Judges 19-21 ?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#1
3 chapters is would be a long post if i quote it, so here's a link:


how is what happened in these chapters testifying of Christ? we know it does, ((John 5:39)), so where is He in this?

a woman is killed by a tremendously wicked act that is strikingly similar to what we know about Sodom. her husband, a priest, cuts her body into pieces sends them to all the tribes, and every tribe of Israel knew when they saw her flesh that this act was so evil, that the whole town - full of 'sons of Belial' - must be destroyed. the tribe of Benjamin however defended them, and all 11 of the other tribes nearly wipe Benjamin out completely, after they inquire and God tells them Judah should go up against them first, only to have thousands from the tribe of Judah killed. and this is the town Saul is from!

i've given of course a very poor synopsis - refer the scripture itself. but there are so many questions, what does this all mean? what have you heard taught of this, and what have you understood from it?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#2
how is what happened in these chapters testifying of Christ?
Well chapter 19 begins by telling us that the sin and evil within Israel was because Christ was absent, and chapter 21 ends with the same refrain:

And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel,... In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

God was to be King of Israel (and King in Israel), but the Israelites had turned to false gods, or their own human reasoning. Even when they did go for direction to the LORD (chapter 20) it was to battle their "brethren" who of course were protecting evildoers. After that they had to rectify things in order to enable the tribe of Benjamin to survive. In those days Israel was a total spiritual disaster, and that is because God and Christ were absent.
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#3
Well chapter 19 begins by telling us that the sin and evil within Israel was because Christ was absent, and chapter 21 ends with the same refrain:

And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel,... In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

God was to be King of Israel (and King in Israel), but the Israelites had turned to false gods, or their own human reasoning. Even when they did go for direction to the LORD (chapter 20) it was to battle their "brethren" who of course were protecting evildoers. After that they had to rectify things in order to enable the tribe of Benjamin to survive. In those days Israel was a total spiritual disaster, and that is because God and Christ were absent.

God wasn't absent! --

The sons of Israel went up and wept before the Lord until evening, and inquired of the Lord, saying, “Shall we again draw near for battle against the sons of my brother Benjamin?” And the Lord said, “Go up against him.”
(Judges 20:23)

Then all the sons of Israel and all the people went up and came to Bethel and wept; thus they remained there before the Lord and fasted that day until evening. And they offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the Lord. The sons of Israel inquired of the Lord (for the ark of the covenant of God was there in those days, and Phinehas the son of Eleazar, Aaron’s son, stood before it to minister in those days), saying, “Shall I yet again go out to battle against the sons of my brother Benjamin, or shall I cease?” And the Lord said, “Go up, for tomorrow I will deliver them into your hand.”
(Judges 20:26-28)​

the ark was there. the tabernacle? the Shekinah glory of the Lord that filled it?
this was before Israel pressured Samuel for an human king, which Samuel knew was a bad idea, and tried to dissuade them. at that time God said to give them a king - because it wasn't Samuel they had rejected, but God Himself, who is their King, when they asked to have a king anointed over them.
and that king, whom God chose, was a Benjamite, from Gibeah, Saul

so '
there was no king in Israel' really means there was no human king - was that a bad thing? scripture seems to indicate that getting a human king was bad!

The LORD said to Samuel, "Listen to the voice of the people in regard to all that they say to you, for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me from being king over them."
(1 Samuel 8:7)

so God was not absent, in fact He was their King - they together went to inquire of Him, and He answered and directed them, and He was with them when they fought against Gibeah.
& it is scripture -- all scripture testifies of Christ -- so He is not absent in this story; it tells of Him. who is He in type here? what is it telling us?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#4
Well chapter 19 begins by telling us that the sin and evil within Israel was because Christ was absent, and chapter 21 ends with the same refrain:

And it came to pass in those days, when there was no king in Israel,... In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

God was to be King of Israel (and King in Israel), but the Israelites had turned to false gods, or their own human reasoning. Even when they did go for direction to the LORD (chapter 20) it was to battle their "brethren" who of course were protecting evildoers. After that they had to rectify things in order to enable the tribe of Benjamin to survive. In those days Israel was a total spiritual disaster, and that is because God and Christ were absent.
So the people came to Bethel and sat there before God until evening, and lifted up their voices and wept bitterly.They said, “Why, O Lord, God of Israel, has this come about in Israel, so that one tribe should be missing today in Israel?”
(Judges 21:2-3)

ch. 20 v. 2 calls those who came together destroy Gibeah, all of Israel, at Mizpah, '
the assembly of the people of God.'
they didn't desire to destroy Benjamin. they were heartbroken - they had come up to destroy a great wickedness, more evil than anything that had ever happened in all the land since before the exodus ((re: 19:29-30)).

And the people were sorry for Benjamin because the Lord had made a breach in the tribes of Israel.
(Judges 21:15)

this says clearly that the LORD was involved in this!

the interpretation that everyone involved in these chapters was godless, and God was not with any of them, doesn't hold water. there's no indication in the text that their outrage against the great evil in Gibeah and their going up to destroy it was anything other than the will of God: they went up to inquire of Him what to do, and He answered, and they did what He told them to do.
in other parts of Judges, we read '
there was no king in Israel, and each man did what was right in his own eyes' -- but the second part of that phrase, that each man did what was right in his own eyes, is absent from Judges 19:1 - though it is present in the final verse of ch. 21

does this mean, '
no (human) king in Israel' = good thing, but 'everyone did what was right in his own eyes' = bad thing? so destroying the sin in Gibeah, good - but the way in which they provided wives for the remnant of Benjamin, bad? they didn't ask of God what to do then ((ch. 21)), but they tried to find a way around their oath.



 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#5
how did everyone know upon seeing the pieces of the woman's body what had happened?

was this the only rape or murder to have taken place in all the land since before the exodus? since Abraham's day?
was this the first time a human body had been cut into pieces?

was there something about her flesh that made it immediately obvious what terrible thing the sons of Belial at Gibeah had done? all of Israel didn't assemble for every rape victim, or every murder.

was it just because of the extreme thing her husband did with the body? was the Levite like some kind of really skillful talk-radio host, able to rile up everyone into anger, ready to kill thousands of people because of the outrage he stirred up? should this guy run presidential campaigns? get a spot of fox news, make everyone despise whatever democratic candidate, and get out and vote for a republican? is that all this is?

what's really going on here? is this the same thing that people were beginning to do at Sodom? is this what they planned to do at Babel? did what they did do something physically singular and recognizable to the flesh of the victim, or was this just a really successful riot & hate instigation on the part of the Levite?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#6
God wasn't absent! --
Of course He was absent. What was happening in Israel was atrocity after atrocity proving that He was absent. Yes, they consulted Him in desperation in chapter 20, but in reality, God was not in their thoughts.

As to a human king, read Samuel and see that that was a violation of God's plan for Israel. Israel was always meant to be a theocracy, and ultimately the Lord Jesus Christ will be King of Israel, and King in Israel. So when Scripture says that there was no king in Israel during that time, one could legitimately read that as "there was no King in Israel".
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#7
How can you say God was absent when it's written right there Him answering the people, directing them what to do, and taking part in the overthrow of the sons of Belial?

Empty ark, Phineas just wasting his time piddling...?




Regardless, all scripture testifies of Christ. If Judges is scripture, it testifies of Him. This is written here for a reason, and Jesus commands us to search the scriptures - aren't they all profitable? If anyone thinks this is 3 chapters all written in the scroll only to inform us 'rape is bad' i'm pretty sure they are missing the point.
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#8
3 chapters is would be a long post if i quote it, so here's a link:


how is what happened in these chapters testifying of Christ? we know it does, ((John 5:39)), so where is He in this?

a woman is killed by a tremendously wicked act that is strikingly similar to what we know about Sodom. her husband, a priest, cuts her body into pieces sends them to all the tribes, and every tribe of Israel knew when they saw her flesh that this act was so evil, that the whole town - full of 'sons of Belial' - must be destroyed. the tribe of Benjamin however defended them, and all 11 of the other tribes nearly wipe Benjamin out completely, after they inquire and God tells them Judah should go up against them first, only to have thousands from the tribe of Judah killed. and this is the town Saul is from!

i've given of course a very poor synopsis - refer the scripture itself. but there are so many questions, what does this all mean? what have you heard taught of this, and what have you understood from it?
In chapter 19 of Judges we see a strong parallel between the conduct of the men of of Gibea and the conduct of the men of Sodom in Genesis 19. I think hat in seeking vengeance instead leaving the situation in God's hands, the Levite committed an error in which the tribes of Israel joined him.

In offering his concubine to the mob, the Levite committed the same error as Lot did in offering his daughters to the men of Sodom. Had the Levite asked for God's protection on both himself and his concubine we might have had a very different outcome.

While John 5:39 does indeed state that the Scriptures testify of Jesus; it should not be referred that every sinful act recorded in scripture speaks directly of Jesus. Some things are recorded in Scripture to help us recognize and avoid faulty reasoning.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#9
Just a thought - how do we know what belongs to the original Scriptures and what is a later addition, secular Israel's history etc?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#10
Just a thought - how do we know what belongs to the original Scriptures and what is a later addition, secular Israel's history etc?
does it testify of Christ or not :)

?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#11
While John 5:39 does indeed state that the Scriptures testify of Jesus; it should not be referred that every sinful act recorded in scripture speaks directly of Jesus. Some things are recorded in Scripture to help us recognize and avoid faulty reasoning.
of course not every verse and every recorded action is a description of Him. comparatively few books of scripture are meant to be taken in snippets of a few verses; a bulk is narrative.

the wickedness of Gibeah, the actions of Lot and of the priest's adulterous wife's father, the error of Benjamin - these are all parts of a larger narrative, and i believe that narrative as a whole speaks of the LORD: that is why it is recorded. the entire scripture is Yah revealed, the testimony of Messiah.

it is a difficult passage; i am seeing parts of it but it's because of the difficulty here that i've started a thread about it - i think the BDF could use fewer '
imma teach all y'all listen up' threads and more honest 'what is this??' threads; so here's a part of the Bible i find extraordinarily complex . . so i figure, what's written here is also extraordinarily amazing, if we can perceive Him in it
 

birdie

Senior Member
Sep 16, 2014
505
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#12
how is what happened in these chapters testifying of Christ? we know it does, ((John 5:39)), so where is He in this?

i've given of course a very poor synopsis - refer the scripture itself. but there are so many questions, what does this all mean? what have you heard taught of this, and what have you understood from it?
The Bible provides pictures of a given scenario again and again, so that the readers can learn more each time from the scenario. It is very good that people have noticed that the scenario you mention from Judges 19+ has similarities to the story of Sodom. That is because it is describing the same scenario but in another story form.

For example, we read about the great tribulation in Matthew 24: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Yet we read in Exodus 11:6: "And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more." Notice the similarities. A great problem is like nothing before or after. Why are the two stories similar? The answer is because they are describing the exact same thing.

It is no different in the case you are looking at from Judges 19+. The case or scenario sounds a little like Sodom. Well, that is because it is the same scenario in different story form. What both stories are a picture of is the fallen state of the congregations of the church age during the end of the church age. What happens is that the true believers are rejected as they come with their true gospel and are mistreated. In the case of the Sodom story we learn that as long as a few righteous (saved) persons are still in the congregations (the city), God says he will spare the whole place for their sakes. But the cry against the people of the place generally has come to his attention. In the end, he gets the few saved persons (represented by Lot and his family) out of there, and spiritual judgment (meaning the unsaved condition) falls on the place. Remember how in Judges, the saved man wants to go and rescue his own from the unsaved condition of backsliding (his concubine). When he goes to lodge, he specifically decides to not go to cities of the unsaved. He wants to go to an Israelite city. But alas, only an older person remembers to welcome a holy stranger. The daughters that get abused are likely a picture of those who have not been saved yet and they are yielded up as examples of how conversion to Christ is no longer taking place in the congregations. The concubine is likely a picture of those who are true believers but who are abused spiritually, rejected and mistreated spiritually, by the congregations. The true believing man ( a picture of Christ really) sends the examples of how his true believers (his concubine) he sent to the congregations where rejected and abused. By sending his concubine's body that had been rejected in twelve parts he shows that . These twelve tribes receiving a gift but it is the dead body of the true believers rejected are parable language for the body of Christ having been rejected whom God sent to them.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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#13
3 chapters is would be a long post if i quote it, so here's a link:


how is what happened in these chapters testifying of Christ? we know it does, ((John 5:39)), so where is He in this?

a woman is killed by a tremendously wicked act that is strikingly similar to what we know about Sodom. her husband, a priest, cuts her body into pieces sends them to all the tribes, and every tribe of Israel knew when they saw her flesh that this act was so evil, that the whole town - full of 'sons of Belial' - must be destroyed. the tribe of Benjamin however defended them, and all 11 of the other tribes nearly wipe Benjamin out completely, after they inquire and God tells them Judah should go up against them first, only to have thousands from the tribe of Judah killed. and this is the town Saul is from!

i've given of course a very poor synopsis - refer the scripture itself. but there are so many questions, what does this all mean? what have you heard taught of this, and what have you understood from it?

post, for this morning, i'd just like to address chapter 19. (my scattered brain :))

i do see a type of Christ in the behavior of the Levite (why no name, i wonder?) in the beginning of the chapter. his 'wife' was unfaithful, and he went to her and spoke tenderly to her, forgiving her adultery.

later in the chapter, this Levite isn't willing to give himself up for her, so anti-type?
it makes me think of the Better Priest who was to come.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#14
another parallel:

[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]
in 1 Samuel 11 Nahash, an Ammonite ruler, threatened to mutilate the people of Jabesh in bringing them under subjection. they send messengers all over Israel asking for help, and some of the messengers come to Gibeah

Now behold, Saul was coming from the field behind the oxen, and he said, “What is the matter with the people that they weep?” So they related to him the words of the men of Jabesh.
Then the Spirit of God came upon Saul mightily when he heard these words, and he became very angry.He took a yoke of oxen and cut them in pieces, and sent them throughout the territory of Israel by the hand of messengers, saying, “Whoever does not come out after Saul and after Samuel, so shall it be done to his oxen.” Then the dread of the Lord fell on the people, and they came out as one man.

(1 Samuel 11:5-7)

Saul, filled with the Holy Spirit, in indignation cuts an ox into pieces and sends the pieces out to every tribe.
surely this immediately reminded all the people of what had happened in Gibeah, where Saul had now done to oxen what the priest had done to the corpse of his wife??
and the fear of the LORD came over all the people, and again they all assembled.

after routing the Ammonites who threatened Jabesh-Gilead, the people wanted to exterminate everyone who opposed Saul as king - but Saul refuses to allow it, saying

Not a man shall be put to death this day,
for today the Lord has accomplished deliverance in Israel.

(1 Samuel 11:13)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#15
post, for this morning, i'd just like to address chapter 19. (my scattered brain :))

i do see a type of Christ in the behavior of the Levite (why no name, i wonder?) in the beginning of the chapter. his 'wife' was unfaithful, and he went to her and spoke tenderly to her, forgiving her adultery.

later in the chapter, this Levite isn't willing to give himself up for her, so anti-type?
it makes me think of the Better Priest who was to come.
yes, i think he is the major type of Christ in this story too :)

it is very interesting that he has no name - is that an indication right off the bat that he is a type, since he's not identified as an individual?
but the priest is called 'master' in 19:27
he has a wife who played the harlot against him, but he forgives her and goes out to seek her.
his servant wants him to sojourn in Jerusalem, but he says his people are not found there
he comes to his own, but his own did not receive him (John 1:11?)
the sons of Belial ((Belial is a name for Satan - this is what the people in Gibeah are literally called, though many translations say 'worthless men' or 'perverted men' - the Hebrew says 'sons of Belial' in v.22)) surround the one man in Gibeah who showed him hospitality, and they specifically want to kill the priest
the host, not the priest, responds in the way Lot had done in Sodom, offering his own daughter and/or the adulterous, estranged but re-united concubine-wife of the priest.
the sons of Satan abuse her to death.

if the priest is the type of Christ - is the woman the type of Israel or of the Church, or of both?
he is the target of the sons of Satan, but they cannot kill him. instead, what they meant to do to him, they do to his wife
((who is this man who took him in at Gibeah? how is it he can ward off all these men who surround his house? aren't these all men who can hit a hair with a rock, left handed, and never miss - who later slaughter tens of thousands of valiant warriors of Judah!?))
her body is scattered among all the people as a sign, and it causes them all immediately to righteously rise up to wipe out the wickedness in the land, even brother against brother

what are we looking at here?
what is the picture of Christ these events are painting?

:rolleyes:
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#16
Just a thought - how do we know what belongs to the original Scriptures and what is a later addition, secular Israel's history etc?
It hinges on one's understanding (or lack thereof) of Divine Inspiration.

I personally believe that the Holy Spirit superintends both the recording and the transmission of the sacred text.

I believe that God has chosen to use imperfect men in both processes; and that He allows some degree of human error to enter the text; but He does NOT allow human error or human mischief to corrupt His message.

I believe that anyone who prayerfully seeks the guidance of the Holy Spirit in understanding Scripture will be led to the same truth regardless of which translation is used.

I believe that later additions, if any exist, are under the Holy Spirit's superintendence in the same way as the original text.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#17
does it testify of Christ or not :)

?
Well, to me, many biblical places or books do not testify anything about Christ, the book Ester, for example... or most of Israel's history.

So it can be quite a subjective problem... is there anything more certain so that we can say - "this passage is inspired"?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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794
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#18
It hinges on one's understanding (or lack thereof) of Divine Inspiration.

I personally believe that the Holy Spirit superintends both the recording and the transmission of the sacred text.

I believe that God has chosen to use imperfect men in both processes; and that He allows some degree of human error to enter the text; but He does NOT allow human error or human mischief to corrupt His message.

I believe that anyone who prayerfully seeks the guidance of the Holy Spirit in understanding Scripture will be led to the same truth regardless of which translation is used.

I believe that later additions, if any exist, are under the Holy Spirit's superintendence in the same way as the original text.
What with the problem of textual variants, where we have two (or more) different texts on the same place. Are both inspired? What if they are contradicting each other?

For example in Psalms - "they pierced my hands and my feet" vs "like a lion on my hands and my feet" - where is inspiration there? Just one text? Or both? How to decide?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#19
What with the problem of textual variants, where we have two (or more) different texts on the same place. Are both inspired? What if they are contradicting each other?
Of course since you detest and despise the traditional Masoretic and Received Tests, you will always perceive problems where none exist. You even think that the corrupted Septuagint has something to contribute to our understanding of God's truth.

All you had to do was ask yourself -- do the Gospel show that the Romans pierced the hands and feet of Christ, and Thomas made this a point of contention? Then it that case "like a lion on my hands and my feet" is UTTER RUBBISH and should not even be considered.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#20
what are we looking at here? what is the picture of Christ these events are painting?
You are really trying to stretch this.

The picture of Christ which is being painted here is that without Christ, human beings become degenerate (even if they are a part of Israel).

That is the Gospel message contained in these chapters. "There was no KING JESUS in Israel" hence all the debauchery and all the atrocities and all the enmities. Thus when there is no King Jesus on the throne of a sinner's heart, he goes into the spiral described in Romans 1.