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Thread: Cessationism

  1. #21
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by BenFTW View Post
    If you do not believe these things are for today, is it any wonder why you do not see it?
    That is hardly a valid argument. While Christ and the apostles were on earth, they were bitterly opposed and persecuted. Many Jews refused to believe that they were sent by God. Yet that did not in any way hinder them from performing signs, and wonders, and miracles. IOW unbelief could not stop miracles.

    Today, it would be the same. If indeed unbelief was stopping miracles, then that would be contrary to the teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not say that those gifts could be prevented from being manifested simply by unbelief. At the same time, the Bible makes it clear that signs, wonders, and miracles were for a limited purpose, and a limited period. And that is while the Gospel being preached by Christ and the apostles was authenticated by God.

    Today, with a complete Bible, God wants people to believe the Gospel because He has given us a record of His Son. Now the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. And the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel as the "seed" from which the New Birth comes about.

    If miracle workers were to be active today, they would be in EVERY CHURCH, regardless of whether it was Pentecostal or not, and regardless of who believed and who did not. It is God who would be placing miracle workers in all the churches if He still wished to use miracles to authenticate the Gospel.

    In any any event, supernatural prophecies, tongues, and knowledge have all passed away. People can either believe the Bible or disbelieve it. As Jesus said, if they do not believe Moses, they will not believe though one rose from the dead.

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    That is very easily resolved. Paul was writing while the Apostolic Age was in full force. But before the end of the first century, "they shall" became "they have". Read the writings of the Apostolic Fathers.

    Take the example of prophecies. The book of Revelation was written around 90 AD, and the last chapter of that book makes it crystal clear that there would be no more prophecies.

    For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
    Nehemiah6,

    I'm surprised that you overlook the two witnesses promised in Chapter 11 of that same book.

    Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. <-- Have these guys already came and prophesied?

    From what I understand, the "prophecy of this book" had to be the book of revelation, not the bible, because the bible wasn't even a book then (from what i understand not for 100 years-ish?). Plus, "the words of the prophecy of this book" only prophesies that the two witnesses shall come...not what they say. Whatever the two witnesses prophesy will indeed be the word of God, and likely be written in their own book...not added to the book of Revelation.

    Also, the warning not to add to or take away from the word of God is not unique to the book of revelation. It was also stated in Proverbs and even as early as Deuteronomy.

    Pro_30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. <-- what they already had was "his words" was it not? Could we not similarly take that to mean "no more is to come"?


    Deu_4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. <-- that one is very similar, and we know it doesn't mean that Moses' writings were the last and only word of God to be written.

    Sorry to write so much, (I'd been waiting to share that for quite some time)
    Kelby
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    We need to ask which spirit it is. the Devil works lies and wonders. the Devil can heal sickness when he puts it in people.
    Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
    2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
    2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    The sure word is our only safety.
    Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

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    Senior Member OneFaith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    I am familiar with those passages. The problem is, it says "they shall". That is not the same as "they have".
    This is because at the time it was written the Bible had not been completed yet- but it does say when- “When completion comes, what was only in part will disappear.” You see, we no longer need prophets to tell us what God says, because we now have His complete Word to us. And since we no longer need prophets (except for those who prophesy what the Word already says- which people can read for themselves), we also no longer need the miracles that identified them.

    But faith, hope, and love remain (the prayer of a righteous man is effective). Miracles have ceased, tongues have ceased, when? Upon the completion of the Bible and the end of the 12 apostles. I do believe powerful things happen as a result of prayer- such as the healing of cancer. But you will no longer find someone miraculously walking on water, controlling the weather, parting the sea, instantly healing the blind deaf and infirm, or raising the dead, etc.



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    Senior Member Snoozy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    i believe that God can still do all the signs.

    ive seen people healed. ive been healed. but i dont believe anyone has the kinda gift of healing the apostles had were someone touches their cloak and is healed instantly.

    this is why its so important to be a dispensationalist or rightly divide the word of truth. or u'll get mixed up on all sorts of doctrines.
    the book of acts is a transitional book. by the time u get to the end of paul's ministry he departs people who are sick and is traveling with a doctor too. he tells timothy to drink a little wine for his stomach sake so clearly he wasnt able to heal freely anymore.

    the signs were for the jews. thats why the signs are coming back soon when the church is taken up and we enter the time of jacob's trouble. jews require a sign the bible says.
    the signs were to confirm the message of the apostles as authentic.

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    Senior Member dcontroversal's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Look at the word perfect within the context of...when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall be done away....to add to post 2 and 3......translate that and it becomes all to obvious what is being talked about....IMV

    But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is inpartshall be done away.

    Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: teleios
    Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
    Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
    Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

    Original Word: καταργέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: katargeó
    Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
    Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
    Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

    There are only two possibilities when the word perfect is viewed.......and I will remind everyone truthfully....the only church that had an issue with tongues and the gifts was the IMMATURE Corinthian Church that had some 15 errors.......

    Why would PAUL say the thing he said about putting away childish things when he became an adult, or would rather speak 10000 words in a known language or etc........
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    Senior Member OneFaith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by dcontroversal View Post
    Look at the word perfect within the context of...when that which is perfect is come then that which is in part shall be done away....to add to post 2 and 3......translate that and it becomes all to obvious what is being talked about....IMV

    But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is inpartshall be done away.

    Original Word: τέλειος, α, ον
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: teleios
    Phonetic Spelling: (tel'-i-os)
    Short Definition: perfect, full-grown
    Definition: perfect, (a) complete in all its parts, (b) full grown, of full age, (c) specially of the completeness of Christian character.

    Original Word: καταργέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: katargeó
    Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
    Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
    Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from.

    There are only two possibilities when the word perfect is viewed.......and I will remind everyone truthfully....the only church that had an issue with tongues and the gifts was the IMMATURE Corinthian Church that had some 15 errors.......

    Why would PAUL say the thing he said about putting away childish things when he became an adult, or would rather speak 10000 words in a known language or etc........
    Because at the time Paul was speaking before the Bible had been made perfect (complete). So the things that cease had not ceased yet. “But are soon to disappear.”
    Last edited by OneFaith; 1 Week Ago at 08:48 AM.

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    Senior Member notuptome's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Cessationist is a counter term to the term charismatic. Both side accuse one another and misuse the bible to accomplish their ends.

    1 Cor 13:8 speaks of only three gifts ending or ceasing or vanishing away. The problem is that the one gift is tongues. Tongues are the pet gift of the current age. Tongues are undefined in the current age by those who claim to "operate" in them.

    For the cause of Christ
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    use it to examine yourself not others.

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    Senior Member Dino246's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Some of you who claim that "the miraculous has ceased" and claim the Revelation passage to confirm it, actually violate Revelation by adding to the words of 1 Corinthians 13.

    Nowhere in that chapter does it say "miracles will cease" or "healings will cease".

    And, for the record, I don't think that one should judge the existence (or otherwise) or miracles today by the ministry of Benny Hinn. Instead, I'd encourage people to read Craig Keener's recent book on the subject.

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    That is hardly a valid argument. While Christ and the apostles were on earth, they were bitterly opposed and persecuted. Many Jews refused to believe that they were sent by God. Yet that did not in any way hinder them from performing signs, and wonders, and miracles. IOW unbelief could not stop miracles.

    Today, it would be the same. If indeed unbelief was stopping miracles, then that would be contrary to the teaching on the gifts of the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not say that those gifts could be prevented from being manifested simply by unbelief. At the same time, the Bible makes it clear that signs, wonders, and miracles were for a limited purpose, and a limited period. And that is while the Gospel being preached by Christ and the apostles was authenticated by God.

    Today, with a complete Bible, God wants people to believe the Gospel because He has given us a record of His Son. Now the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe. And the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel as the "seed" from which the New Birth comes about.

    If miracle workers were to be active today, they would be in EVERY CHURCH, regardless of whether it was Pentecostal or not, and regardless of who believed and who did not. It is God who would be placing miracle workers in all the churches if He still wished to use miracles to authenticate the Gospel.

    In any any event, supernatural prophecies, tongues, and knowledge have all passed away. People can either believe the Bible or disbelieve it. As Jesus said, if they do not believe Moses, they will not believe though one rose from the dead.
    WoW! This argument reminds me that "famous" scientific study where, after they cut off all the frogs legs, and told the frog to jump? They concluded: "Frog with no legs, cannot hear." Brilliant deduction, there Sherlocks.

    Or?

    What does one call christians with no arms and legs?

    Doesn't matter what ya call them. They ain't comin'.


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    "You GO Lord Of The Harvest!"




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    Senior Member 7seasrekeyed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    Where did this doctrine come from?

    Is there any scripture to back it up? I have yet to find any.

    Why is cessationism versus continuation such a dividing factor in the church today?

    Obviously, I am not a cessationist. If you are, don't worry, I don't think you're a bad person or 'not saved' or anything ridiculous like that. But I am genuinely curious, why do you believe the Holy Spirit would just... stop doing what He's doing in the world in such a powerful way?

    it's certainly not in the Bible

    'nuff said

    you will find alot of opposition here against speaking in tongues

    but of course the gift of teaching and knowledge is often claimed by those doing so

    go figure
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Innerfire89 View Post
    1 Cor. 13:8 Love never ends; as for prophesies, they will pass away; as for tounges, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

    The question is when and why. For cessationist it's when Scripture was complete and the church established.
    sigh

    so wisdom has ceased then, has it? that may explain quite a bit

    knowledge belongs to a bygone era. I gotta say that sometimes I believe that may be so

    can we please have some new scripture that actually defines cessationism as a viable doctrine of man?

    personally, I think this description of the doctrine of man is what I believe it to be:

    I will not blabber in tongues. I am not going to make a fool of myself. what if I loose control? (if you do, it is you and not the Holy Spirit)

    I don't want to be one of those tongues talkers and have people point me out

    I understand all there is to know, I don't have to add to it

    and more of the same

    remember, that is just my opinion on the man made doctrine of cessationism...which often only means tongues and not teaching etc because of course, that is a dignified office and demands respect and puts people under your authority. and you get to demand they listen to you.

    ugly and undignified IMO, but that may just be me

    I better go let myself have it now...LOL!
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    Where did this doctrine come from?

    Is there any scripture to back it up? I have yet to find any.

    Why is cessationism versus continuation such a dividing factor in the church today?

    Obviously, I am not a cessationist. If you are, don't worry, I don't think you're a bad person or 'not saved' or anything ridiculous like that. But I am genuinely curious, why do you believe the Holy Spirit would just... stop doing what He's doing in the world in such a powerful way?
    Probably because the focus and the zeal is on tongues WITHOUT interpretation to seek after rather than prophesy which is to edify. Paul puts the spotlight on the gift of prophesy for believers that are zealous for spiritual gifts to seek after ( 1 Corinthians 14:1 ), but for all the zeal and hype in churches, they are promoting the gift of tongues way more than prophecy. Go figure. One would think by now that the Holy Spirit would have put that zeal on hold to return to edify.

    But no. It is such a cool thing to do that everybody just has to have it, talk about it, but yet not really coming with interpretation in the assembly but somehow, they can use it privately in a "quiet" way without bothering any one around them. Can you see why some believers have to wonder if tongues have ceased?

    AND because many tongue speakers claim they got that tongue for private use by a "second blessing" of having received the Holy Spirit apart from salvation which in turn prompts believers to seek after by & for that sign of tongues; and yet tongues were not to serve as a sign towards the believers in seeking after for anything. 1 Corinthians 14:22 Paul warned against those that preach another Jesus or another spirit to receive and thus preaching another gospel; 2 Corinthians 11:3-4

    So it is probably more than likely, the doctrine came from many churches in these latter days that abuse tongues for what God intended His gift of tongues was for.... which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people that it has to come with interpretation when used in the assembly or understood by a foreigner or else the Holy Spirit is not manifesting that tongue.

    There is a supernatural tongue that has been in the world before Pentecost that was just plain vain & profane babbling nonsense as gained by the receiving of spirits in the occult, idolatry, or world's religions.

    Speaking In Tongues Not Necessarily Christian: Widespread In Heathen Religions

    IN NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS.--Tongues occupied a significant place in ancient Greek religion. The seeress at Delphi, not far from Corinth, spoke in tongues. According to Plutarch (A.D. 44-117), interpreters were kept in attendance to explain her incoherent utterances. Many scholars have stated that tongues were experienced in the mystery religions (Osirius, Mithra, Eleusinian, Dionsyian, and Orphic cults). Some have concluded that the unintelligible lists of "words" in the "magical papyri" and in certain Gnostic "prayers" are records of ecstatic utterances. About A.D. 180 Celsus reported ecstatic utterances among the Gnostics. Lucian of Samosata (A.D. 120-198) described tongues speaking as it was practiced by the devotees of the Syrian goddess, Juno.


    Today shamans (witch doctors, priests, or medicine men) in Haiti, Greenland, Micronesia, and countries of Africa, Australia, Asia, and North and South America speak in tongues. Several groups use drugs to aid in inducing the ecstatic state and utterances. Voodoo practitioners speak in tongues. Buddhist and Shinto priest have been heard speaking in tongues. Moslems have spoken in tongues, and an ancient tradition even reports that Mohammed himself spoke in tongues. According to his own account, after his ecstatic experiences he found it difficult to return to "logical and intelligible speech" (Kelsey, p. 143).


    So when believers insists they can use God's gift of tongues privately when it does not come with interpretation, then Biblically, I cannot believe God's gift of tongues is in use today. I believe that tongue speakers believe they have that gift because it is real, but I believe they failed to test the spirits & the tongue it had brought because they want it to be God's gift of tongues when it isn't.

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Dino246 View Post
    Some of you who claim that "the miraculous has ceased" and claim the Revelation passage to confirm it, actually violate Revelation by adding to the words of 1 Corinthians 13.

    Nowhere in that chapter does it say "miracles will cease" or "healings will cease".
    Of course 1 Cor 13 speaks only about prophecies, tongues, and knowledge. That they will cease. But the rest of the New Testament makes it clear that signs, wonders, and miracles were for the apostles and their companions. And by the time we get to the book of James, healings are through the prayers of the elders. So sign gifts were for the Apostolic Age, but there are many other gifts which are for today.

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    Come on. Who can deny this!?!??




    Benny Hinn?

    that is so false and so typical!

    NO ONE here, NO ONE has any respect for this guy

    NO ONE

    and you know that since you pull this thing out of your pocket every time

    reminds me of the organ grinder letting his monkey loose...not you, Hinn

    you would be the organ grinder LOL! the show is on...
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Of course 1 Cor 13 speaks only about prophecies, tongues, and knowledge. That they will cease. But the rest of the New Testament makes it clear that signs, wonders, and miracles were for the apostles and their companions. And by the time we get to the book of James, healings are through the prayers of the elders. So sign gifts were for the Apostolic Age, but there are many other gifts which are for today.
    what did I tell you!

    see?

    only the gifts that are totally dependant on the Holy Spirit have ceased (not)

    teaching etc are still ongoing, right?

    thing is, it is God who gives the gifts through His Spirit..and that includes teaching, but so many...so MANY self appointed teachers with the gift of exposing their lack of spiritual understanding and anointing, exploiting general Joe Blow public

    the day will come when some of you will wish you could speak in tongues because your prayers will not be answered because you rejected what God wanted to give you

    gettin' serious now
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by 7seasrekeyed View Post
    Benny Hinn?

    that is so false and so typical!

    NO ONE here, NO ONE has any respect for this guy

    NO ONE

    .
    You might want to see this thread if that is really true or not.

    Benny Hinn



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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    When these signs in the bible happened, ppl saw them. They saw Dorcas raised by Peter. They saw Eutychus raised by Paul. They saw Jesus raise ppl from the dead. They saw the lame walk, the mute talk, the blind see. Prophecies spoken came to fruition.

    I see none of these today. I agree we walk by faith and not by sight. However, there are no events in today's world confirming these gifts are still alive today.
    I do not want to put God in a box. If the miraculous occurs that's awesome!

    But this brother brings up a very valid point. Why would those with these "gifts" of healing and bringing people back from the dead not be done in a public way as to bring Glory to God, and perhaps bring many to Christ as was done by the early Church?

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    Of course 1 Cor 13 speaks only about prophecies, tongues, and knowledge. That they will cease. But the rest of the New Testament makes it clear that signs, wonders, and miracles were for the apostles and their companions. And by the time we get to the book of James, healings are through the prayers of the elders. So sign gifts were for the Apostolic Age, but there are many other gifts which are for today.
    Well, since this "doctrine" of cessationism is so "clear" in the New Testament, there should be several verses that you can provide, which need no interpretation, to demonstrate its truth. I invite you to post them.
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Enow View Post
    Probably because the focus and the zeal is on tongues WITHOUT interpretation to seek after rather than prophesy which is to edify. Paul puts the spotlight on the gift of prophesy for believers that are zealous for spiritual gifts to seek after ( 1 Corinthians 14:1 ), but for all the zeal and hype in churches, they are promoting the gift of tongues way more than prophecy.
    Once again, you get back on the 'tongues' unmerry-go-round, when that isn't the core topic. Even if "tongues" were not valid today, it says nothing about other manifestations of the Holy Spirit, such as healing or miraculous signs.

    Both healings and tongues are manifest in my local congregation. Cessationism is trumped by real-world experience.
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