Baptism

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,876
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#41
Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?"

As with any single verse or passage, we discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject at hand. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, not by works of any kind, including baptism (
Ephesians 2:8-9). So, any interpretation which comes to the conclusion that baptism, or any other act, is necessary for salvation, is a faulty interpretation. For more information, see "Is salvation by faith alone, or by faith plus works?"

Those who believe that baptism is required for salvation are quick to use
1 Peter 3:21 as a “proof text,” because it states “baptism now saves you.” Was Peter really saying that the act of being baptized is what saves us? If he were, he would be contradicting many other passages of Scripture that clearly show people being saved (as evidenced by their receiving the Holy Spirit) prior to being baptized or without being baptized at all.

A good example of someone who was saved before being baptized is Cornelius and his household in
Acts 10. We know that they were saved before being baptized because they had received the Holy Spirit, which is the evidence of salvation (Romans 8:9; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 3:24). The evidence of their salvation was the reason Peter allowed them to be baptized. Countless passages of Scripture clearly teach that salvation comes when one believes in the gospel, at which time he or she is sealed “in Christ with the Holy Spirit of promise” (Ephesians 1:13).

Thankfully, though, we don’t have to guess at what Peter means in this verse because he clarifies that for us with the phrase “not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience.” While Peter is connecting baptism with salvation, it is not the act of being baptized that he is referring to (not the removal of dirt from the flesh). Being immersed in water does nothing but wash away dirt. What Peter is referring to is what baptism represents, which is what saves us (an appeal to God for a good conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ). In other words, Peter is simply connecting baptism with belief. It is not the getting-wet part that saves but is the “appeal to God for a clean conscience” which is signified by baptism, that saves us. The appeal to God always comes first. First belief and repentance, then we are baptized to publicly identify ourselves with Christ.

An excellent explanation of this passage is given by Dr. Kenneth Wuest, author of Word Studies in the Greek New Testament. “Water baptism is clearly in the apostle's mind, not the baptism by the Holy Spirit, for he speaks of the waters of the flood as saving the inmates of the ark, and in this verse, of baptism saving believers. But he says that it saves them only as a counterpart. That is, water baptism is the counterpart of the reality, salvation. It can only save as a counterpart, not actually. The Old Testament sacrifices were counterparts of the reality, the Lord Jesus. They did not actually save the believer, only in type. It is not argued here that these sacrifices are analogous to Christian water baptism. The author is merely using them as an illustration of the use of the word 'counterpart.'

"So water baptism only saves the believer in type. The Old Testament Jew was saved before he brought the offering. That offering was only his outward testimony that he was placing faith in the Lamb of God of whom these sacrifices were a type....Water baptism is the outward testimony of the believer's inward faith. The person is saved the moment he places his faith in the Lord Jesus. Water baptism is the visible testimony to his faith and the salvation he was given in answer to that faith.

Peter is careful to inform his readers that he is not teaching baptismal regeneration, namely, that a person who submits to baptism is thereby regenerated, for he says, 'not the putting away of the filth of the flesh.' Baptism, Peter explains, does not wash away the filth of the flesh, either in a literal sense as a bath for the body, nor in a metaphorical sense as a cleansing for the soul. No ceremonies really affect the conscience. But he defines what he means by salvation, in the words 'the answer of a good conscience toward God," and he explains how this is accomplished, namely, 'by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,' in that the believing sinner is identified with Him in that resurrection.”

Part of the confusion on this passage comes from the fact that in many ways the purpose of baptism as a public declaration of one’s faith in Christ and identification with Him has been replaced by “making a decision for Christ” or “praying a sinner’s prayer.” Baptism has been relegated to something that is done later. Yet to Peter or any of the first-century Christians, the idea that a person would confess Christ as his Savior and not be baptized as soon as possible would have been unheard of. Therefore, it is not surprising that Peter would see baptism as almost synonymous with salvation. Yet Peter makes it clear in this verse that it is not the ritual itself that saves, but the fact that we are united with Christ in His resurrection through faith, “the pledge of a good conscience toward God through the resurrection of Jesus Christ” (
1 Peter 3:21).

Therefore, the baptism that Peter says saves us is the one that is preceded by faith in the propitiatory sacrifice of Christ that justifies the unrighteous sinner (
Romans 3:25-26; 4:5). Baptism is the outward sign of what God has done “by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:5).
https://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-1Peter-3-21.html
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,876
26,037
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#42
There is simply nothing I can say. By your own admission you will filter whatever I present through your filter of what is true. Unless you are at least willing to admit your filter can be wrong this is not a debate but a one way discourse.
You are a false accuser. Why don't you admit you are wrong? I am not interested in your lies.
 

Innerfire89

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2017
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#43
Name calling is a classic tool of the bully.

You are quite wrong on the wedding guest not being invited. The parable in Matthew 22 states that all were invited but the guest in question was not wearing the proper garments, intentional or not. The guest was without excuse, the proper garments were available. He chose to ignore them.
That's just it through, they weren't one of Christ sheep, the elect, who do as they are commanded. It didnt make sense for that guest to be there because he rejected the invitation and didn't have on the clothes of righteousness that come by faith in Christ.

You are using one verse to intreperate the broader context of Scripture. It's the blood of Christ that cleanses us of sin not the water of baptism.
1St John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eteranal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
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#44
That's just it through, they weren't one of Christ sheep, the elect, who do as they are commanded. It didnt make sense for that guest to be there because he rejected the invitation and didn't have on the clothes of righteousness that come by faith in Christ.

You are using one verse to intreperate the broader context of Scripture. It's the blood of Christ that cleanses us of sin not the water of baptism.
1St John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eteranal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from dead works to serve the living God.
The man not wearing the wedding garment was a guest, all were invited. The king called him friend. He was never labeled as uninvited. If he had simply put on the garment he would not even be called out by the king. Why not just admit you misused the verse and more on.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,876
26,037
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#45
The man not wearing the wedding garment was a guest, all were invited. The king called him friend. He was never labeled as uninvited. If he had simply put on the garment he would not even be called out by the king. Why not just admit you misused the verse and more on.
He already said the man was a guest, so you have misread and responded completely inappropriately again. Jesus also called Judas friend, knowing Judas was lost, unclean, and doomed to destruction.
 

Innerfire89

Senior Member
Aug 23, 2017
586
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#47
The man not wearing the wedding garment was a guest, all were invited. The king called him friend. He was never labeled as uninvited. If he had simply put on the garment he would not even be called out by the king. Why not just admit you misused the verse and more on.
What is the wedding feast? Heaven, right? So whoever the guest is doesn't meet the requirements to be there, do people who don't have the righeious requirements of Christ come into and are thrown out of heaven? The man who wasn't wearing the garments wasn't supposed to be there because he rejected Christ he was still in his dirt clothes, his sin.
More importantly he was thrown out and the reason he was thrown out, that reason must be concluded from Scripture, so we are back on track now.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
55,876
26,037
113
#48
What is the wedding feast? Heaven, right? So whoever the guest is doesn't meet the requirements to be there, do people who don't have the righeious requirements of Christ come into and are thrown out of heaven? The man who wasn't wearing the garments wasn't supposed to be there because he rejected Christ he was still in his dirt clothes, his sin.

More importantly he was thrown out and the reason he was thrown out, that reason must be concluded from Scripture, so we are back on track now.
The OP is speaking as if the garment was an actual piece of clothing :eek: I agree: it signifies the robes of righteousness we put on through repentance and faith in Christ's work on the cross, and our eventual union with Him (following the resurrection and judgment of all), which is pictured as a wedding ceremony/feast.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#50
Being baptized is obeying the gospel, and the Bible says that those who refuse to obey the gospel will experience the vengeance of God-
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Those who refuse to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) are described as "lost" and "blind" (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and will experience the vengeance of God (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

therefore to not be baptized is to not be saved- therefore to be baptized is to be saved- like 1 Peter 3:21 says.
The gospel is not "receive water baptism or perish." To not believe the gospel by refusing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is to not be saved. Salvation is signified, but NOT procured in water baptism.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

Only those in Christ will be saved, and baptism is what puts us into Christ (Romans 6:3), therefore yes, it is extremely needed.
You are confusing Spirit baptism (which is extremely needed) with water baptism. As long as you continue to confuse the symbol (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism), you will remain confused. The symbol is not the reality, but is the picture of the reality.

Our obedience in baptism does not earn salvation, but God only gives it to those who obey.
Sugar coated double talk. If water baptism stands between us and heaven and is the means of our salvation, then there is merit in receiving water baptism to obtain salvation. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways. Only genuine believers obey Christ.

He does not give it to the murderers, drunkards, homosexuals, kidnappers, and the like who give no effort to obey Him.
1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Only believers obey Him. Without faith, it's impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
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#51
You sound like a Pharisee
arguing the letter of the law
and ignoring the spirit of it.
When ones' hand in caught in the proverbial false theology cookie jar, the answer always seems to be, "but the spirit of the law..."
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
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48
#52
We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Those who refuse to believe the gospel (Romans 1:16) are described as "lost" and "blind" (2 Corinthians 4:3,4) and will experience the vengeance of God (2 Thessalonians 1:8).

The gospel is not "receive water baptism or perish." To not believe the gospel by refusing to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation is to not be saved. Salvation is signified, but NOT procured in water baptism.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter tells us that baptism now saves you, yet when Peter uses this phrase he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He says that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not the part which saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *NOTE: The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, ONLY THE WICKED IN NOAH'S DAY CAME IN CONTACT WITH THE WATER AND THEY ALL PERISHED.

You are confusing Spirit baptism (which is extremely needed) with water baptism. As long as you continue to confuse the symbol (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism), you will remain confused. The symbol is not the reality, but is the picture of the reality.

Sugar coated double talk. If water baptism stands between us and heaven and is the means of our salvation, then there is merit in receiving water baptism to obtain salvation. Either Christ did it all or else we did some of it. You can't have it both ways. Only genuine believers obey Christ.

1 Corinthians 6:11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Only believers obey Him. Without faith, it's impossible to please God, so unbelievers do not obey Him no matter how much so called obedience that they attempt to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to receive salvation by works.
Believing that by believing the notion that if one believes that we are saved by believing said notion is simply absurd. Accepting this formula is nothing more than salvation by mental assent and such faith is DOA. No one is saved because they believe they can be saved by believing.

You are fooling no one. Your formula of salvation is no more or less works based then any other salvation theology. You insist a person must accept and confess the validity of your formula in order to be saved. Anyone who denies this formula is condemned. This is by definition a works based theology. If believing that baptism is the point of forgiveness of sins is a work then so is believing your formula.

The main difference is your work (believing the validity of your formula) has no basis in scripture but baptism certainly does.
 
Aug 8, 2017
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#53
I thought the reason John was baptizing was so he could identify who the christ was
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#54
Do you believe the physical act of baptism is needed for one to be born again?
In other words is baptism a spiritual thing or do we have to be baptized here on earth by being submerged in water?
I believe that baptism has no role in Salvation whatsoever.

However we are commanded to believe and be baptized. Even though Baptism plays no role in Salvation it is a a public testimony that we identify with Jesus in His death, burial, and resurrection.
 

Marcelo

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2016
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#55
I think one can be saved without baptism, but if Jesus himself went through baptism why should we not do the same?

Baptism helps us take more seriously our commitment to the Lord in the same way that a wedding ceremony helps a person take more seriously their commitment to the spouse. I said: "it helps" (nothing more than that).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#56
Believing that by believing the notion that if one believes that we are saved by believing said notion is simply absurd.
Luke 8:12 - ..believe and be saved. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned.. Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things.. Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. hmm...

For those who believe it's absurd: 1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, *it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.*

Accepting this formula is nothing more than salvation by mental assent and such faith is DOA.
Faith that trusts in works for salvation and not in CHRIST ALONE is DOA. Saving faith in Christ goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief and also includes trust and reliance in Christ for salvation. Yet since you seem to believe that ALL belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp a DEEPER belief/faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation, you remain confused. That also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

Merely believing in our head that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" is mere "mental assent" belief. Trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in our heart goes beyond mere mental assent belief and is saving belief/faith.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. *See the difference?

I believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington as the means of my salvation. *See the difference?

No one is saved because they believe they can be saved by believing.
Sounds like an oxymoron. We are saved because we BELIEVE (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:29, 40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 5:13 etc..). When will you stop fighting the truth and BELIEVE?

You are fooling no one. Your formula of salvation is no more or less works based then any other salvation theology. You insist a person must accept and confess the validity of your formula in order to be saved. Anyone who denies this formula is condemned. This is by definition a works based theology.
You are fooling no one. Your formula of salvation by "water and works" is works based, yet salvation by grace through faith, not works, is not works based. Jesus drew the line in the sand on who is saved and who is condemned in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If believing that baptism is the point of forgiveness of sins is a work then so is believing your formula.
False. Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Baptism is a work which follows saving faith in Christ and if baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, that would add merit on our part to receiving salvation because then we would be saved through Christ's finished work of redemption "plus the work of getting water baptized."

We receive eternal life by placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. To say that we must "add works" to the equation is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what such a person really mean then, is that they lack the trust and reliance that Christ alone can eternally save them. This lack of trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation reduces their belief/faith down to mere "mental assent" belief. A counterfeit gospel cannot secure salvation for anyone. For a person to have always trusted in a counterfeit gospel, regardless of what church they may be a member of, means they have never relied solely on Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and the free gift of eternal life.

*Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save. No supplements needed.

The main difference is your work (believing the validity of your formula) has no basis in scripture but baptism certainly does.
Salvation by "water and works" has no basis in scripture, but salvation through belief/faith certainly does.
 

DJ2

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,660
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#57
Luke 8:12 - ..believe and be saved. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned.. Acts 10:43 - ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Acts 13:39 - and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things.. Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. hmm...

For those who believe it's absurd: 1 Corinthians 1:21 - For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, *it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who BELIEVE.*

Faith that trusts in works for salvation and not in CHRIST ALONE is DOA. Saving faith in Christ goes beyond mere "mental assent" belief and also includes trust and reliance in Christ for salvation. Yet since you seem to believe that ALL belief is the same "except for the lack of works" and cannot grasp a DEEPER belief/faith that trusts exclusively in Christ for salvation, you remain confused. That also explains why you have so much faith in "water and works."

Merely believing in our head that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" is mere "mental assent" belief. Trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation in our heart goes beyond mere mental assent belief and is saving belief/faith.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/entrust their spiritual well being to Christ; have faith/reliance upon Christ for salvation. *See the difference?

I believe "mental assent" in the existence and historical facts George Washington, but I am not trusting in George Washington as the means of my salvation. *See the difference?

Sounds like an oxymoron. We are saved because we BELIEVE (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18; 6:29, 40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Ephesians 1:13; 1 John 5:13 etc..). When will you stop fighting the truth and BELIEVE?

You are fooling no one. Your formula of salvation by "water and works" is works based, yet salvation by grace through faith, not works, is not works based. Jesus drew the line in the sand on who is saved and who is condemned in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

False. Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation. Through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work," (Christ's finished work of redemption). Baptism is a work which follows saving faith in Christ and if baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, that would add merit on our part to receiving salvation because then we would be saved through Christ's finished work of redemption "plus the work of getting water baptized."

We receive eternal life by placing our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. To say that we must "add works" to the equation is to say that Christ’s finished work of redemption is insufficient to secure our salvation, and what such a person really mean then, is that they lack the trust and reliance that Christ alone can eternally save them. This lack of trust and reliance in Christ alone for salvation reduces their belief/faith down to mere "mental assent" belief. A counterfeit gospel cannot secure salvation for anyone. For a person to have always trusted in a counterfeit gospel, regardless of what church they may be a member of, means they have never relied solely on Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of sins and the free gift of eternal life.

*Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save. No supplements needed.

Salvation by "water and works" has no basis in scripture, but salvation through belief/faith certainly does.
"False. Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation."


"False. Believing is clearly not a work that merits our salvation."


And the same applies to baptism.

If believing has no merit toward salvation, why would baptism be any different?
 
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DiscipleDave

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2012
3,095
69
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#58
Do you believe the physical act of baptism is needed for one to be born again?
In other words is baptism a spiritual thing or do we have to be baptized here on earth by being submerged in water?
Does not Scriptures reveal this answer?

Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Clearly there are two different kinds of baptisms mentioned here
1) Baptism by water
2) Baptism by the Holy Ghost and with fire

Scriptures mentions another baptism as well, for the dead

1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Eph_4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Which baptism do you think is REQUIRED for one to be Saved? by Water, by Holy Ghost, or for the dead?


^i^

††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††

DiscipleDave
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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#59
And the same applies to baptism.

If believing has no merit toward salvation, why would baptism be any different?
Baptism is different, along with any other works that would be "added" to salvation through faith and believing is not simply just another work in a series of works in a quest to receive salvation by works. *Again, through believing, we are completely trusting in "Another's work" (Christ's finished work of redemption). Baptism is a work which follows saving faith in Christ and if water baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, that would add merit on our part to receiving salvation because then we would be saved through Christ's finished work of redemption "plus the work of getting water baptized," which renders Christ's finished work of redemption insufficient to save. God Forbid!