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Thread: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

  1. #21
    Senior Member Ahwatukee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    The so-called rapture is a false doctrine, which can only be documented by twisting scripture. This is one of Satan's MOs
    The gathering of the church (rapture) is a promise from the Lord in John 14:1-3 with 1 Thes.4:16-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-52 being the detailed event of when the Lord comes for the church. Wrath is coming upon this earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments with the resurrection of those in Christ taking place first and immediately followed by the those who are still alive being changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Since believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer wrath and Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, then believers cannot go through the time of God's wrath, but must be removed prior to its beginning.

    If you don't believe this, then you are not believing in the Lord's promise, nor are you believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

    All of those people that you mentioned above, have been mentioned over and over again and you are just repeating this same apologetic. In order to be swayed by their teaching one would have to a follower of their teachings and adopt them. That said, I have never read anything by them, but my understanding of the gathering of the church comes straight from my own studies of the scriptures, not from the teachings of men.

    Instead of believing in the Lord's promise to keep believers out of that time of wrath, instead you believe and teach that believers will go through the wrath of God, which Jesus already satisfied.
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    The gathering of the church (rapture) is a promise from the Lord in John 14:1-3 with 1 Thes.4:16-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-52 being the detailed event of when the Lord comes for the church. Wrath is coming upon this earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments with the resurrection of those in Christ taking place first and immediately followed by the those who are still alive being changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Since believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer wrath and Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, then believers cannot go through the time of God's wrath, but must be removed prior to its beginning.

    If you don't believe this, then you are not believing in the Lord's promise, nor are you believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

    All of those people that you mentioned above, have been mentioned over and over again and you are just repeating this same apologetic. In order to be swayed by their teaching one would have to a follower of their teachings and adopt them. That said, I have never read anything by them, but my understanding of the gathering of the church comes straight from my own studies of the scriptures, not from the teachings of men.

    Instead of believing in the Lord's promise to keep believers out of that time of wrath, instead you believe and teach that believers will go through the wrath of God, which Jesus already satisfied.
    Don't forget about the thunder judgments (Rev 10:3-4). Granted, since John was not permitted to write about them we do not know anything about them. But they will happen, whatever they are. Probably won't be too pleasant...

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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    REV. 18:24.

    And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    2:10.
    Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison,
    that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death,
    and I will give thee a crown of life.

    7:14.
    And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out
    of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of The Lamb.

    17:6.
    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus:
    and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

    2:10.
    Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison,
    that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death,
    and I will give thee a crown of life.

    11:9.
    And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies
    three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoozy View Post
    u always say u read greek but u cant even understand kjv english? ok then. i wonder why the kjv is constantly attacked.
    all the new versions are fine but use a kjv and u will get scolded.

    i understand the kjv just fine. u can call me dumb all u want.

    what u say about greek.... is not convincing at all. should we trust u, one person on the internet over the group of scholars who translated the kjv that served english speaking people for a long time. there was the great awakening.

    its this chain of thought:
    word of God is all authority. but we constantly change it and greek is really this, but why? because its just a translation. but even the greek is wrong we got different manuscripts. next logical step is that only the original manuscripts that were written were inspired, well those dont exist anymore we dont have them.
    therefore now we have no final authority.

    u know i can prove to u from the scriptures that the copies of copies of copies was considered Godbreathed scriptures.

    i just dont understand the anti kjv mentality why is it so bad some people like to pick a bible and trust what it says??

    Just FYI, I have studied under some of the top Greek scholars in the world, for over 2 years. I have never studied KJ English. Perhaps the thing I know, is how important it is to understand the grammar, the vocabulary, and use tools like lexicons to look up what the Greek words mean, to say nothing of morphologies and grammars. Extensive ones. I can use these tools to examine the Greek, (Or Hebrew, if I ever brushed it up).

    What tools are available for KJ English grammar? How about vocabulary? Archaic words? Obsolete words? Or, worse the words that we have in modern English, like "closet" which meant something totally different 400 years ago??

    And then there are the manuscript issues. The Byzantine texts contain so many additions and outright spurious texts. Why, would I want to read a translation from inferior sources, and those translated by Erasmus, a Roman Catholic priest?

    I pick the Greek and scholarship, as far as what the Bible says. KJV is just responsible for too many heresies, and is too hard to read for me!

    PS. No, you cannot prove the TR copies of copies are inspired. What garbage!
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    Senior Member Angela53510's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino246 View Post
    I suspect he's referring to "harpazo".
    Well, again, context rules. Harpazo, ἁρπαγησόμεθα in 1 Thess. 4:17, is part of a statement, in which we will be "snatched" and meet Jesus in the air. In fact, I don't really think it means go up anywhere, but I am willing to concede some movement might be involved.

    To make a doctrine out of one out-of-context word, which was transliterated into Latin, and then taken from Jerome's poor translation, and then a doctrine made up in the 18th century about this is beyond absurd. And then the OP claiming that if a born again Christian doesn't believe in this doctrine, they will be punished and not get to go "up" in this so-called "rapture" is just ludicrous!
    "And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me." 2 Cor. 12:9 NASB

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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    To make a doctrine out of one out-of-context word, which was transliterated into Latin, and then taken from Jerome's poor translation, and then a doctrine made up in the 18th century about this is beyond absurd.
    That WOULD be absurd, if it were true. Belief in the rapture comes from far more than that.

    And then the OP claiming that if a born again Christian doesn't believe in this doctrine, they will be punished and not get to go "up" in this so-called "rapture" is just ludicrous!
    Yes, that is ludicrous.

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    Senior Member breno785au's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    Luke 14:15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. 16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: 17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. 18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. 19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. 20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. 22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. 23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

    If you don't think you would refuse the Bridegroom when He comes at the pre trib rapture for any of those reasons above, I would advise you to heed His warning because He said it will be a snare for those living at the time that He comes.

    Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

    So some saints will love their lives and their loved ones that they will not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

    So watch and pray always that the Lord will help you be far more willing to leave your life and your loved ones behind.
    I was a blind and maimed gentile down one of those lane ways when His servants found and give me His invitation. Now I'm a son of the Living God.
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by shrume View Post
    Two points:

    I am convinced the rapture is found in the Bible, even "reading the Greek correctly". Time will tell.

    2nd, while I agree there are better translations than the KJV, I don't think it's nearly as bad as you seem to think it is. You can't even read it? C'mon, Angela...
    I can help you find the rapture in the bible but you will have no more interest to talk about it: Revelation 6:11 and 13:15
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    The hearts wants what it wants. If the saints' hearts are on the treasures on earth and their loved ones so that they would not want to follow Him when the Bridegroom comes, then He will know.

    Otherwise, you are left with the question of why Jesus has said what He had said.
    Some men believe that not all will go in the gathering because they need more testing. I've read their opinions on it and they do give scripture, although I can't remember all of them.

    They think these men will be refined more during that time coming on the world to test it.

    They don't look on it as a punishment t from God on them but more as...a blessing to further refine them like gold.

    As far as using bible verses to support their thought, they do a pretty good job.

    Their view also fits with OSAS.some of the verses they use that I remember are: pray that you will be counted worthy to escape that time of testing coming on the world to test all men.

    Wish I had saved the thought along with the verses. It did a good job of explaining some odd and troubling verses.

    Anyway, it is a belief of some men.

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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    All Christians who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit will be caught up on the day of the LORD Jesus Return... But many who thought they where Christians will find out that they where not in fact True Christians and they will be like the ones shown in the parable in the opening post...

    PS:: I disagree with the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine.. I believe the Rapture will happen on the Day of the Return of Jesus.. He is only returning Once.. There is no secret return..
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  11. #31
    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    Why do you keep posting this nonsense? I have no idea what the scriptures you posted are in the OP, because I don't read KJV. And I am not willing to look it up in pretty much any modern version, to see what it means.

    Or Greek and Hebrew.

    First, I don't believe in a rapture. It is not found in the bible, if you read the Greek correctly.

    Second, BUT, and I say BUT, and I am willing to admit I am wrong, that there is a rapture, then ALL believers will be taken. There are no second class Christians, because their eschatology is wrong. (I'm assuming this because I can't read your Scriptures. You might even post in German, which I am studying, and I think I would understand it better than KJV)

    I think Enow is also going on ignore for me. So tired of his twisting of the Bible, using a Bible that simply is not readable to modern day Christians. To say nothing of how many false doctrines come out of the bad reading of people who do not speak this form of English! And did a mention false teacher, so many times?

    "But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies, even to the point of denying the Master who bought them. As a result, they will bring swift destruction on themselves. 2 And many will follow their debauched lifestyles. Because of these false teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation pronounced long ago is not sitting idly by; their destruction is not asleep." 2 Peter 2:1-3 NET

    Try the New English Bible! The scholarship is impeccable, and really written in understandable English! Not stilted to falsely follow Greek word order, either!
    Well, I am leaning towards Chiliasm. I am betwixt that and amillenialism. I am just trying to figure if the 1,000 years is literal or symbolic. But when we are called up to meet Him, I would consider that a rapture of the church.
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    Just FYI, I have studied under some of the top Greek scholars in the world, for over 2 years. I have never studied KJ English. Perhaps the thing I know, is how important it is to understand the grammar, the vocabulary, and use tools like lexicons to look up what the Greek words mean, to say nothing of morphologies and grammars. Extensive ones. I can use these tools to examine the Greek, (Or Hebrew, if I ever brushed it up).

    What tools are available for KJ English grammar? How about vocabulary? Archaic words? Obsolete words? Or, worse the words that we have in modern English, like "closet" which meant something totally different 400 years ago??

    And then there are the manuscript issues. The Byzantine texts contain so many additions and outright spurious texts. Why, would I want to read a translation from inferior sources, and those translated by Erasmus, a Roman Catholic priest?

    I pick the Greek and scholarship, as far as what the Bible says. KJV is just responsible for too many heresies, and is too hard to read for me!

    PS. No, you cannot prove the TR copies of copies are inspired. What garbage!
    Be careful. You might get stuck in your wimple with a crisping pin. Oh wait...
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    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

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    William Tyndale

    “Providence is wiser than you, and you may be confident it has suited all things better to your eternal good than you could do had you been left to your own option.” John Flavel

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
    This parable was addressing the unbelief of the Jews who were given the privilege of receiving Christ before the Gentiles but rejected Him instead.

    Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    This is a solemn reminder to all true believers to understand that the coming of Christ for His Church can be at any time. Therefore they are to keep their focus of Him, on the Gospel, on souls, and on doing His will on earth.

    For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
    This confirms the fact that the Church will not go through the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation.
    Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
    This is to teach people that life on earth is temporary and they should repent and be converted in order to be with Christ. The world is focused on worldly things, but the Christian must be focused on the eternal.

    These passage have nothing to say about whether some Christians will be left behind. Every genuine believer is in the body of Christ, therefore all the saints will be raptured.

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    Senior Member Snoozy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    if only brother nehemiah had private messages enabled..
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    Well, again, context rules. Harpazo, ἁρπαγησόμεθα in 1 Thess. 4:17, is part of a statement, in which we will be "snatched" and meet Jesus in the air. In fact, I don't really think it means go up anywhere, but I am willing to concede some movement might be involved.

    These remarks indicate that either (a) you choose to deliberately ignore the Bible doctrine of the Resurrection/Rapture or (b) you do not really understand its significance and are unwilling to learn.

    To make a doctrine out of one out-of-context word, which was transliterated into Latin, and then taken from Jerome's poor translation, and then a doctrine made up in the 18th century about this is beyond absurd. And then the OP claiming that if a born again Christian doesn't believe in this doctrine, they will be punished and not get to go "up" in this so-called "rapture" is just ludicrous!

    What is ludicrous is for people such as yourself regurgitating this propaganda about the Rapture rather than taking the time to study the doctrine.

    1. Jerome did NOT mistranslate harpagesometha when he used the word rapiemur in the Latin Vulgate (from which we derive the word Rapture).

    2. Christ Himself taught the doctrine of the Rapture BEFORE His crucifixion (John 14:1-3). If we had nothing else in Scripture regarding this matter, this passage would suffice.

    3. Since Christ is in Heaven at present, and since the New Jerusalem (which is the eternal home of the saints) is also in Heaven, where else would the Lord go with His saints except to Heaven? And it is in Heaven that all Christians will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, and then the Church will become the Lamb's Wife. So to "concede that there will be some movement" is to show that you do not really believe the Word of God.

    4. The OP is incorrect in that no Christian will be left behind, but that is not the only thing that you addressed.

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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoozy View Post
    ok Enow it would seem possible from those scriptures.

    but are u saying salvation can be lost then?
    No, because He shall lose none of all the Father has given Him ( John 6:39 ) and The Father's will is that they will be raised up in the last day, but in context with the rest of scripture, which last day will a believer be raised up in? At the pre trib rapture event as of the firstfruits of the resurrection or as they that be Christ's at His coming when He is on earth after defeating the world's armies and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years when they are resurrected after the great tribulation? That mean Christ is not meeting those saints in the air when they are resurrected after the great tribulation.

    1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    because everyone with the Holy Spirit will be taken up 2 thess 2:7
    2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    That is not talking about the Holy Spirit Himself, being taken out of the way, but the restraining power of the Holy Spirit. In context to that chapter, if believers believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation after a sign, God will permit that strong delusion to occur as the restraining power of the Holy Spirit will be removed allowing seducing spirits to come in bringing their signs upon them like "slain in the spirit" or the "holy laughter movement" or seeking to receive tongues to use privately by. This damnation spoken of in that chapter is about being disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper and thus a reprobate in becoming a castaway when they are in unrepentant iniquity as workers of iniquity.

    This is where the vessels unto dishonor in His House comes from; unrepentant saved believers that gets excommunicated from attending the Marriage Supper. That is where they get their damnation as vessels unto dishonor, BUT they are still in His House. That is why the prodigal son applies to them because they gave up their first inheritance for wild living and cannot get it back once that door to the Marriage Supper is shut after the pre trib rapture event. That is why in Revelation 18th chapter in the fall of Babylon, the voice of the Bridegroom and the bride is no longer heard in her any more... it is too late.

    That is why in light of the iniquity that was at work in Paul's day but was prophesied to be happening in droves for why there would be a falling away from the faith before Christ comes in the latter days, Paul reminded believers of the tradition taught of us in reproving that iniquity that will cause the falling away from the faith by stating that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15

    Paul goes onward to the next chapter praying that we be delivered from wicked evil men that have not faith, that do not follow after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly... as the commandment is to withdraw from those that teach otherwise from the tradition taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15, the commandment to withdraw is not to treat them as the enemy, but admonish them as brothers in the hopes they will be led to repentance because they are still His & still saved.

    So that is why nobody is to despise the little ones that went astray because whatever we do to the little ones, we would be doing it to Him, but the commandment to withdraw is to admonish them as brothers; not to treat them as the enemy. Even if it does not lead them to repentance, they will know when they get left behind, and return to Him as vessels unto dishonor as the prodigal son returns for he is still son.

    So those foolish virgins that are out to the market seeking to be filled, are called to repent to return to their first love as filled by the Spirit as promised at their salvation to be ready as the prudent virgins as waiting for the Bridegroom to receive.

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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Angela53510 View Post
    Why do you keep posting this nonsense? I have no idea what the scriptures you posted are in the OP, because I don't read KJV. And I am not willing to look it up in pretty much any modern version, to see what it means.

    Or Greek and Hebrew.
    Try leaning on Jesus Christ for wisdom in reading His words in the KJV. Otherwise, you are just spewing antiKJV nonsense because many antiKJVers can read the KJV just fine; it's just that they do not prefer it. Your prejudice is showing.

    First, I don't believe in a rapture. It is not found in the bible, if you read the Greek correctly.
    There are many anti-KJVers that believe in the rapture. They find scripture talking about the "rapture" in their modern Bibles, even though it never says "rapture".

    Second, BUT, and I say BUT, and I am willing to admit I am wrong, that there is a rapture, then ALL believers will be taken. There are no second class Christians, because their eschatology is wrong. (I'm assuming this because I can't read your Scriptures. You might even post in German, which I am studying, and I think I would understand it better than KJV)
    Have you read 1 Corinthians 5th chapter about excommunication that a church is supposed to do when a believer is in unrepentant iniquity? Why would you think that God would not do the same when the Bridegroom comes? Why do you think Jesus denied knowing those who profess Him, doing all those wonderful works in His name, other than for being workers of iniquity when practicing any iniquity is a work that denies Him?

    I think Enow is also going on ignore for me. So tired of his twisting of the Bible, using a Bible that simply is not readable to modern day Christians. To say nothing of how many false doctrines come out of the bad reading of people who do not speak this form of English! And did a mention false teacher, so many times?
    Well, another example of jumping the bandwagon to put me on ignore by not answering the scripture to correct me or to inform me the right application of His words. Is that love? No.

    And your reason is unfounded & hypocritical. You seem to be typing quite well in English. You are a fine example of why believers should not be prejudicial towards the topic of just relying on one Bible for the meat of His words which I happens to believe is the KJV, when you can get the KJV and other modern Bible version in other languages too.


    "But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies, even to the point of denying the Master who bought them. As a result, they will bring swift destruction on themselves. 2 And many will follow their debauched lifestyles. Because of these false teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. 3 And in their greed they will exploit you with deceptive words. Their condemnation pronounced long ago is not sitting idly by; their destruction is not asleep." 2 Peter 2:1-3 NET

    Try the New English Bible! The scholarship is impeccable, and really written in understandable English! Not stilted to falsely follow Greek word order, either!
    I know some believers cannot see the grammatical error that I point out in Romans 8:27, but it is in your preferred Bible version.

    Romans 8:26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness, for we do not know how we should pray, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with inexpressible groanings. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God’s will. NET

    How can the pronoun "he" that is separate from us, in searching our hearts and separate from the Spirit, in knowing the mind of the Spirit... be "the Spirit"? Verse 27 is a testimony about Jesus Christ as it is in according to the will of God that there is only One Mediator between God and men.

    That is why Another is needed for the Holy Spirit to have His inexpressible intersessions know to God the Father, seeing how even His groanings are inexpressible too. We go to John 16:13 in NET.

    John 16:
    13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. For he will not speak on his own authority, but will speak whatever he hears, and will tell you what is to come. NET

    Now the KJV...

    John 16:13
    Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. KJV

    Romans 8:
    26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. KJV

    No grammatical error here as the KJV maintains the truth in His word by keeping that pronoun "he" in verse 27 conclusion of that testimony about Jesus Christ as He is the One that searches our hearts at that throne of grace in Hebrews 4:12-16 which is in according to the will of God when there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ( 1 Timothy 2:5 )

    That is why wisdom from the Lord is needed in reading His words in the KJV rather than looking to man in providing an "easier to read" Bible than the KJV. Mankind is still at it in trying to make an easier to read Bible than the KJV. Maybe then, believers will realize that it was never about serving God in that capacity, but serving money instead. Otherwise, they would have changed the "he" out in Romans 8:27 with Jesus Christ, in maintaining the actual message that He wants us to have.


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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by EarsToHear View Post
    The so-called rapture is a false doctrine, which can only be documented by twisting scripture. This is one of Satan's MOs.
    Explain the consequence for the saints at Thyatira in Revelation.

    Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

    Regardless of what you believe, does the Lord help you understand why I believe there is a pre trib rapture? He warns the church at Thyatira to repent before He comes or else be cast into the great tribulation.

    It does not matter who you referenced in the past as supposedly being the source origin for that doctrine of the rapture; and there have been other supposed originator of that doctrine as well, you can find those verses in the Bible that speaks of the catching away which is where the word "rapture" is derived from.

    As for the seals and the trumpets; with the last one blown at His descent from Heaven, consider the analogy of the 7 seals on that scroll from which each judgment will spill out from each seal broken. In order for all those the judgments to come, the scroll has to be free of all the seals to unravel for those judgments to be known. That means it happens all at once at the pre trib rapture event in setting up the hour of temptation that shall try all remaining on the earth that will change from the world we know for the coming great tribulation.

    That is why Jesus is giving those letters to the 7 churches to get ready or else as this promise is given to the church at Philadelphia below.

    Revelation 3:
    10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. 11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

    So God will be judging His House first at the pre trib rapture event from which those left behind as castaways are the vessel unto dishonor in His House for NOT looking to Him for help in discerning good & evil by the real scripture of the KJV as no lie can be of the truth, so they can lean on Him as their Good Shepherd in departing from iniquity.

    He is faithful to keep the souls of those saints that are castaways and new saints as a result of His appearing and hearing the everlasting gospel by that first angel, that shall suffer the fire coming on the earth and the subsequent coming great tribulation as a result.

    1 Peter 4:
    17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

  19. #39
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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by trofimus View Post
    My answer is it is about Israel. They were invited, but did not want to come in.
    That is an interesting explanation, but those invited had received the invitation and were expected to come. It was only at the time of the King's Supper that they made excuses not to come. It was afterwards that the call was given out to those not invited to come to fill the empty seats and still there was room for more.

    Luke went on to testify in Luke 14:25-36 on how Jesus expounded on that parable to the multitudes about the cost of discipleship as we see the command to not love the things of this world; in fact to hate it and even our loved ones in order to come after Him as His disciple.

    Luke 14:
    24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. 25 And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. 27 And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, 30 Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish.31 Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 32 Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. 34 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be seasoned?35 It is neither fit for the land, nor yet for the dunghill; but men cast it out. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

    So that is why I do not see the parable as inviting Israel that rejected Him, but rather the cost of discipleship is to be ready & willing to leave everything behind in this world when He comes.

    Luke 21:33-36 in the OP warns of the snare of the cares of this life to those who believe in Him, rather than the nation of Israel for why they would not want to leave, thus giving excuses at the time the King's Supper was ready; not for when they had received the invitation.

    The nation of Israel has refused the invitation. They need not make excuses not to come.




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    Default Re: Why Some Saints Will Not Leave At The Rapture

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahwatukee View Post
    The gathering of the church (rapture) is a promise from the Lord in John 14:1-3 with 1 Thes.4:16-18 and 1 Cor.15:51-52 being the detailed event of when the Lord comes for the church. Wrath is coming upon this earth in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments with the resurrection of those in Christ taking place first and immediately followed by the those who are still alive being changed and caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. Since believers in Christ are not appointed to suffer wrath and Jesus rescues us from the coming wrath, then believers cannot go through the time of God's wrath, but must be removed prior to its beginning.

    If you don't believe this, then you are not believing in the Lord's promise, nor are you believing that Jesus took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve, satisfying it completely and therefore God's wrath no longer rests upon the believer.

    All of those people that you mentioned above, have been mentioned over and over again and you are just repeating this same apologetic. In order to be swayed by their teaching one would have to a follower of their teachings and adopt them. That said, I have never read anything by them, but my understanding of the gathering of the church comes straight from my own studies of the scriptures, not from the teachings of men.
    The promise of the rapture can be seen by some here in these verses below.

    John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

    But the warning that not every believer will be found abiding in Him as His disciple but cut off so as to not be taken, has been given.

    John 15:
    4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.

    It is not about loss of salvation, but of the Father chastening & scourging every child found in iniquity He receives so that they may be partakers of His holiness.


    Instead of believing in the Lord's promise to keep believers out of that time of wrath, instead you believe and teach that believers will go through the wrath of God, which Jesus already satisfied.
    Unless believers sow to the works of the flesh and have not looked to Him as their Good Shepherd for help to depart from them by laying aside every weight & sin in running that race to be received by Him in wearing His crowns of achievements as a vessel unto honor in His House.

    1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Revelation 2:
    21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

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