Paul exposes false application of the law

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A

Ariel82

Guest
Yes the goal (telos) is to love others (agape) as God loves

Which is easier said than done.

Which only can done by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Guess that means it's time to move to the next topic?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes the goal (telos) is to love others (agape) as God loves

Which is easier said than done.

Which only can done by the empowerment of the Holy Spirit.

Guess that means it's time to move to the next topic?
we can only do it is we have experienced Gods love in salvation first.

And it would be nice. But some still think that is while that is the goal. They believe the way we do it is through the law. Not love and seeking after the things of the spirit.

So the topic will probably continue to need to be focused on until the return of Christ when he settles it once and for all. And everyone believes it.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy." [/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Corinthians 2:9, “But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which YHWH has prepared for those who love Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 13:7-8, “Remember those leading you, who spoke the Word of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]to you. Consider the outcome of their behavior and imitate their belief. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah is the same yesterday, and today, and forever.”[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”
[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 2:15, "Who show the work of the Torah (Instructions/Law) written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin)."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."[/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 12:3-17, “For consider Him who endured such opposition from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and faint in your lives."4, You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin."5, And you have forgotten the appeal which speaks to you as to sons, “My son, do not despise the discipline of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif], nor faint when you are reproved by Him,"6, for whom [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]loves, He disciplines, and flogs every son whom He receives.” (Pro 3:11-12) "7, If you endure discipline, Yah is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom a father does not discipline?"8, But if you are without discipline, of which all have become sharers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."9, Moreover, we indeed had fathers of our flesh disciplining us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?"10, For they indeed disciplined us for a few days as seemed best to them, but He does it for our profit, so that we might share His apartness."11, And indeed, no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but grievous, but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."12, So, strengthen the hands which hang down and the weak knees, Isa 35:3."13, and make straight paths for your feet, lest the lame be turned aside, but instead, to be healed."14, Pursue peace with all, and pursue apartness without which no one shall see the Master."15, See to it that no one falls short of the favor of Yah, that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, by which many become defiled,"16, lest there be anyone who whores, or profane one, like Ěsaw, who for a single meal sold his birthright. 17, For you know that afterward, when he wished to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it with tears.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
1 Timothy 1:9-11
[FONT=&quot]9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Galatians 3:10-12
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:23-25
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

2 Corinthians 3:5-9
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Romans 10:3-4
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 9:31-33
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Acts 15:5-10
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?[/FONT]
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
1 Samuel 12:24, “Only fear יהוה, and you shall serve Him in truth with all your heart, for consider what marvels He has done for you.”


1 John 4:19, “We love Him because He first loved us.”


1 John 5:2-3, "By this we know that we love the children of Yah, when we love Yah and guard His commands. For this is the love for Yah, that we guard His commands, and His commands are not heavy."


Exodus 20:6, “But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws.”


1 Corinthians 2:9, “But as it is written: Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the mind of man the things which YHWH has prepared for those who love Him.”


John/Yahanan 14:15, “If you love Me, keep My commandments.”


John 14:23-24, "יהושע answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”


Hebrews 13:7-8, “Remember those leading you, who spoke the Word of יהוה to you. Consider the outcome of their behavior and imitate their belief. יהושע Messiah is the same yesterday, and today, and forever.”

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.”




Romans 2:15, "Who show the work of the Torah (Instructions/Law) written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing (condemming sin) or even excusing (justifying sin)."



Isaiah 51:7, “Listen to Me, you who know righteousness, a people in whose heart is My Torah (Instructions/Law): do not fear the reproach of men, nor be afraid of their reviling.”


John/Yahanan 15:5-16, "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and letting My words; abide in you, you will ask what you will, and it will be done for you. In this is My Father glorified: when you produce much fruit; and in this way you become My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; continue in My love. If you keep My Commands, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's Commands, and abide in His love. These things I have spoken to you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be complete. This is My Command: Love one another as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this: that one would lay down his life on behalf of his brothers. You are My brothers, if you do whatever I command you."



Romans 7:25, “Thanks be to YHWH, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of YHWH, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.”


Hebrews 12:3-17, “For consider Him who endured such opposition from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and faint in your lives."4, You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin."5, And you have forgotten the appeal which speaks to you as to sons, “My son, do not despise the discipline of יהוה, nor faint when you are reproved by Him,"6, for whom יהוה loves, He disciplines, and flogs every son whom He receives.” (Pro 3:11-12) "7, If you endure discipline, Yah is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom a father does not discipline?"8, But if you are without discipline, of which all have become sharers, then you are illegitimate and not sons."9, Moreover, we indeed had fathers of our flesh disciplining us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?"10, For they indeed disciplined us for a few days as seemed best to them, but He does it for our profit, so that we might share His apartness."11, And indeed, no discipline seems pleasant at the time, but grievous, but afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."12, So, strengthen the hands which hang down and the weak knees, Isa 35:3."13, and make straight paths for your feet, lest the lame be turned aside, but instead, to be healed."14, Pursue peace with all, and pursue apartness without which no one shall see the Master."15, See to it that no one falls short of the favor of Yah, that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, by which many become defiled,"16, lest there be anyone who whores, or profane one, like Ěsaw, who for a single meal sold his birthright. 17, For you know that afterward, when he wished to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it with tears.”


As I said, One could say I rest my case. But I will not.

Again, This thread is not about telling people it is ok to live in sin, It is ok to say a sinners prayer and live however Y0ou want, it is not about disobedient children of God who think it is ok to disobey Gods laws.

It is about WHY are Gods children obedient, WHY do they obey Gods laws, WHAT EMPOWERS them to do this., What makes them obedient children of God.

John said a child of God can not sin, because he has been born of God. WHY IS THIS A FACT and not a suggestion.

And again.


1 Timothy 1: But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Can someone explain to me how a child of God fits into the defenition given here of who the law is for?


One can only ask, Why is it people can post a bunch of verses, but can not answer simple questions? WHy is the law not given for the Righteous, but only for the sinner.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
1 Timothy 1:9-11
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

Galatians 3:10-12

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Galatians 3:23-25

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

2 Corinthians 3:5-9

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Romans 10:3-4

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Romans 9:31-33

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Acts 15:5-10
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
One must wonder how new people who see two posts like this (one supporting law, and one which says the law has done its job and has been complete) show the Bible contradicts itself. And ask why is this so.. And then ask if the Bible is even to be trusted.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,188
113
One must wonder how new people who see two posts like this (one supporting law, and one which says the law has done its job and has been complete) show the Bible contradicts itself. And ask why is this so.. And then ask if the Bible is even to be trusted.
Romans 9:31-33

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The way of Righteousness is not through the Law. Right standing with God.

The way of Righteousness is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:21 [FONT=&quot]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

[/FONT]
Hebrews 7:18-19
[FONT=&quot]18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The Better Hope is the Lord Jesus Christ, of course.

Romans 10:2-4
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

See Romans 9:31-33. Those who work at the law do not attain to the Righteousness that the Law commands. Because the only way to "attain" the righteousness that is contained in the law is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Submitted themselves to the Righteousness of God. Coming to Christ by Faith.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Legalists and Judaizers cannot understand any of this. Their minds are blinded when Moses is read. Only those who have come to Christ understand all that is contained in coming to Christ.

It shouldn't be hard to remind people who have come to Christ what True Righteousness is and what True Obedience is.

It only becomes difficult when people are stubborn in their work and never understood nor wanted to understand submitting to the Righteousness of God.

[/FONT]
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Romans 9:31-33

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

The way of Righteousness is not through the Law. Right standing with God.

The way of Righteousness is through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Hebrews 7:18-19
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

The Better Hope is the Lord Jesus Christ, of course.

Romans 10:2-4

2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

See Romans 9:31-33. Those who work at the law do not attain to the Righteousness that the Law commands. Because the only way to "attain" the righteousness that is contained in the law is by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Submitted themselves to the Righteousness of God. Coming to Christ by Faith.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Legalists and Judaizers cannot understand any of this. Their minds are blinded when Moses is read. Only those who have come to Christ understand all that is contained in coming to Christ.

It shouldn't be hard to remind people who have come to Christ what True Righteousness is and what True Obedience is.

It only becomes difficult when people are stubborn in their work and never understood nor wanted to understand submitting to the Righteousness of God.

When christians read the OT (Namely Moses and the law) they should be excited as they see Gods work, and see how perfect Gods plan was in Using this great teaching tool to point to christ. Then they should see the grace of God, as Israel time and time again went contrary to Gods law, yet God was slow to anger, as he tells us to be. Then they should see how Taking the law out of context caused Israel to be arrogant, Haters, Ungodlike, and in the end, caused them to turn against their own messiah.