Women in Ministry

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

jellyroll123

Junior Member
Oct 11, 2015
10
0
0
#1
[FONT=&quot]Since we have gone to an elder led way of doing things, my church has had some hurt feelings. Mostly some of the ladies do not understand why women cannot be elders. I was one of those ladies. In my research, I have found nothing to support women as elders. As much as I don't like that, I can't argue.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Can you show me in scripture where God wants women as elders? I know Deborah led Israel but what does that mean? Was she supposed to? Jesus had many disciples that were women, and deacons can be women. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This has stirred up some hurt feelings. Can you help me to see where women are to be elders? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]All the research I do for both for and against leads my heart to only men as elders. I don't like it, or understand it, but I have come to accept it. What that means is, men are elders. What that doesn't mean is, it is a dictatorship, men don't have to listen to women, women are not equals, men can be rude or demeaning to women. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I can't say women should be elders just because it feels right to me. God's word is right and it doesn't matter what I feel.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Please help me understand it.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Thanks![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Christine[/FONT]
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,447
13,289
113
#2
Welcome, Jellyroll123!
As this is your first post, you are excused for opening up a can of worms that has been discussed to death here. :)

There is no Scripture directly stating that women can, may, or should be elders. Some, including myself, will claim that Scripture does allow them to be, while others will argue the opposite view. We all use Scripture, but interpret certain passages differently.

My congregation's elders are examining this issue. I have my view, but I won't break fellowship over this. What I call for is that regardless of the decision, that the elders be able to articulate their reasons for it, and that those reasons be soundly biblical. Presently, it's just an unwritten rule, which to me is simply unacceptable.

I may post more later; hopefully you learn more from the responses than just "people get heated over this". :)
 

mar09

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2014
4,927
1,259
113
#3
Hi jellyroll,

Thanks for the thread, and welcome to cc! I have just logged and in and your title caught my attention. And altho dino said the topic has been discussed to death in other threads, it seems i cannot catch up with the reads. I believe many other women feel what you do abt the matter, and altho i have no desire nor talents to be a deacon if that was possible for women, many want to understand it, even me.

Misssed to press Reply with quote, but here

I can't say women should be elders just because it feels right to me. God's word is right and it doesn't matter what I feel.

So many times, people want things to be because it feels right to them, but true, it is Thus saith the Lord that truly matters. If we hurt, it is for a reason, and God uses that also for good, even as we try to ask and understand something women thru the ages most probably wondered about and studied. Btw, i just noticed, if u scroll down, there is a thread, actually threads w/ similar titles below, w/ last post in 2014=). It might, or might not answer your questions.

Hope to see you more in the forums.
 

jellyroll123

Junior Member
Oct 11, 2015
10
0
0
#4
It is a can of worms! I know. I have not seen any biblical proof of women as elders. I think we should go back to the old way we ran the church. One pastor and deacons. I also feel like women are CALLED to be preachers and leaders so that conflicts me.
I am OK with heated discussion, but I need proof from the bible, not just feelings. I feel like I could school men on the bible but is that wrong? I wouldn't think getting the word out any way possible would be bad. As long as the lost hear it from SOMEONE.
Thanks!
Chris
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
12
0
#5
It is a can of worms! I know. I have not seen any biblical proof of women as elders. I think we should go back to the old way we ran the church. One pastor and deacons. I also feel like women are CALLED to be preachers and leaders so that conflicts me.
I am OK with heated discussion, but I need proof from the bible, not just feelings. I feel like I could school men on the bible but is that wrong? I wouldn't think getting the word out any way possible would be bad. As long as the lost hear it from SOMEONE.
Thanks!
Chris
Are the current elders also serving as deacons?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#6
It is a can of worms! I know. I have not seen any biblical proof of women as elders. I think we should go back to the old way we ran the church. One pastor and deacons. I also feel like women are CALLED to be preachers and leaders so that conflicts me.
I am OK with heated discussion, but I need proof from the bible, not just feelings. I feel like I could school men on the bible but is that wrong? I wouldn't think getting the word out any way possible would be bad. As long as the lost hear it from SOMEONE.
Thanks!
Chris
I think that Bible is absolutely clear that man is a head of a family and his wife should be submitted to him.

If we agree on that, how can a woman be a leader in the church, when this church has also her husband as its member?
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
12
0
#7
I think that Bible is absolutely clear that man is a head of a family and his wife should be submitted to him.

If we agree on that, how can a woman be a leader in the church, when this church has also her husband as its member?
Eve was not following Adam she was walking beside him.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#8
Eve was not following Adam she was walking beside him.
So? Its quite irrelevant for some thousands of years now.

Also, she was naked all the time. Does that mean that also today... ? Probably not. We must consider time and context.
 

jellyroll123

Junior Member
Oct 11, 2015
10
0
0
#9
Women do not need to be submissive to other men just her husband. Also, I think what the bible also clearly states is that man is to treat his wife with love and respect. Both are equal, both are just as important as the other. We have deacon women. We now have 3 elders who are men and the woman who I also consider elders are feeling hurt. I will not fight it. I just want to understand why people who support women as elders get their support from the bible. I know there are women called to minister. I just don't understand why a solid Christian woman isn't allowed to be an elder. Deborah was the leader of Isreal! She was a judge. Doesn't that show God called women as leaders? She ruled both men and women and God put here right in that spot!
 

jellyroll123

Junior Member
Oct 11, 2015
10
0
0
#10
We have women deacons. Paul had women deacons too. Phoebe was one.
I don't want to get hung up on words just like we are told not to do. Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God's presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them. Timothy 2:14
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
12
0
#11
So? Its quite irrelevant for some thousands of years now.

Also, she was naked all the time. Does that mean that also today... ? Probably not. We must consider time and context.
She was never naked as in nude. Chew on that one a while.
 
Nov 6, 2017
674
12
0
#12
We have women deacons. Paul had women deacons too. Phoebe was one.
I don't want to get hung up on words just like we are told not to do. Remind everyone about these things, and command them in God's presence to stop fighting over words. Such arguments are useless, and they can ruin those who hear them. Timothy 2:14
Good I am glad you mentioned that. deacon/servant mean the same thing.
 

jellyroll123

Junior Member
Oct 11, 2015
10
0
0
#13
Welcome, Jellyroll123!
As this is your first post, you are excused for opening up a can of worms that has been discussed to death here. :)

There is no Scripture directly stating that women can, may, or should be elders. Some, including myself, will claim that Scripture does allow them to be, while others will argue the opposite view. We all use Scripture, but interpret certain passages differently.

My congregation's elders are examining this issue. I have my view, but I won't break fellowship over this. What I call for is that regardless of the decision, that the elders be able to articulate their reasons for it, and that those reasons be soundly biblical. Presently, it's just an unwritten rule, which to me is simply unacceptable.

I may post more later; hopefully you learn more from the responses than just "people get heated over this". :)



Please tell me where in scripture you feel leads to women as elders? That is what I need to see!
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#14
A woman can be in any office that the Lord appoints for her. Same as a man.

Selah
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#15
Deborah was a judge in Israel. The book of Judges is a book of defeat. Israel was in a state of declension.

The modern church is probably not much better than Israel at that time. Apostasy and declension are evident.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,023
12,708
113
#17
Since we have gone to an elder led way of doing things, my church has had some hurt feelings. Mostly some of the ladies do not understand why women cannot be elders. I was one of those ladies. In my research, I have found nothing to support women as elders. As much as I don't like that, I can't argue.

Well Christine, good for you. You are one of the few women who looked for the truth and found it, even though it was distasteful. This does not mean that women must be devoid of Christian ministries. They simply cannot preach, teach, or have authority similar to elders within the churches.

Scripture regarding this matter is crystal clear. Women are to keep silence in the churches, and this goes all the way back to the fact that Eve was deceived and brought this ruling upon all women.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,778
2,934
113
#18
I have written extensively on this, using the Greek. I am a pastor, and I have been a chaplain. I preach and teach in my church, although I am not an elder. We have women elders, and they do a fine job.

I think you are looking for something that positively says women can be elders. I don't think there is anything like that. However, in 1 Timothy 3, there is a problem with the translations.

"Likewise also their wives must be dignified, not slanderous, temperate, faithful in every respect." 1 Tim. 3:11 NET

The issue causing the problem, is that the same word for "wife" can also be "woman" in Greek. That is the word gunaikas, or
γυναῖκας. Here is the Greek:

"
γυναῖκας ὡσαύτως σεμνάς, μὴ διαβόλους, νηφαλίους, πιστὰς ἐν πᾶσιν." 1 Tim. 3:11 Greek

There is no pronoun "their" in the passage at all. It just says, "women, like wise," or "wives, likewise."

So, here is another way you can say it:

"
In the same way, the womenare to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything." 1 Tim. 3:11 NIV

So, is Timothy talking to women separately who are elders/deacons, or is he talking to "wives"? I think for me, the fact that Paul talks about ministry with women, that he mentioned Prisca's name twice before her husband Apollo, meaning she was more important, and the fact that the Bible talks about women in authority like Deborah, Esther who saved her people, thus preserving the line from which the Messiah would come, the way Matthew, a Jew, includes 4 women in his genealogy of Jesus, the prophetic daughters of Phillip (Acts 21:9) and big exegetical issues with verses like 1 Tim. 2:12 means that God uses anyone who is willing, for ministry, and that includes being elders.

"
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says." 1 Cor. 14:34

Here is another verse which is wrongly interpreted. Many people think the above verse confirms women should not speak in church, as the law says. But what law? There is no such law. So, is Paul quoting someone, with reference to women who were out of hand? Because, there simply is no such law, and I believe that Paul was inspired. But, since Corinthians was a series of letters Paul wrote to the church in Corinth,replying to some issues there, it is most possible Paul was quoting them, and then showing them that women who were disturbing the congregation, maybe shouting out, needed to go home to ask their husbands. Perhaps he was even being sarcastic? "As the law says" is really a sign that something else is going on here.

And do remember, women were largely uneducated, and the rich women were sheltered, and in Corinth, which was a port town, many of the poorer women may have been temple prositutes. In fact, to "corinthianize" meant to be promiscuous. So, those women, certainly were not capable of leading a congregation, at least in the early years after the church was started.

As an eglatarian, I have read many books, and written papers on women in ministry with my viewpoint being that women can most certainly be in ministry. When Paul wrote Gal. 3:28, he wanted to make it clear that neither genes nor social standing make one better in the Kingdom of God.

"
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28


And as for those people who get into this fixed order, that men are above women, it is really grasping at straws, considering that order was established after the Fall. Since Christ redeemed us from the fall, clearly, even a Gentile, woman slave was as good as any male with impeccable credentials, there is no such order for ministry. (Of course, women should submit to their husbands!)


PS If you want me to dig out my information on 1 Tim. 2:12, let me know.

 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#19
Really? You won't find any Scripture to support this, but plenty of human reasoning.
Theres no gender in the Spirit. If God calls a woman to,pastor a church, then He will anoint her for the role. Same as with a man.

But, the problem with you and I? Different streams. Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles.

These things in the OT are for teaching. Instruction. They reveal Jesus and His body, even. If one has eyes opened.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,778
2,934
113
#20
[/FONT][/COLOR]Well Christine, good for you. You are one of the few women who looked for the truth and found it, even though it was distasteful. This does not mean that women must be devoid of Christian ministries. They simply cannot preach, teach, or have authority similar to elders within the churches.

Scripture regarding this matter is crystal clear. Women are to keep silence in the churches, and this goes all the way back to the fact that Eve was deceived and brought this ruling upon all women.

So, I guess men should not be church leaders, since Romans says, sin entered through Adam? And Adam's sin brought this on all men?

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinnedTo be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come." Romans 5:12-14
Try and use the whole Bible, instead of just throwing things in out of context. Eve was not even there when God told Adam not to eat of the Tree. She had not been created. So, Adam certainly should take the blame for not explaining things to her clearly, and directly disobeying a command of God, who told him not to eat of the Tree.