Grace alone or grace plus works?

[7seasrekeyed]

i believe the devil put the pope there to deceive the nations into thinking its the golden standard for christianity. it defines christianity according to many nonbelievers today.

aint it strange how they are now bringing this ecumenical movement? its not a coincidence. the devil is using them guys to bring about a one world religion. thats why its all connected and coming together.

there is a biblical precedent for God allowing people to have what they want

for example, King Saul. God did not want Israel to be like the other nations and have a king. they insisted and He said 'okey dokey'...it went south and Israel was never what God intended. The history of Israel and their kings is the history of God allowing people to have what they want.

there are numerous examples of the same throughout both testaments

in the New Testament, we are told that God allows people to fall away, follow after false teachers, amass teachers who scratch their itching ears etc

God does not plan evil, nor does he cause it. He does allow it; people pursue their own ends and receive the rewards.

The Bible does say that God raises up one kingdom and puts down another.

However, we have to remember that scripture does not contradict itself and so we have to have the 'big picture' understanding and see that God knows the beginning from the end (also in the Bible) and so He knows what will happen before it does.

the devil's main tool is deception and he wields it with great success

no, I would agree there is no coincidence, but there is always a spiritual battle

 

[7seasrekeyed]

I could start the Saved by Grace through Faith unto good works thread... missed you 7seas..

oh yes

the sequel LOL!

you missed me? good thing I was sitting down!

 

[Laish]

why Do you want to add works? Paul said saved by grace through faith apart from works. So why add to Paul’s words?

I think the post was tongue in cheek. Not a statement about doctrine.But a light hearted one about some threads in general.
Blessings
Bill

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I think the post was tongue in cheek. Not a statement about doctrine.But a light hearted one about some threads in general.
Blessings
Bill

Could be.. But it could be taken other ways by people. So is dangerous..

 

[loveme1]

why Do you want to add works? Paul said saved by grace through faith apart from works. So why add to Paul’s words?

[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"]Ephesians 2:8-10King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


have I really added or have I micro sized for the title of my would be thread?



Romans 3




27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it isone God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.



[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


What deeds do you think Paul is referring to.. I would suggest you read from verse 1 though I will not post it all..





We are Justified by Faith.. fact. Let us consider the Law of Faith a little more than Not by works of Righteousness which we have done.. considering even verse 8 of the shame chapter tells us that we who have Believed should be careful to maintain good works.. etc..



Titus 3

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

 

[Laish]

[TABLE="class: passage-cols"]
[TR]
[TD="class: passage-col col-xs-12 first last"]Ephesians 2:8-10King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


have I really added or have I micro sized for the title of my would be thread?



Romans 3




27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30Seeing it isone God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.



[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


What deeds do you think Paul is referring to.. I would suggest you read from verse 1 though I will not post it all..





We are Justified by Faith.. fact. Let us consider the Law of Faith a little more than Not by works of Righteousness which we have done.. considering even verse 8 of the shame chapter tells us that we who have Believed should be careful to maintain good works.. etc..



Titus 3

3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

I believe His point is what saves us . Yes naturally a visible manifestation of our salvation no matter how small should be apparent. That is not what is being discussed. What most having a different opinion have expressed is that the good works proceed salvation.
Blessings
Bill

 

[preacher4truth]

i believe the devil put the pope there to deceive the nations into thinking its the golden standard for christianity. it defines christianity according to many nonbelievers today.

aint it strange how they are now bringing this ecumenical movement? its not a coincidence. the devil is using them guys to bring about a one world religion. thats why its all connected and coming together.

Well, thank God for those who opposed Rome prior to the Reformation, for the Reformation and Reformed doctrine. Many others teachings are close to Rome in ways they have not considered, generally those who are anti-Reformed and/or Arminian/Pelagian or mistakenly think they're of none of those camps.

 

[PennEd]

I'm truly not sure why this even remains a question for Christians.

Who among us have been able to crucify the flesh before being born again?
Who among us have been able to tear down strongholds pre-conversion?

Since we know we couldn't, and Scripture tells us exactly that, then how can OUR works, and our repentance of sin, even be considered as necessary for salvation?

No. The Lord has given us new Life, by the faith, HE gave us to believe in His beautifully indescribable, blessed Son!

To attribute any of YOUR work to your salvation is a great offense to God.

You want to talk about works, and how we should conduct ourselves post conversion, that's wonderful! But never associate those works and conduct to your salvation.
We are Children of God. Let's act like it and love one another, and spread His simple Gospel Message.

 

[loveme1]

I believe His point is what saves us . Yes naturally a visible manifestation of our salvation no matter how small should be apparent. That is not what is being discussed. What most having a different opinion have expressed is that the good works proceed salvation.
Blessings
Bill

Friend my post would not of been written here if there was not an accusation made that I have addressed....my post about starting the thread titled was light and in response to a post.. I think most knew this already.. so I think if you read my post you will see I’m not proposing works to be saved.. I was saved and justified by GOD’s Grace through Faith when I Believed.. so why would I propose anything other than that.. GOD would soon abase and remind me.. knock me off my perch.. and Rightly so.. but to Grow in Grace and knowledge of Christ we share Christ’s Testimony.. water for our seed and may GOD give increase.. Faith that work by love all the way into the Kingdom of GOD by the Kings merit.. not our own.. the King states we are to obey Him.. and that is to share in His Glory and Victory not to achieve it..

GOD Bless..

 

[loveme1]

I'm truly not sure why this even remains a question for Christians.

Who among us have been able to crucify the flesh before being born again?
Who among us have been able to tear down strongholds pre-conversion?

Since we know we couldn't, and Scripture tells us exactly that, then how can OUR works, and our repentance of sin, even be considered as necessary for salvation?

No. The Lord has given us new Life, by the faith, HE gave us to believe in His beautifully indescribable, blessed Son!

To attribute any of YOUR work to your salvation is a great offense to God.

You want to talk about works, and how we should conduct ourselves post conversion, that's wonderful! But never associate those works and conduct to your salvation.
We are Children of God. Let's act like it and love one another, and spread His simple Gospel Message.

Love this post.. thank you for sharing.

All Glory and Praise to GOD and our Lord and Saviour.

 

[Snoozy]

Well, thank God for those who opposed Rome prior to the Reformation, for the Reformation and Reformed doctrine. Many others teachings are close to Rome in ways they have not considered, generally those who are anti-Reformed and/or Arminian/Pelagian or mistakenly think they're of none of those camps.

i hope thats not a jab at me for saying im none of those camps. we dont roll like that.

im sorry i just cant with a clear conscience agree with any of those systems 100% when i compare them to scriptures. is it possible im wrong? yes but i just said how i honestly feel about it.

im not for roman catholicism at all.

 

[Laish]

That’s cool . I am a bit slow at times . I was mistaken about what you meant my bad ,and apologies.
Blessings
Bill

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Friend my post would not of been written here if there was not an accusation made that I have addressed....my post about starting the thread titled was light and in response to a post.. I think most knew this already.. so I think if you read my post you will see I’m not proposing works to be saved.. I was saved and justified by GOD’s Grace through Faith when I Believed.. so why would I propose anything other than that.. GOD would soon abase and remind me.. knock me off my perch.. and Rightly so.. but to Grow in Grace and knowledge of Christ we share Christ’s Testimony.. water for our seed and may GOD give increase.. Faith that work by love all the way into the Kingdom of GOD by the Kings merit.. not our own.. the King states we are to obey Him.. and that is to share in His Glory and Victory not to achieve it..

GOD Bless..

I've stayed out of the forums for a couple of days (apart from personal obligations and life in general) but noticed since I think it was Wednesday, there seems to be an upswing in people misconstruing what others write

I think that should stay between the parties involved though, because when others jump in, the confusion gets worse

you take note also, that certain members here will 'run' to their friends and ask them to help and abandon all hope when that occurs LOL!..ie leave the thread cause you will be ganged up on

that is the main reason I stay out of threads where certain members congregate. it's like chumming the waters...

 

[7seasrekeyed]

That’s cool . I am a bit slow at times . I was mistaken about what you meant my bad ,and apologies.
Blessings
Bill

I did not mean you in my post about ganging up on people. just wanted to be clear (post 213)

 

[loveme1]

That’s cool . I am a bit slow at times . I was mistaken about what you meant my bad ,and apologies.
Blessings
Bill

All is well... my intent is never to be a danger.. I lack clarity in my writing but I hope it shows some heart felt..

 

[Laish]

All is well... my intent is never to be a danger.. I lack clarity in my writing but I hope it shows some heart felt..

Lol welcome to the club try adding bad spelling that one helps me out tons .
Blessings
Bill

 

[loveme1]

Lol welcome to the club try adding bad spelling that one helps me out tons .
Blessings
Bill

No joke but my typing stutters.. hehe..

 

[preacher4truth]

i hope thats not a jab at me for saying im none of those camps. we dont roll like that.

im sorry i just cant with a clear conscience agree with any of those systems 100% when i compare them to scriptures. is it possible im wrong? yes but i just said how i honestly feel about it.

im not for roman catholicism at all.

I'm not taking a jab at you anymore than you're taking one at me with your posts and feelings about Reformed theology.

...unless you are. Then it's WAR!!!!!!

 

[Depleted]

The question now is "when"?

"When" does this faith/works become salvation? At what point does the faith/works manifest itself into the forgiveness of sins? Surely this forgiveness does not happen over time but at a point. Without knowing this point how can anyone know they are saved?

I would not want you riding in the car with me when I'm lost. I'd be asking if I should turn left or right, and your answer would be "hotdog!"

The question is never "when," since the answer is the eternal, omniscient, omnipotent time-and-space God! God is outside of "when," and yet in "when." He is the creator of "when."

When did God create? He's God! He's eternal. He has always known everything and always able to do what HE wants "when!"

Do you think there was a time "when" God did not know creating earth and then creating Adam and Eve was going to hold problems? Do you think there was a time when he did not know what would happen next? Do you think anything ever happened without his sovereignness smothering everything? There is no WHEN! God saved before he first spoke the words "Let there be." He saved once! The name of that salvation is Jesus, who died on a cross painfully for all the Lord planned to save. And that saved worked for Adam and Eve because they took his word for it way back when. And it worked for Job, Abraham, Moses, David, Hosea, etc. And it has worked for Peter, Bartholomew, Jude, and the rest of the guys. And it has worked for Augustine, Constantine, Huss, Luther, Calvin, Henry, Ten Boom, and quite a few people on this site.

God is the When. He is the Savior. He has always been the Savior and will always be the Savior.

If you'd get over your obsession of what you can do, maybe you can finally get beyond "when."

We do not need to know when we are saved. We should know if the Lord saved us though.

It beats "hotdogs" for an answer. It even beats "left" or "right."

 

[loveme1]

I did not mean you in my post about ganging up on people. just wanted to be clear (post 213)

Some drag beef betweeen threads.. I was accused.. shared Scripture and now silence.. but let me only drag peace and love around it is much lighter... Peaceful retreats are a must .. The i’m right in me died and GOD is always right arrived.. and our intent should be just that.. relay GOD’s Truth with love and patience.. edified much..