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Thread: Cessationism

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    Default Cessationism

    Where did this doctrine come from?

    Is there any scripture to back it up? I have yet to find any.

    Why is cessationism versus continuation such a dividing factor in the church today?

    Obviously, I am not a cessationist. If you are, don't worry, I don't think you're a bad person or 'not saved' or anything ridiculous like that. But I am genuinely curious, why do you believe the Holy Spirit would just... stop doing what He's doing in the world in such a powerful way?

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    Where did this doctrine come from? Is there any scripture to back it up?
    You did not look hard enough.

    Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8).

    Cessationism comes from the word "cease", and cease means "to stop". Here are the Greek words (actually the same word) to match the English.

    καταργηθήσονται

    καταργηθήσεται

    καταργέω

    Strong's Concordance
    katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
    Original Word: καταργέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: katargeó
    Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
    Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
    Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from
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    Senior Member Innerfire89's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    1 Cor. 13:8 Love never ends; as for prophesies, they will pass away; as for tounges, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away.

    The question is when and why. For cessationist it's when Scripture was complete and the church established.
    Matthew 22:37
    "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind" and " Love your neighbor as you love yourself."


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw God's truth attacked and yet keep silent. John Calvin

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    I am familiar with those passages. The problem is, it says "they shall". That is not the same as "they have".
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    I am familiar with those passages. The problem is, it says "they shall". That is not the same as "they have".
    The ceasing didn't happen during the writing of the letter. But it was said that they would cease. I believe the porpuse of the those gifts was met.
    Laish and SovereignGrace like this.
    Matthew 22:37
    "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind" and " Love your neighbor as you love yourself."


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw God's truth attacked and yet keep silent. John Calvin

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    I am familiar with those passages. The problem is, it says "they shall". That is not the same as "they have".
    That is very easily resolved. Paul was writing while the Apostolic Age was in full force. But before the end of the first century, "they shall" became "they have". Read the writings of the Apostolic Fathers.

    Take the example of prophecies. The book of Revelation was written around 90 AD, and the last chapter of that book makes it crystal clear that there would be no more prophecies.

    For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Similarly supernatural tongues and supernatural knowledge (apart from the written Word of God) ceased.

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    That verse is specifically referring to adding to/removing from (essentially tampering with) the account of the Apocalypse of John (Book of Revelation). It is quite possible that Revelation pre dated the book of Jude, so it is taking that verse out of context to use it as a warning against adding to or removing from the Bible as a whole even, let alone to apply it to all prophecy in general.

    Also, much of Revelation is multi- layered, and one major layer is the end times. It makes more sense to assume that prophecy will cease upon the return of Christ, when all things will be fulfilled.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    It makes more sense to assume that prophecy will cease upon the return of Christ, when all things will be fulfilled.
    Sorry, but you are forcing an interpretation on the book of Revelation which is unwarranted. There are no more extra-biblical prophecies. God has told us what we need to know via the last book of the Bible, which has been placed there deliberately and chronologically to tell Christians" PROPHECIES HAVE CEASED".

    Do not believe Nostradamus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, or Benny Hinn.

    The fulfillment of Bible prophecies is an entirely different issue, and much of the book of Revelation is yet future.

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    I think...First of all, I agree with the OP. I believe, Paul was saying this, in the light of apostasy. As he was having his hands full just trying to get those churches started. The HS leading him, and he was running his little legs ragged, in just trying to keep up. And this was what? Just a mere 70 years er so since Christ ascended? If the people, who were willing, mind you, and couldn't "get it together" just 70 years after Christ, due to how strong the enemy is? It's not very hard to imagine, how this "cessation", took hold after, well, I don't really know when this "dogma" of cessation started. But after some 1500 years, how much further the falling/drifting away has widened, or deepened?

    .....And, with no miracles as credentials for authority?
    (Cutting through the chaff)

    "You GO Lord Of The Harvest!"




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    Senior Member Innerfire89's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    That verse is specifically referring to adding to/removing from (essentially tampering with) the account of the Apocalypse of John (Book of Revelation). It is quite possible that Revelation pre dated the book of Jude, so it is taking that verse out of context to use it as a warning against adding to or removing from the Bible as a whole even, let alone to apply it to all prophecy in general.

    Also, much of Revelation is multi- layered, and one major layer is the end times. It makes more sense to assume that prophecy will cease upon the return of Christ, when all things will be fulfilled.
    Although that warning is exclusive to Revelations, the same goes for all Scripture. We more than one warning not to add or take away from Scripture. Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6.

    There is nothing that needs to be added, every word is God breathed and final.
    Laish and SovereignGrace like this.
    Matthew 22:37
    "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind" and " Love your neighbor as you love yourself."


    A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw God's truth attacked and yet keep silent. John Calvin

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    You did not look hard enough.

    Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. (1 Cor 13:8).

    Cessationism comes from the word "cease", and cease means "to stop". Here are the Greek words (actually the same word) to match the English.

    καταργηθήσονται

    καταργηθήσεται

    καταργέω

    Strong's Concordance
    katargeó: to render inoperative, abolish
    Original Word: καταργέω
    Part of Speech: Verb
    Transliteration: katargeó
    Phonetic Spelling: (kat-arg-eh'-o)
    Short Definition: I bring to naught, sever, abolish
    Definition: (a) I make idle (inactive), make of no effect, annul, abolish, bring to naught, (b) I discharge, sever, separate from
    The context is important
    Chap 12
    1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
    1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
    1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
    1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
    1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
    1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
    1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
    1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
    1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
    1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
    .......
    1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
    1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
    1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
    1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
    1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

    Chap 13
    1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
    1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
    1Co 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
    .......
    1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
    1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

    Love never fails is the main point that Paul is stating, and he says that the other gifts might and do fail. Languages do cease and people do make false prophesies, and knowledge is forgotten in time but true love never fails.

    You are taking it out of context to say that the church today can not have any of these gifts of the Spirit.


    1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
    I believe the same Spirit is still able to work in us today.

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by JairCrawford View Post
    I am familiar with those passages. The problem is, it says "they shall". That is not the same as "they have".
    When was the last time you saw a funeral stopped?
    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    William Cranmer

    "For we love not God first, to compel Him to love again; but He loved us first, and gave His Son for us, that we might see love and love again."

    William Tyndale

    “Providence is wiser than you, and you may be confident it has suited all things better to your eternal good than you could do had you been left to your own option.” John Flavel

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    When was the last time you saw a funeral stopped?
    When was the last time you tried?

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    In scripture, it doesn't tell us the date at which the gifts will cease... but it does tell us the circumstances. Please forgive the actuall posting of the verses.. I realize it can make a post cumbersome.

    First, starting with the verse many quote...and also including the explanation of the circumstances

    1Co 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
    1Co 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
    1Co 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
    1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
    1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

    In verse 12 he describes one difference between THEN (when the gifts shall cease) and NOW (when the gifts are still needed) and that is our level of Knowledge... THEN we shall know even as we are known (of God). God knows the number of hairs on our head.. That's how we are known... and when our knowledge is full (instead of part like it is NOW) then we will know him as well as he knows us...and there will be no need for any gifts (or even preachers) to impart knowledge to us. This is evidenced also by 1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. (remember, now we see darkly)


    Another place that describes the what, why and when of at least some of the gifts and offices is Ephesians 4:11-13:
    Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    11 says 'what'
    12 says 'why'
    13 says 'how long they'll be here'

    Think about it... when we're healed we won't need healings anymore.. when we've got perfect knowledge, we don't need preachers, teachers, prophets, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, etc to teach us...because we'll already know.

    Luk_5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

    That's my two cents worth.

    Love in Jesus,
    Kelby

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by BenFTW View Post
    When was the last time you tried?
    When was the last time you tried?

    Part of gifts are healings, prophecies, raising the dead, limbs coming back, &c. Do these happen today? No. Ppl want to act like modern day profits...errr...prophets.
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    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    William Cranmer

    "For we love not God first, to compel Him to love again; but He loved us first, and gave His Son for us, that we might see love and love again."

    William Tyndale

    “Providence is wiser than you, and you may be confident it has suited all things better to your eternal good than you could do had you been left to your own option.” John Flavel

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by SovereignGrace View Post
    When was the last time you tried?

    Part of gifts are healings, prophecies, raising the dead, limbs coming back, &c. Do these happen today? No. Ppl want to act like modern day profits...errr...prophets.
    If you do not believe these things are for today, is it any wonder why you do not see it? Would have the woman who touched Jesus' garment stretched forth her hand had she not believed healing for today? Her answer too would be no, as is your answer, had she not believed. The problem then is not with their existence, but your belief. Their lack of appearance is not a matter of their existence, but a representation of our faith.
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    TMS
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    miracles and manifestations of the Holy Spirit is a touchy subject, we hear stories about Gods guiding hand and the way the Spirit has helped to save lives (they are out there if you look.) but there is a devil as well and he will work more and more as God removes His spirit from the world. So miracles or signs are not a sure sign of Gods presence we have the sure word to put our faith in today and we shouldn't need signs or miracles to believe.

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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by BenFTW View Post
    If you do not believe these things are for today, is it any wonder why you do not see it? Would have the woman who touched Jesus' garment stretched forth her hand had she not believed healing for today? Her answer too would be no, as is your answer, had she not believed. The problem then is not with their existence, but your belief. Their lack of appearance is not a matter of their existence, but a representation of our faith.
    When these signs in the bible happened, ppl saw them. They saw Dorcas raised by Peter. They saw Eutychus raised by Paul. They saw Jesus raise ppl from the dead. They saw the lame walk, the mute talk, the blind see. Prophecies spoken came to fruition.

    I see none of these today. I agree we walk by faith and not by sight. However, there are no events in today's world confirming these gifts are still alive today.
    Angela53510, PennEd, Laish and 2 others like this.
    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    William Cranmer

    "For we love not God first, to compel Him to love again; but He loved us first, and gave His Son for us, that we might see love and love again."

    William Tyndale

    “Providence is wiser than you, and you may be confident it has suited all things better to your eternal good than you could do had you been left to your own option.” John Flavel

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Quote Originally Posted by TMS View Post
    miracles and manifestations of the Holy Spirit is a touchy subject, we hear stories about Gods guiding hand and the way the Spirit has helped to save lives (they are out there if you look.) but there is a devil as well and he will work more and more as God removes His spirit from the world. So miracles or signs are not a sure sign of Gods presence we have the sure word to put our faith in today and we shouldn't need signs or miracles to believe.
    Look at all the ppl 'healed' by Benny Hinn. That shows me these sign gifts are still alive today. Sho nuff.
    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    William Cranmer

    "For we love not God first, to compel Him to love again; but He loved us first, and gave His Son for us, that we might see love and love again."

    William Tyndale

    “Providence is wiser than you, and you may be confident it has suited all things better to your eternal good than you could do had you been left to your own option.” John Flavel

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    Senior Member SovereignGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cessationism

    Come on. Who can deny this!?!??


    Laish, preacher4truth and pckts like this.
    "What the heart loves, the will chooses, and the mind justifies."

    William Cranmer

    "For we love not God first, to compel Him to love again; but He loved us first, and gave His Son for us, that we might see love and love again."

    William Tyndale

    “Providence is wiser than you, and you may be confident it has suited all things better to your eternal good than you could do had you been left to your own option.” John Flavel

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