Paul exposes false application of the law

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Dai3234

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Sep 6, 2016
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I wonder if Paul could know what we're talking about, would he change/add more to explain? Or just make more confusion??

A bit annoying not having obvious clarity about doctrines, laws and all the hat wearing etc.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
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I wonder if Paul could know what we're talking about, would he change/add more to explain? Or just make more confusion??

A bit annoying not having obvious clarity about doctrines, laws and all the hat wearing etc.
If you read all of Pauls letters he is pretty clear.

He says the same things over and over in different ways so that it really takes some twisting to try and escape the simplicity of the gospel.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I wonder if Paul could know what we're talking about, would he change/add more to explain? Or just make more confusion??

A bit annoying not having obvious clarity about doctrines, laws and all the hat wearing etc.
I do not think Paul’s writings are the problem. The problem is people trying tp use his writing to support their beliefs.
 

Hizikyah

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Aug 25, 2013
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul/Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless, but grow in the favor and knowledge of our Master and Savior [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Awmĕin.”[/FONT]
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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I do not think Paul’s writings are the problem. The problem is people trying tp use his writing to support their beliefs.

Hi EG,

Your post reminds me of what Peter said:

He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

Dai3234

Senior Member
Sep 6, 2016
524
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If you read all of Pauls letters he is pretty clear.

He says the same things over and over in different ways so that it really takes some twisting to try and escape the simplicity of the gospel.
What I meant was, it would be nice if someone just listed, don't WATER baptize anymore. Hats for women are mandatory or long hair past shoulders, that you cannot lose salvation in any way unless you're not saved already.

You, know, that kind of clarity. Not the hair is a shame covered shamed uncovered not shame shame kind of points.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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The wall of separation was the Levitical Priesthood. Gentiles were not allowed in the temple

Gal 5 starts out with “ Be not entangled again”.

How are gentiles entangled again in being burdened by God’s Law if they never had it before?

I will pray for you.
After a brother explained to me some Biblical facts that I did not consider I must correct this statement because it is not the truth.

The Levitical Priesthood was changed as written in Heb. 7, Jesus did not come from the tribe of Levi, He came from Judah of which no mention was made by Moses. So the Levitical Priesthood has not been "Abolished" as I said. Rather, Jesus is still performing the Spiritual intent of the Levitical Priesthood in heaven to this day on our behalf. Also, the LP did not forbid anyone who would turn to God in truth and obedience.

We know Jesus didn't abolish God's Laws because Jesus said they would be here as long as the earth is here. I believe in Jesus so I believe His Words.

Verse 11 in Eph.2 says "11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision (The mainstream church of that time) in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

There was no time the gentiles were without hope because of God's Laws.

It was the Mainstream Church of that time that created laws forbidding Gentiles to come to God, not God.

Ex. 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


Jesus abolished the "Handwritting" of man made laws that were against us created by the mainstream preachers of that time exposing the Mainstream preachers of that time as false teachers. Jesus "established" God's Law over the mainstream teaching of the church of that time.

If anyone was taking notes let it be known that I was in error to say Jesus abolished the Levitical Priesthood. As He said, He came not to destroy the law, but fulfill it. He is the High Priest still performing the Spiritual Priesthood as His Father Commanded.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
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After a brother explained to me some Biblical facts that I did not consider I must correct this statement because it is not the truth.

The Levitical Priesthood was changed as written in Heb. 7, Jesus did not come from the tribe of Levi, He came from Judah of which no mention was made by Moses. So the Levitical Priesthood has not been "Abolished" as I said. Rather, Jesus is still performing the Spiritual intent of the Levitical Priesthood in heaven to this day on our behalf. Also, the LP did not forbid anyone who would turn to God in truth and obedience.

We know Jesus didn't abolish God's Laws because Jesus said they would be here as long as the earth is here. I believe in Jesus so I believe His Words.

Verse 11 in Eph.2 says "11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision (The mainstream church of that time) in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

There was no time the gentiles were without hope because of God's Laws.

It was the Mainstream Church of that time that created laws forbidding Gentiles to come to God, not God.

Ex. 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


Jesus abolished the "Handwritting" of man made laws that were against us created by the mainstream preachers of that time exposing the Mainstream preachers of that time as false teachers. Jesus "established" God's Law over the mainstream teaching of the church of that time.

If anyone was taking notes let it be known that I was in error to say Jesus abolished the Levitical Priesthood. As He said, He came not to destroy the law, but fulfill it. He is the High Priest still performing the Spiritual Priesthood as His Father Commanded.
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 7:23-28, “And indeed, those that became priests were many, because they were prevented by death from continuing, but He, because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to Yah through Him, ever living to make intercession for them. For it was fitting that we should have such a High Priest – kind, innocent, undefiled, having been separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens, who does not need, as those high priests, to offer up slaughter offerings day by day, first for His own sins and then for those of the people, for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Torah appoints as high priests men who have weakness, but the word of the oath which came after the Torah, appoints the Son having been perfected forever.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isayah 59:15-21, "Yes, truth is suppressed; and he who departs from evil is accounted as mad. YHWH saw this, and it displeased Him that there was no justice. But He saw no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor. Therefore His own arm brought salvation for Him, and His own righteousness, it sustained Him. For He put on righteousness as a breastplate, with a helmet of salvation on His head; He put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and He wrapped Himself with zeal like a tallit. According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay--fury to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; to the islands; nations, He will repay recompense. So they will reverence the Name of YHWH from the west and His glory from the rising of the sun; when our enemies will come in like a flood, the Spirit of YHWH will lift up a standard against them; The Redeemer will depart from Zion for those of Yaaqob who repent of their sins! declares YHWH. As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says YHWH: My Spirit which is upon you, namely My Words which I have put in your mouth; they will not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your seed, nor from the mouth of your seed's seed, says YHWH: from this time and forevermore."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isayah 54:8-17, "With a little wrath, I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you: says YHWH your Redeemer. For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have vowed that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I vowed that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. For the mountains will depart and the hills be removed; but My kindness will not depart from you, nor will My covenant of peace be removed, says YHWH, Who has mercy on you. O you afflicted, tossed with tempest and not comforted. Behold, I will lay your stones with turquoise, and lay your foundations with sapphires. I will make your windows of rubies, and your gates of crystal, and all your walls of precious stones. All your children will be taught by YHWH; and great will be the peace of your children. In righteousness you will be established. You will be far from oppression, for you will not fear from terror; for it will not come near you. Behold, they will surely assemble, but it is not from Me. Whoever assembles against you will fall for your sake. Behold, I have created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame, and forges an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster; devastator, to destroy. No weapon that is formed against you will succeed; and every tongue that will rise against you in judgment, you will condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of YHWH, and their righteousness is from Me, says YHWH."[/FONT]
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Back to the OP.

1 Timothy 1: [FONT=&quot]But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

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[FONT=&quot]Can someone explain to me how a child of God fits into the defenition given here of who the law is for? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
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Back to the OP.

1 Timothy 1: But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Can someone explain to me how a child of God fits into the defenition given here of who the law is for?
1 Tim. 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;


11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

What is the Gospel where Paul gets his "sound doctrine from? Let's let him declare.

Acts. 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:


23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

So "
according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust." is the Old Testament writings.

"
and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;, According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust."

We must then, as Jesus instructed in Matt. 23, go to the Old Testament Paul calls the Gospel of Christ (Rom. 1) to find what sound doctrines is.

From there we find the First and Greatest Commandment..

Ex. 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

So I don't even have to go any further than the First and Greatest commandment to find a religion that doesn't use God's Laws lawfully.

There is a Great Religion followed by "MANY, MANY" people who has created an image of God in the likeness of man.(And many other such things they do) This is against sound doctrine as Paul describes over and over but specifically in 1 Tim. 1.

This "Work of iniquity" is exposed by the Law if one uses it Lawfully.

God's Commandments were made for those who would commit such wickedness. Once the Law if used Lawfully (to expose our sin) we are then prompted to repent and do works worthy of repentance. (Go and create images of God no more) And we are forgiven by the grace of God IF we repent.


But Jesus said men love sin more than Him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him(The Word) is not condemned: but he that believeth not(The Word) is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


19 And this is the condemnation, that light(God's Word) is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light,(The Word) neither cometh to the light,(Word) lest his deeds should be reproved.


21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light,(The Word) that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God., Not man's traditions.

Jesus is the Word.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

You questioned how the Children of God fit's unto the scripture you posted. I didn't use my own words, but the Word of God to answer your question.

The Children of God COME TO GOD's Word so that their "Works" might be made manifest whether they are from God or man.

1 John 2:3 says the exact same thing.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. If we come to the Light that our deeds may be exposed to see if they are wrought of God or man.

When we come to the Light and the Light exposes a sin, we repent and bring forth "Works" worthy of repentance. These would be Lawful deeds which come from God, not lawless deeds which stem from man.

2 Tim 3:16 teaches the same thing.

15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.(The Word, The Light)

What scriptures were available to these people at this time? The exact same scriptures Paul called the Gospel of Christ, the Old Testament. The Word that became Jesus.


16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

As Paul declared in Romans 1:17 For therein(Gospel of Christ) is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

As Jesus said: "Be ye perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect".

2 Tim. 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

There is it again, the Word.

So a Child of God will "study" as instructed, go to the Light (God's Word/Law) and let this Light expose his deeds.

If he finds from this process that he is transgressing God's Commandments by a tradition he picked up somewhere, like acknowledging a religious image of God made in the likeness of man, following man made "Feasts unto the Lord" he will repent (change) and bring works worthy of repentance. (No more idols of some worldly religious franchise) or man made high Days.

No child of God would knowingly rebel against the first and greatest commandment, and if this sin was exposed by the Light, he would stop this evil "work" immediately, and Jesus promised He is faithful to forgive us.

But if we reject the Light we can do nothing. As Paul taught.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God,(The Word) they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. No Light!

I hope this answers your question.





16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
What I meant was, it would be nice if someone just listed, don't WATER baptize anymore. Hats for women are mandatory or long hair past shoulders, that you cannot lose salvation in any way unless you're not saved already.

You, know, that kind of clarity. Not the hair is a shame covered shamed uncovered not shame shame kind of points.
Jesus did give us a list....

Love God with All your heart body and mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.


Every thing else (hate water baptisms, food, sabbath, etc) are secondary.

It's like when scripture tells us God wants mercy not sacrifice and how a humble and contrite heart are always acceptable to God.

God doeantwnat external obedience to laws but internal change and eternal relationship with His children.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Back to the OP.

1 Timothy 1: [FONT=&quot]But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Can someone explain to me how a child of God fits into the defenition given here of who the law is for? [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
Insubordinate, liar, contrary to sound doctrine.....young immature Christians fit those adjectives..,already did and sometimes still do.

The law is useful to train youth to become mature adults.
.it shows us the need for God's continual forgiveness and grace. It keeps us humble and able to empathise with those who struggle to overcome. It sets boundaries to keep us closer to God and His ways.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
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Jesus did give us a list....

Love God with All your heart body and mind.

Love your neighbor as yourself.


Every thing else (hate water baptisms, food, sabbath, etc) are secondary.

It's like when scripture tells us God wants mercy not sacrifice and how a humble and contrite heart are always acceptable to God.

God doeantwnat external obedience to laws but internal change and eternal relationship with His children.
And not let us forget that Jesus also said "Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you"

Just like we all were before he died for us.
I think for me if we want to measure our faith then it can be measured by whether we love our enemies.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
And not let us forget that Jesus also said "Love your enemies and do good to those who persecute you"

Just like we all were before he died for us.
I think for me if we want to measure our faith then it can be measured by whether we love our enemies.
Jesus came and showed the world the difference between the Abrahamic promised covenant fulfillment at Mount Zion versus the Mosaic covenant at Mount Sinai but people still don't know the difference.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Jesus is our High Priest

Hebrews 7
17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet Abram in the Valley of Shaveh (known as the King’s Valley). 18 Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (Now he was the priest of the Most High God.) 19 He blessed Abram, saying, “Blessed be Abram by the Most High God, Creator of heaven and earth. 20 Worthy of praise is the Most High God, who delivered your enemies into your hand.” Abram gave Melchizedek a tenth of everything.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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Jesus came and showed the world the difference between the Abrahamic promised covenant fulfillment at Mount Zion versus the Mosaic covenant at Mount Sinai but people still don't know the difference.
Haven't seen you for a while. Glad to see you back.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Haven't seen you for a while. Glad to see you back.
Thanks. Life been busy and I have been taking a discipleship class weekly at church. Which fulfills my need to discuss scriptures lol. But we are out this week for 4thanksgiving...so I come back here to see what y'all are talking about,
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thanks Bill and Ariel for helpin g get the threads back on track. Amen, Love and seeking after the spirit is what empowers the children of God to overcome sin, and it is grace given to us by God based on his selfless love that enables us to love other (we love because he first loved us)

The law is not given to the righteous, but the sinner, The righteous are those who have been saved, and start a life of learning to love as God loved And learn to love as Christ gave the example
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Thanks. Life been busy and I have been taking a discipleship class weekly at church. Which fulfills my need to discuss scriptures lol. But we are out this week for 4thanksgiving...so I come back here to see what y'all are talking about,
Yes good to see you back, Hope your classesd are going well
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
1 Timothy 1:5-10, “Now the goal of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief, which some, having missed the goal, turned aside to senseless talk, wishing to be teachers of Torah, understanding neither what they say nor concerning what they strongly affirm. And we know that the Torah is good if one uses it legitimately, knowing this: that Torah is not laid down for a righteous being, but for the lawless and unruly, for the wicked and for sinners, for the wrong-doers and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for those who whore, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and for whatever else that is contrary to sound teaching.”
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[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the end (telos) of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5, “Now the goal (telos) of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Greek Dictionary (Lexicon-Concordance) - #5056 telos {tel'-os} from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)[/FONT]