done all I can do, hope he makes the right decision".

 

[Rokurac]

The way we experience God and His salvation is very real. Its not as we are robots. In fact I would argue BEFORE we are regenerated we are closer to robots than after.
Before we are regenerated we have a stony heart, but after God's grace we have a fleshy heart.

You dont have to be reformed to be saved. You can believe in freewill and be saved. Atleast thats how I believe, I cant find it anywhere in the Scriptures that you must hold to this and that position or you're not saved. What I do find is that repentance and faith is required for salvation.
Then whats the point of arguing these things? Who cares what you believe if its not a salvation issue? My reason for being so passionate about this topic is God's glory. And I feel when man puts all the focus on himself he is effectively trying to "minimize" God's glory.
To some this might be nitpicking, but I think theres a big difference in saying: "God saved me" and "I made a decision to accept Jesus today"

But in all honesty, New Testament or Old Testament you just cant escape the passages that deal with predestination. Its right there from the very beginning.
As James White said: The only consistent arminian is an open-theist.

 

[Rokurac]

Sorry for flooding the forum but the edit time had expired and I just want to say one more thing:

When we read the Bible, we tend to focus on one passage and make it the "verse of the day". We tend to forget what we read previously. This causes us to not consider the totality of Scripture, which is dangerous and can lead to false teachings and cults.

A prime example of this is in my previous message a couple posts up. Where I addressed Ezekiel 18:23. Many arminians quote this passage as the end all, be all, for how God deals with the death of the wicked. Yet this is not in accordance to TOTA SCRIPTURA, all of Scripture, as I clearly demonstrated.
So the error is in oversimplification and latching on to "proof texts" rather than reading the entire thing and considering, harmonizing in prayer and dilligent study the entire Bible.

I know that we live in the information post-modern era where we have technology to look up verses extremely fast, this is a great benefit, but it has also given the enemies of the faith a way to attack us and confuse us more than ever before. We need to be vigilant and study harder for this reason. I know that studying is not the cool or fun thing to do, nor does it come off as spiritual in today's relative personal revelation dominated culture, but we are told to study the Scriptures as per 2 Timothy 2:15.

EDIT: Going too long again! Perhaps I need to start a blog?

 

[garee]

Originally Posted by Snoozy

on biblehub a commentary on ezekiel 18:23 by john gill he says:

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord God,.... Perish by sword, famine, or pestilence, or go into captivity; this, though the Lord's will and work, yet is his strange work; mercy is his delight. This is to be understood not absolutely; for the Lord does take pleasure in these things, as they fulfil his word, secure the honour of his truth and holiness, and glorify his justice, and especially when they are the means of reclaiming men from the evil of their ways; but comparatively, as follows:and not that he should return from his ways, and live? that is, it is more pleasing to God that a man should repent of his sins, and forsake his vicious course of life, and enjoy good things, than to go on in his sins, and bring ruin on himself, here and hereafter."

isnt this completely contrary to what God says in ezekiel when gill says that he does take pleasure in it?
could someone explain this contradiction. if its more pleaasing to God that a man shuld repent of his sins, why dont he give them repentance?

i tried to look for answer from john gill i think hes a calvinist but im not that good with computers

Calvin is dead. We are informed Christ is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul pleases. For he performs that which he appoints to us, working in us to both will and do His good pleasure . ( Imputed righteousness ).

We as he works with us work it out, not work for to gain salvation. In that way we do all things without murmurings and disputing who gets the credit for creating new creatures.Why would we boast as if we had not freely received it according to the good pleasure of His will?

We can plant the incorruptible seed by which we must be born again and water it with the doctrines of God. He makes our hearts soft and causes the growth if there is any. I think that could be why it’s more pleasing to God that a man should repent of his sins seeing he has mercy on whom he does have mercy by making their hearts soft.

 

[notuptome]

Ruth was elect. She didn't elect herself, it was all by providence of God, just as those elect sojourners in Israel.

Must have been Calvin who elected her. Ruth was a Moabitess not respected at all in Israel. Ruth was used of God despite her lineage and added to the lineage of Christ with Boaz her husband.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Rokurac]

I try not to call myself a calvinist ever. I think its an error in itself. I know that today thats the way people know the doctrine of predestination but it honestly has little to nothing to do with Calvin.

Augustine was teaching the same thing a thousand years earlier. The attitude of "Calvin invented it" is just so common place its sad.

I have never read Calvin's institutes

 

[peacefulbeliever]

IOW, mental assent. Man can reason himself to heaven. God does not have to raise him to life, he can reason himself from death unto life. Who needs to be spiritually resurrected?

Born of God, IOW, God alone. Begotten of Him? God alone does this. It is only after God does this can a man repent and believe.

No one can "reason" himself to heaven. There is only one way into heaven and that is through belief in Jesus Christ.

When one believes in the gospel of salvation one is born again, i.e. born from above, i.e. born of God. Yep, don't disagree with this - God alone does create that new creation in man, i.e. Spirit - this is where we differ - That new birth will NOT take place until one places his belief and trust in Jesus Christ making him Lord of their life, believing in their heart that God raised him from the dead. You are NOT born again FIRST - that is putting the cart before the horse.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory."

Eph 1:14

Yep, that is the process - one is IN Christ after one hears the message of truth, after one believes . . . one receives the promised holy Spirit, i.e. sealed

IN Christ, BY Christ, THROUGH Christ - no one comes to the Father but by me . . .

 

[valiant]

have u heard of the elect in Christ theory? some say that in ephesians where it reads that we were predestined in Christ it means the body of Christ was predestined and when people enter into that, they are then elect.

LOL yes I've heard it from people who didn't know the Scriptures. But its human reasoning

kinda like old testament u had ruth enter into israel as a gentile. israel was called God's elect.

hardly the same thing.

but i must also be honest with u guys here and say when i first read ephesians i didnt read it that way. i read it to say that we were predestined to be saved. in fairness to u guys is how i read it

because that's how it was written.

 

[preacher4truth]

yes most likely. usually books written by man are just commentary on the bible they add in their own beliefs and try to make the bible fit it. sometimes they add a little philosophy.

Well, really, the book is very good. To be honest you cannot just broad brush as you are and be accurate, you have to actually give evidence to your statement for it to be valid. Otherwise it is mere unsubstantiated generalization. Also, you cannot apply it to the book I am reading, and of course, my post of which you are responding was in jest.

i hate reading its very boring id rather go to the gym or do something outside. the only book i read is the bible. i read it every day

I'm glad you read your Bible every day! That said, there are things you cannot know only by reading Scripture. There are other means given by God to further our understanding of Scripture. Since you dislike reading, God has decreed Ephesians 4:11.