Grace alone or grace plus works?

[Mercy4u]

That's a really weird philosophy. I wonder how you came by it?

Is this verse worded incorrectly?;
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Should it have been re-worded to say that whosoever Christ believes in should not perish, but have everlasting life???

That is how I see your theology from what I have read?

The elect are chosen by God and who He 'believes' in.

 

[Mercy4u]

Here's the thing...the faith that justifies us, is not even our faith, but the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Jesus Christ justifies the believer and the evidence of that faith is the cross.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Truth. We are saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. Because we waver like the leaves of a tree. And could possibly have a dead faith like James mentions.

Thank the Lord, that HE is faithful.

We are saved/sealed the moment we believe. Jesus Christ is faithful to keep us saved, even if we fail and fail miserably.

 

[OneFaith]

God grants grace to those who obey Him. Their obedience does not earn it, but since He chooses who to give it to, or not give it to, He chooses to give it to those who are trying to obey Him. Obedience cannot earn it, therefore it has to be a gift. But He does not give it to those who are not trying to obey Him. So does obedience play a role in salvation? Only in that God refuses to give it to those who do not try to obey Him.

It is all His choice and effort whether to save us or not, and He chooses those who please Him with obedience. After all, that is the meaning of life- our purpose, and the reason God created us, was for His good pleasure. So what happens to those who do not fulfill their purpose? They get discarded, God only saves those who please Him- who fulfill the purpose of why He made us in the first place.

 

[Zi]

This is phenomenal! Great explanation.

God grants grace to those who obey Him. Their obedience does not earn it, but since He chooses who to give it to, or not give it to, He chooses to give it to those who are trying to obey Him. Obedience cannot earn it, therefore it has to be a gift. But He does not give it to those who are not trying to obey Him. So does obedience play a role in salvation? Only in that God refuses to give it to those who do not try to obey Him.

It is all His choice and effort whether to save us or not, and He chooses those who please Him with obedience. After all, that is the meaning of life- our purpose, and the reason God created us, was for His good pleasure. So what happens to those who do not fulfill their purpose? They get discarded, God only saves those who please Him- who fulfill the purpose of why He made us in the first place.

 

[UnderGrace]

God only saves those who are not trying to save themselves.

You cannot enter the gate if your eyes are on yourself

Jesus was obedient and only Him

God grants grace to those who obey Him. Their obedience does not earn it, but since He chooses who to give it to, or not give it to, He chooses to give it to those who are trying to obey Him. Obedience cannot earn it, therefore it has to be a gift. But He does not give it to those who are not trying to obey Him. So does obedience play a role in salvation? Only in that God refuses to give it to those who do not try to obey Him.

It is all His choice and effort whether to save us or not, and He chooses those who please Him with obedience. After all, that is the meaning of life- our purpose, and the reason God created us, was for His good pleasure. So what happens to those who do not fulfill their purpose? They get discarded, God only saves those who please Him- who fulfill the purpose of why He made us in the first place.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God grants grace to those who obey Him. Their obedience does not earn it, but since He chooses who to give it to, or not give it to, He chooses to give it to those who are trying to obey Him. Obedience cannot earn it, therefore it has to be a gift. But He does not give it to those who are not trying to obey Him. So does obedience play a role in salvation? Only in that God refuses to give it to those who do not try to obey Him.

It is all His choice and effort whether to save us or not, and He chooses those who please Him with obedience. After all, that is the meaning of life- our purpose, and the reason God created us, was for His good pleasure. So what happens to those who do not fulfill their purpose? They get discarded, God only saves those who please Him- who fulfill the purpose of why He made us in the first place.

This is actually quite sad. And scary, but sadly, so many have bought into this I feel many will be lost.

It shows that we are saved because we TRY of our OWN power to OBEY HIM, If we try hard enough God will just feel sorry for us, and even though we fail to live up to his standard. He will save us anyway, because we try really really hard.

This is human thinking Not Godly thinking. You can try all you want,. You will still fail. Thats why God said, He has determined all under sin that all might be made the righteousness of God IN and THROUGH him.

The people that obey him are those saved by him, The people who are obedient are those who have been born again, Given the spirit, Know first hand his love and forgiveness.

Obedience comes as a result of salvation, Not as a lets try as hard as we can and if we tru really really hard God will save us.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

God only saves those who are not trying to save themselves.

You cannot enter the gate if your eyes are on yourself

Jesus was obedient and only Him

Amen, The Pharisee tried really really hard to be obedient, and thought his obedience made him righteous.

The tax collector knew he was a sinner and not worthy of even Gods mercy, so he got on his knees and begged God for mercy.

Who went home justified? The one who tried to save himself or the one who knew he was lost with no hope?

 

[Hizikyah]

Amen, The Pharisee tried really really hard to be obedient, and thought his obedience made him righteous.

The tax collector knew he was a sinner and not worthy of even Gods mercy, so he got on his knees and begged God for mercy.

Who went home justified? The one who tried to save himself or the one who knew he was lost with no hope?

NO the pharisees did not try to be obedient;

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

NO the pharisees did not try to be obedient;

Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

You calling Paul a liar?

Phil 3: [FONT=&quot]though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot]6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

I did say they WERE righteous. I said they tried their best. To be that way.

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]No one is sinless, all have sinned and fall short. Even you and I. It does not mean many people tried their best to be that way. Even if it was a watered down perverted way, they still tried. And still by their obedience thought they were ok with God because of their righteousness. [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luke 8:21, “And He answering, said to them, “My mother and My brothers are those who are hearing the Word of Yah and doing it.”

Why are they doing it? To gain or maintain salvation, or because they have salvation?

 

[Hizikyah]

Why are they doing it? To gain or maintain salvation, or because they have salvation?

Each has differnt motivations. All I can spak to is myself, I seek His Commands because it is right, it is true love, I want to make YHWH pleased with me because transgression of them is sin, He gave me mercy/a new life and heart therefore I want to follow Him in truth.

Yet.... as soon as poeple say obedience to His Commands is right they get accused of "pharisee" "lawyer" "sinless perfectionist" "legalist" etc.

This is total nonsense, it is not a problem with those who seek obedience but rebellion in the hearts of those who accuse, as they are showing their heart by saying these things. Now if one says they keep the commands to be saved by their own level of obedience this onw whould also show his heart in seeking to be self justified.

It seems the battle cry of the modern mainstream religion to say the worst thing one can do is obey.

 

[Hizikyah]

NO the pharisees did not try to be obedient;

Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."

You calling Paul a liar?

Phil 3: though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

I did say they WERE righteous. I said they tried their best. To be that way.

No one is sinless, all have sinned and fall short. Even you and I. It does not mean many people tried their best to be that way. Even if it was a watered down perverted way, they still tried. And still by their obedience thought they were ok with God because of their righteousness.

SO you think Paul beleives himself blameless to YHWH';s Law?

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Romans 7:12-25, [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]14, "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. [/FONT]



[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]15, "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]16, "If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]17, "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]18, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]19, "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]20, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwell in me.


Romans 7 all that blameless before YHWH's Law goes out the window. You have no clue to the meaning of the Scripture you post. You twist them to suit your oen doctrine. So then what does the verse you misused mean?

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]

Phil 3: though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]"[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]concerning the law, a Pharisee[/FONT]"
[/FONT]
A pharisee...

they had their own man made law...

according to their man made law Paul was blameless...

You have need to learn the elementary principles.


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul/Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless, but grow in the favor and knowledge of our Master and Savior [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Awmĕin.”[/FONT]

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Each has differnt motivations. All I can spak to is myself, I seek His Commands because it is right, it is true love, I want to make YHWH pleased with me because transgression of them is sin, He gave me mercy/a new life and heart therefore I want to follow Him in truth.

Yet.... as soon as poeple say obedience to His Commands is right they get accused of "pharisee" "lawyer" "sinless perfectionist" "legalist" etc.

This is total nonsense, it is not a problem with those who seek obedience but rebellion in the hearts of those who accuse, as they are showing their heart by saying these things. Now if one says they keep the commands to be saved by their own level of obedience this onw whould also show his heart in seeking to be self justified.

It seems the battle cry of the modern mainstream religion to say the worst thing one can do is obey.

Then why do you not do it Gods way? And love others like he loved you, Seek after the things of the spirit (Gal 5: 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law)

Rom 8: that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Following the law of sin and death will not make you righteous, All it can do is give you a false sense of security you are righteous.
And as paul said, if we are seeking the things of the spirit. The fruit will be such that no law is needed. Because we will not satisfy the things of the flesh.

 

[Hizikyah]

Each has differnt motivations. All I can spak to is myself, I seek His Commands because it is right, it is true love, I want to make YHWH pleased with me because transgression of them is sin, He gave me mercy/a new life and heart therefore I want to follow Him in truth.

Yet.... as soon as poeple say obedience to His Commands is right they get accused of "pharisee" "lawyer" "sinless perfectionist" "legalist" etc.

This is total nonsense, it is not a problem with those who seek obedience but rebellion in the hearts of those who accuse, as they are showing their heart by saying these things. Now if one says they keep the commands to be saved by their own level of obedience this onw whould also show his heart in seeking to be self justified.

It seems the battle cry of the modern mainstream religion to say the worst thing one can do is obey.

Then why do you not do it Gods way? And love others like he loved you, Seek after the things of the spirit (Gal 5: 22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law)

Rom 8: that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Following the law of sin and death will not make you righteous, All it can do is give you a false sense of security you are righteous.
And as paul said, if we are seeking the things of the spirit. The fruit will be such that no law is needed. Because we will not satisfy the things of the flesh.

Highlight were I go against the Most High's way?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

SO you think Paul beleives himself blameless to YHWH';s Law?

Romans 7:12-25,
14, "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.



15, "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.


16, "If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.


17, "Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwells in me.


18, "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwells no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.


19, "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.


20, "Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwell in me.


Romans 7 all that blameless before YHWH's Law goes out the window. You have no clue to the meaning of the Scripture you post. You twist them to suit your oen doctrine. So then what does the verse you misused mean?



"concerning the law, a Pharisee"

A pharisee...

they had their own man made law...

according to their man made law Paul was blameless...

You have need to learn the elementary principles.


Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."


2 Peter/Kepha 3:15-17, "and reckon the patience of our Master as deliverance, as also our beloved brother Paul/Sha’ul wrote to you, according to the wisdom given to him, as also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these matters, in which some are hard to understand, which those who are untaught and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do also the other Scriptures. You, then, beloved ones, being forewarned, watch, lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the delusion of the lawless, but grow in the favor and knowledge of our Master and Savior יהושע Messiah. To Him be the esteem both now and to a day that abides. Awmĕin.”

Oh boy. Do you not know how to read?

Phil 3: [FONT=&quot]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.[/FONT]


Those are Paul’s words not mine. Thats how he considered himself according to the righteousness which is in the law (he never said he was sinless. He said he was blameless. No one could make a charge to him as being a law breaker as a Pharisee) God could, because he knew their hearts. But no one else could thats why Jesus said unless our righteousness exceeds there’s. That is an impossible feet.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Highlight were I go against the Most High's way?

Because your trying to become spiritually mature by following the letter. ANd not the spirit. Your taking the law out of context. Thinking it will help you,. When it was never intended to do that. It was NOT given for that purpose. And your trying to get other to follow you down that path.

 

[gb9]

there are 31,102 verses in the Bible. so one can just cut and paste and make them say pretty much anything. but, if you read them in context, read the letters as letters and books as books, you will get a complete picture.

when you do what you do, you create your own picture. the Cross is the centerpiece of the Christian faith, not Sinai.

in reference to post #353

 

[Hizikyah]

Oh boy. Do you not know how to read?

Phil 3: concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


Those are Paul’s words not mine. Thats how he considered himself according to the righteousness which is in the law (he never said he was sinless. He said he was blameless. No one could make a charge to him as being a law breaker as a Pharisee) God could, because he knew their hearts. But no one else could thats why Jesus said unless our righteousness exceeds there’s. That is an impossible feet.

Phil 3: 5"concerning the law, a Pharisee"

A pharisee...

they had their own man made law...

according to their man made law Paul was blameless...

You have need to learn the elementary principles.

Phil 3: concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

is "persecuting the church" righteous?

you keep showing you understand in the passage is wrong.

he was a pharisee, he followed pharisee law, they m,ade their own law...

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]2 Kings 17:19, “Yehuḏah, also, did not guard the commands of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהוה [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]their Strength, but walked in the laws of Yisra’yl which they made.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mark 7:1-9, “And the Pharisees and some of the scribes assembled to Him, having come from Yerushalayim. And seeing some of His taught ones eat bread with defiled, that is, with unwashed hands, they found fault. For the Pharisees, and all the Yehuḏim, do not eat unless they wash their hands thoroughly, holding fast the tradition of the elders, and coming from the market-place, they do not eat unless they wash. And there are many other traditions which they have received and hold fast – the washing of cups and utensils and copper vessels and couches. Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, “Why do Your taught ones not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? And He answering, said to them, “Well did Yeshayahu prophesy concerning you hypocrites, as it has been written, ‘This people respect Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. And in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."[/FONT]

 

[Hizikyah]

Phil 3: 5"concerning the law, a Pharisee"

Mark 7:1-9, “...holding fast the tradition of the elders...teaching as doctrinethe commands of men.’ Forsaking the command of YHWH, you hold fast the tradition of men. And He said to them, “Well do you set aside the command of YHWH, in order to guard your tradition."