Women in Ministry

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Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#81
I have only given you the word of God. Disregard it at your peril.
I'm surprised you stoop this low, Roger. This kind of comment shuts down discussion, which is the very reason this forum exists. We discuss these things because we interpret them differently. How would it be if every time you disagreed with someone, they responded to you with this sort of comment?

How you got Junia is an apostle from this is just plain sloppy reading of the text. Again in 1 Cor 1 you take leave of reading the text and create a meaning that suits your purpose at the expense of what is simply written.

I do not know who your pastor happens to be but you are not credit to their teaching of doctrine. Truth to you apparently means that which agrees with what you want the text to say.
It is certainly possible that shrume knows Romans 16:7 from a different translation than yours; several are listed below. I learned it first from the NIV, so his reading is immediately recognizable to me. As to your comment on his pastor, have you learned everything you know from your pastor? I certainly haven't; I read far more widely than my pastor preaches, as I hope most of us do. Perhaps next time you're tempted to give such a snippy response, check your sources--and your attitude--first.

NASB Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

NIV Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

NRSV Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

WYC Greet well Andronicus and Junia, my cousins, and mine even-prisoners, which be noble among the apostles, and which were before me in Christ.

YLT salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#82
It's very unfortunate that according to most of Christianity over 50% of the church is not qualified to lead or teach simply because they were born women.
What you are doing here is disputing with God, not men. God already knows the ratio of men to women, and it is God who has forbidden women to take spiritual leadership within the assemblies (churches). So think about this very carefully instead of promoting rebellion against the Word of God and God Himself.

When Miriam the sister of Moses tried to usurp authority, she was judged very severely (and Aaron was not judged similarly). There is a lesson there for all Christian women.

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it... And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous. (Number 12:1-16).

Has God left women without any ministries? Absolutely not. Just look at the "Proverbs 31 Woman". But just like Eve, some women crave the forbidden fruit, simply because it is forbidden. And it is because of Eve that women are forbidden to preach, teach, or take the authority of elders within the assembly.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#83
Genesis 3:[SUP]16 [/SUP]Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

The men's rule over women has to do with the consequence of Adam heeding the voice of his wife for why women cannot lead in the ministry.
Enow has inserted plurals where the text has singular pronouns. The text says, "your desire shall be for your husband, but he shall rule over thee" - there are no plurals in there. It is one man and one woman, not "women and men".

I strongly believe that his view of this passage is simply incorrect. I read it as a statement of consequence, as in "He will rule over you (sinfully) as a result of your action" and not "I am placing the man over you because of what you've done".

Again, I ask the complementarians this question: Why would God, who is loving, wise and good, put now-sinful man in authority over women? That is completely inconsistent with His character. It is far more consistent to view it as the unfortunate but certain consequence. The text uses the word "curse" in reference to the snake and the ground, but not in reference to the man and the woman.


If you consider how valuable social ministry by the women can bring more converts as well as keep members coming into the church, and the invaluable ministry of raising up God fearing children in the Lord, then they really should not be coveting the role of the men's ministry in the churches.

Proverbs 22:[SUP]6 [/SUP]Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

Matthew 10:24And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Matthew 25:[SUP]40 [/SUP]And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
None of these verses is directed to women specifically. The raising up of children is a shared responsibility of both parents. Kindness to the "least of these" is desired of all believers, male and female. Nothing in Scripture supports the idea that women are better evangelists than men, or says anything about "social ministry". Most women in church leadership feel called there by the Lord, and that this issue is not about women wanting to fill those roles at all, but whether Scripture allows it.


There is a warning given in the Book of Revelation to the saints at Thaytira that suffered a woman to teach ...

Revelation 2:20Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
This is an example of completely ignoring context. Enow completely overlooks everything after the bolded part wherein the sins are identified, and focuses only on the fact that Jezebel is female and allowed to teach. A careful reading shows that the problem is with what she taught, not simply that she taught.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#84
What you are doing here is disputing with God, not men. God already knows the ratio of men to women, and it is God who has forbidden women to take spiritual leadership within the assemblies (churches). So think about this very carefully instead of promoting rebellion against the Word of God and God Himself.

When Miriam the sister of Moses tried to usurp authority, she was judged very severely (and Aaron was not judged similarly). There is a lesson there for all Christian women.

And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. And they said, Hath the LORD indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the LORD heard it... And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous. (Number 12:1-16).

Has God left women without any ministries? Absolutely not. Just look at the "Proverbs 31 Woman". But just like Eve, some women crave the forbidden fruit, simply because it is forbidden. And it is because of Eve that women are forbidden to preach, teach, or take the authority of elders within the assembly.
Ditto what I wrote in response to Roger (notuptome) and Enow. You three seem more interested in head-bashing with your interpretations of the text than with discussing. Is your dogmatic attitude convincing anyone, or just inspiring ungodly fear? For the Lord has not given us a spirit of fear, but of a sound... mind! I seem to recall mentioning that subject to you recently.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#85
You three seem more interested in head-bashing with your interpretations of the text than with discussing.
Why do you label a proper interpretation of Scripture as *head-bashing* (Q) We could also bring many other Scriptures to bear on this issue.

But if you wish to PROVE FROM SCRIPTURE that God has authorized women to do the opposite of what we have quoted, then by all means, show us the Scriptures which contradict the Scriptures given.

As you well know, God does not contradict Himself, and what is written in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is the Word of God. God has given women some very important and crucial ministries, but like I said, some women crave the forbidden fruit simply because it is forbidden.

The Bible makes it very clear that (a) the woman was created for the man, (b) the husband is the head of the wife, and that she is to be in submission to him, (c) that during worship women are to cover their heads to confirm that fact, and that the church is in submission to God, and (d) no woman may preach or teach or assume the authority of an elder within the church.

People introduce the abuse of these principles as a reason to reject them, but God will have none of it. Those who abuse God s principles must be dealt with according to Scripture, but the principles do not change.
 
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OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
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#86
Do you consider "the granting of leadership to men" a punishment upon women? Do you have a Bible verse supporting that? Further, do you recognize that the Bible teaches that Eve was deceived, and Adam sinned (there is a distinction)?

Regarding the qualifications for elders, you have placed the emphasis on "husband". Have you considered the possibility that the emphasis should be on "one" to exclude polygamists instead? What about unmarried men or widowers? Neither is the husband of one wife... are they too excluded in your interpretation?
Yes, “He is to rule over you.” Adam’s punishment was hard labor. Yes, I consider both punishments. Not only then, but in the New Testament women are to be silent during the worship assembly- which would make it hard to be a preacher in the pulpit, and elders take over doing that when the minister is out of town. “He must be able to teach.”- another qualification.

Eve was deceived because it was a trap- satan got her to admit that she knew full well that God said not to eat of it, but she is guilty nonetheless, as is Adam- who was right there with her, and ate also only seconds after she did. Deceived or not, they chose to disobey God.

Definitely it was to rule out polygamists, but no, it did not mean just that, because it also talks about how his wife and children must behave. If an elder’s wife dies, and he is no longer the husband of one wife, it doesn’t matter, he remains an elder, he already qualified and was granted the position.

The purpose being, if he can’t handle his own wife and children, how can he handle this position in the church? If his wife or children die or grow and leave his house, his experience and ability does not go with them. The Bible says if you can be trusted with small things that you can be trusted with big things.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#87
Yes, “He is to rule over you.” Adam’s punishment was hard labor. Yes, I consider both punishments. Not only then, but in the New Testament women are to be silent during the worship assembly- which would make it hard to be a preacher in the pulpit, and elders take over doing that when the minister is out of town. “He must be able to teach.”- another qualification.

Eve was deceived because it was a trap- satan got her to admit that she knew full well that God said not to eat of it, but she is guilty nonetheless, as is Adam- who was right there with her, and ate also only seconds after she did. Deceived or not, they chose to disobey God.

Definitely it was to rule out polygamists, but no, it did not mean just that, because it also talks about how his wife and children must behave. If an elder’s wife dies, and he is no longer the husband of one wife, it doesn’t matter, he remains an elder, he already qualified and was granted the position.

The purpose being, if he can’t handle his own wife and children, how can he handle this position in the church? If his wife or children die or grow and leave his house, his experience and ability does not go with them. The Bible says if you can be trusted with small things that you can be trusted with big things.
I addressed this in my response to another post, but I will repeat it here. God used the word "curse" for the snake and the ground, not for the woman or the man.

"To the woman He said, ' ... Yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he will rule over you.'" I don't read this as a decree or an expression of God's desire or will. If it were, men would be fulfilling it better by ruling women with an iron fist. Worldly men do that without Christ's help. Instead, I read it as a statement of consequence, a prophecy of certain outcome. This perspective significantly influences how I read the NT passages allegedly restricting women.

Many overlook the fact that there was one woman and one man, husband and wife. God said, "Your husband shall rule over you." There is certainly nothing in Genesis 3 to justify men (in general) ruling over women (in general), which is what you seem to conclude.

Regarding your comment on 1 Timothy, "He must be able to teach...", the pronoun is not in the Greek. "Able to teach" is in a string of desirable characteristics, only one of which references gender (husband of one wife).
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#89
I'm surprised you stoop this low, Roger. This kind of comment shuts down discussion, which is the very reason this forum exists. We discuss these things because we interpret them differently. How would it be if every time you disagreed with someone, they responded to you with this sort of comment?
Paul encouraged Timothy not to engage in pointless arguments.

2Ti 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
It is certainly possible that shrume knows Romans 16:7 from a different translation than yours; several are listed below. I learned it first from the NIV, so his reading is immediately recognizable to me. As to your comment on his pastor, have you learned everything you know from your pastor? I certainly haven't; I read far more widely than my pastor preaches, as I hope most of us do. Perhaps next time you're tempted to give such a snippy response, check your sources--and your attitude--first.

NASB Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

NIV Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

NRSV Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives who were in prison with me; they are prominent among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

WYC Greet well Andronicus and Junia, my cousins, and mine even-prisoners, which be noble among the apostles, and which were before me in Christ.

YLT salute Andronicus and Junias, my kindred, and my fellow-captives, who are of note among the apostles, who also have been in Christ before me.
All say the same thing and none indicate that Junias was anything more than a disciple who was of note in the apostles estimation.

I am not going to persuade you to give up women pastors so I leave you to your reward with God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#90
Dec 12, 2013
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#91
So when Men abdicate their spiritual authority God just stops?
I repeat what I said....And is your God so weak that he cannot chose someone else........?

Originally Posted by dcontroversal
There is no moment or reason where the end justifies the means....

I have yet reserved unto myself 7000 that have not bowed the knees to BAAL
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#92
Paul encouraged Timothy not to engage in pointless arguments.
Since you seem to consider this a pointless argument, why do you engage at all? I can respect someone who chooses to bow out, but continuing with this sort of snipe is hypocritical.


All say the same thing and none indicate that Junias was anything more than a disciple who was of note in the apostles estimation.
Set aside for the moment the question of how Romans 16:7 is best translated, and consider the following statements:

"Babe Ruth was outstanding among baseball players."
"Cassius Clay was outstanding among boxers."
"Lincoln was outstanding among American presidents."
"Churchill was outstanding among leaders."

Do you read these statements to mean that each person was merely noteworthy in the eyes of a group in which he did not himself belong? Is not the plain sense of the statement that Babe Ruth was himself a baseball player who was noteworthy as a baseball player? Does this really "not say anything more" than what the other translations say?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#93
Since you seem to consider this a pointless argument, why do you engage at all? I can respect someone who chooses to bow out, but continuing with this sort of snipe is hypocritical.
I'm merely demonstrating that your argument is against the word of God and any continuing effort to change what Gods word has already established as Gods order is pointless.
Set aside for the moment the question of how Romans 16:7 is best translated, and consider the following statements:

"Babe Ruth was outstanding among baseball players."
"Cassius Clay was outstanding among boxers."
"Lincoln was outstanding among American presidents."
"Churchill was outstanding among leaders."

Do you read these statements to mean that each person was merely noteworthy in the eyes of a group in which he did not himself belong? Is not the plain sense of the statement that Babe Ruth was himself a baseball player who was noteworthy as a baseball player? Does this really "not say anything more" than what the other translations say?
You do not like what the word of God has simply stated so you go about to change it.

All the versions translate the verse the same way. It just does not fit your theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#94
stonesoffire has spoken. Chuck out the bibles! Relax friend! Just joking! :D


In all seriousness: I see the Scriptures clearly forbid women from being pastors, I have checked "the greek" and it is in ALL MANUSCRIPTS we have. So it is quite clear.

But on a practical level I know of a story where some men were sent as missionaries to an island and they were EATEN, yes. Regardless of the horrible fate of the men, their wives went there and evangelized these people. Surely that had to include teaching which is specifically forbidden 1 Timothy 2:12?
But are we to say that what those women did was WRONG? That evangelizing those people was WRONG? I dare not say so.

I am extremely conflicted on this subject. On one hand I see the bible clearly forbid it, yet on one hand I have experience and have heard of others' experiences where God's work has been done through women.

I hope no one gets offended at my opinion! It is just that.
I just echoed what Jesus said. :) No gender in the spirit. Now, if one is not ministering in the Spirit? I don't want to listen, be it woman or man.

Got a problem with it? ;)
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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#95
I just echoed what Jesus said. :) No gender in the spirit. Now, if one is not ministering in the Spirit? I don't want to listen, be it woman or man.

Got a problem with it? ;)
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The word has an issue.

Your concept of Holy Spirit ministry is somewhat in conflict with mainstream theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#96
Don't concern yourself about offending. I'm not worthy of offense. I'm only offended when the Lord is offended and you did not approach that in your post.

I respect Angela and was surprised she wrote what she wrote on Gal 3:28. Her scholarship is usually much better but she went out of context to proof text. I understand that many women have a vested bias in this subject.

You claim a love of the Hebrew so you should know that Hebrew teaching is that the man leads in things spiritual. There is no indication that anything was changed in this respect in the NT Gentile church. Women have been used of God but as an exception not as a rule.

Eph 4:11 God gifts or appoints pastors in the church. The church is in such a state of declension that it is no wonder women are striving to enter ministry. Sign of the times which the Lord said would come.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
My personal opinion would be that I would prefer a man to lead. But, I'm not going to deny that women can minister "in the Spirit" as well as a man.

Here is perhaps a difference in our understanding Roger? I am looking for the anointing which Holy Spirit chooses to rest on, not men. For clarity, I mean not man choosing who to speak.

You are looking to law? Is this so? If I'm wrong, then please advise how.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#97
2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

The word has an issue.

Your concept of Holy Spirit ministry is somewhat in conflict with mainstream theology.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
I just saw this so I guess my latest post is answered. Mainstream theology...this surprises me too here Roger, because we do agree on the importance of grace. Grace too includes the power of Holy Spirit working in ones life.

But, you are cessationist and my testimony rankles your belief. I understand.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#98
Boy, you must lie awake at night trying to figure out ways to s-t-r-e-t-c-h verses into impossible meanings.
I liked your post Willie but on reflecting, it could be that beastslayer, is referring to the light? Or the glory of the presence being on both Adam and Eve before the fall?

But, I could be far out in left field too.

No comment from notuptome please. ;)
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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#99
Thanks judge. You are on the same level as the Pharisees.

Honor the word of God without respect to gender.

If you want a woman pastor help yourself. Just do not expect me to join you.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Shrume is far from being a Pharisee.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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I would just like to know how he knows the Lord is offended.....

Do you think the Lord is offended when there are those who add their own works to His blood sacrifice?

Perhaps the same way then?