Explanation For Present Tense Desscription Of Eden

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#1
"And a river proceeds out of Edem to water the garden, thence it divides itself into four heads.

The name of the one, Phisom, this it is which encircles the whole land of Evilat, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good, there also is carbuncle and emerald.

And the name of the second river is Geon, this it is which encircles the whole land of Ethiopia.

And the third river is Tigris, this is that which flows forth over against the Assyrians.

And the fourth river is Euphrates.
"

Gen 2

====

1. The description is in a present tense (Eden still existed in the time of description).
2. The description mentions Assyria
3. The description mentions the land of Evilat and its gold quality
4. The description mentions the land of Ethiopia

====

Any plausible explanation how is this possible?
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#2
Other than evidence that the evolution theory is not true when those landmarks are still around today? Granted, the Garden of Eden seems to be elusive, but an angel is guarding the tree of life there. Maybe that angel is hiding that garden of Eden, thus guarding the tree of life as well? God spoke, and thus nobody is going to find it.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#3
Check various versions. For instance, verse 10, I think it is, says "went" in the KJV.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#4
Check various versions. For instance, verse 10, I think it is, says "went" in the KJV.
Still, the problem stays:

New International Version
The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.

New Living Translation
The second branch, called the Gihon, flowed around the entire land of Cush.

English Standard Version
The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush.

New American Standard Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.

King James Bible
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#5
Still, the problem stays:

New International Version
The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.

New Living Translation
The second branch, called the Gihon, flowed around the entire land of Cush.

English Standard Version
The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush.

New American Standard Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.

King James Bible
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
From what I can see, a better rendering of yō-ṣê' would be "went out." Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Hebrew could better explain the nuances of the word. The present tense seems to be represented largely by the paraphrased versions, although Young's Literal translation renders it as "is going out."
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#6
From what I can see, a better rendering of yō-ṣê' would be "went out." Perhaps someone with more knowledge of Hebrew could better explain the nuances of the word. The present tense seems to be represented largely by the paraphrased versions, although Young's Literal translation renders it as "is going out."
Well, the problem would still be there. Whether river flows to Ethiopia from Eden or flowed to Ethiopia from Eden, the question still is:

How could Ethiopia, Assyria etc exist in the same time as Eden did.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#7
Well, the problem would still be there. Whether river flows to Ethiopia from Eden or flowed to Ethiopia from Eden, the question still is:

How could Ethiopia, Assyria etc exist in the same time as Eden did.
They where the geographic areas that the rivers flowed to/through..the author was describing where these rivers went using geographic areas. It does not suggest contemporary nations to the writer or his audience. Which is what I think you are hinting at.

 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#8
Well, the problem would still be there. Whether river flows to Ethiopia from Eden or flowed to Ethiopia from Eden, the question still is:

How could Ethiopia, Assyria etc exist in the same time as Eden did.
It would seem that these nations were in existence when Genesis was written in the time of Moses and these four rivers still flowed at that time through those areas as they had from the beginning. The only two of the rivers that are still in existence as far as I know are the Tigris and the Euphrates. Since Eden is said to be the location of an unnamed river that later divided into four separate rivers after leaving the Eden, I think it would be interesting to try to locate the head waters of the two remaining rivers and see if the other ancient river beds could be located at some point where these four rivers joined, assuming of course the flood did not in some way re-rout these rivers from their original paths or change the locations of heads waters. Interesting thought.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#9
The word Eden means paradise and the garden was planted EASTWARD IN EDEN....it was not the garden of EDEN....but rather the garden EASTWARD in EDEN.....
 
May 11, 2014
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#10
trofimus you seem to be interested in this field so I have decided to derail your thread as I always do on here and ask: What do you think about the creation stories in Genesis 1 & 2?

Genesis 1 and 2 have things in different order? Some have said that Genesis 1 deals with the world at large and Genesis 2 deals with the Garden of Eden and more precisely with humans in a less distant way than Genesis 1.

Some gnostics made a big deal out of this by claiming Elohim and YHWH are different deities since in Genesis 1 there is no mention of YHWH but this theory obviously is absolutely ridicilous and heretical.

To make it seem like I did not completely derail the thread I will attempt to answer the original question you asked: I believe it is just a poetic way of speaking in the present tense of something that is past.
Much like sometimes the future is spoken of in past-tense in the Scriptures.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#11
They where the geographic areas that the rivers flowed to/through..the author was describing where these rivers went using geographic areas. It does not suggest contemporary nations to the writer or his audience. Which is what I think you are hinting at.

1. You automatically assume that the past tense is the right one. So far, almost every translation has the present tense.

2. Even if the past tense is the right one, I am not sure what would be the point of such description.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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#12
FYI trofimus believes in the evolution theory and so he doubts believers in how they use the Bible for not believing in the evolution theory... which in actuality, he doubts what is plainly written in Genesis of the literal 6 day creation account; he does not believe the story of Noah and the ark; no matter that Jesus validated that as well as Sodom & Gomorrah by reference in warning believers of future event.

Just putting it out there so you don't get mad at him for how you read scripture when it is plain truth to you as it is written.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#13
It would seem that these nations were in existence when Genesis was written in the time of Moses and these four rivers still flowed at that time through those areas as they had from the beginning. The only two of the rivers that are still in existence as far as I know are the Tigris and the Euphrates. Since Eden is said to be the location of an unnamed river that later divided into four separate rivers after leaving the Eden, I think it would be interesting to try to locate the head waters of the two remaining rivers and see if the other ancient river beds could be located at some point where these four rivers joined, assuming of course the flood did not in some way re-rout these rivers from their original paths or change the locations of heads waters. Interesting thought.
Eden would be located in the Persian gulf, then.

But why would Moses use the present tense?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#14
trofimus you seem to be interested in this field so I have decided to derail your thread as I always do on here and ask: What do you think about the creation stories in Genesis 1 & 2?

Genesis 1 and 2 have things in different order? Some have said that Genesis 1 deals with the world at large and Genesis 2 deals with the Garden of Eden and more precisely with humans in a less distant way than Genesis 1.

Some gnostics made a big deal out of this by claiming Elohim and YHWH are different deities since in Genesis 1 there is no mention of YHWH but this theory obviously is absolutely ridicilous and heretical.

To make it seem like I did not completely derail the thread I will attempt to answer the original question you asked: I believe it is just a poetic way of speaking in the present tense of something that is past.
Much like sometimes the future is spoken of in past-tense in the Scriptures.
I am reading the Genesis 1-3 again in Septuagint these days and I also noticed the switch between titles of God.

Gen 1 has "theos" - God.

Next chapters of Genesis use "kyrios theos" - Lord God.

I am not sure yet what that means. Either two different authors/sources or something else.

So far I think that Gen 1 could be inserted later to make creation to be 7-cycles like (important for Israel). But I am not certain. Just my thoughts.
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#15

the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

(Genesis 3:23-24)

this doesn't say Eden ceased to exist.
it says the man ((and the woman)) were driven out, to the ground from which he was taken ((i.e. Adam was made from dust outside the garden, not the dust of the garden)) -- and the way to it is now guarded by the cherubim and the flaming sword.

is there another place i'm not thinking of that says Eden doesn't exist anymore?
not being accessible by us, from our physical reality, isn't the same as not existing.


 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#16

the Lord God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

(Genesis 3:23-24)

this doesn't say Eden ceased to exist.
it says the man ((and the woman)) were driven out, to the ground from which he was taken ((i.e. Adam was made from dust outside the garden, not the dust of the garden)) -- and the way to it is now guarded by the cherubim and the flaming sword.

is there another place i'm not thinking of that says Eden doesn't exist anymore?
not being accessible by us, from our physical reality, isn't the same as not existing.
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[/FONT]
I am not sure what you mean by existence outside of our physical reality. Was Assyria or Ethiopia also in "non-physical" reality? :)
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#17
"And a river proceeds out of Edem to water the garden, thence it divides itself into four heads.

The name of the one, Phisom, this it is which encircles the whole land of Evilat, where there is gold. And the gold of that land is good, there also is carbuncle and emerald.

And the name of the second river is Geon, this it is which encircles the whole land of Ethiopia.

And the third river is Tigris, this is that which flows forth over against the Assyrians.

And the fourth river is Euphrates.
"

Gen 2

====

1. The description is in a present tense (Eden still existed in the time of description).
2. The description mentions Assyria
3. The description mentions the land of Evilat and its gold quality
4. The description mentions the land of Ethiopia

====

Any plausible explanation how is this possible?
First: The present tense in Hebrew does NOT necessarily signal present time. It signals durative or continuous action.

Second: The present tense is in fact NOT used. What is used is the Present Active Participle, which signifies action which continued up to a point of time and stopped.

וְנָהָר֙ יֹצֵ֣א מֵעֵ֔דֶן should be read: And a river used to flow from Eden.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
113
#18
First: The present tense in Hebrew does NOT necessarily signal present time. It signals durative or continuous action.

Second: The present tense is in fact NOT used. What is used is the Present Active Participle, which signifies action which continued up to a point of time and stopped.

וְנָהָר֙ יֹצֵ֣א מֵעֵ֔דֶן should be read: And a river used to flow from Eden.
I do not know Hebrew, but only ESV and one paraphrase use the past tense as you did:

----

Septuagint:
And the name of the second river is Geon, this it is which encircles the whole land of Ethiopia.

New International Version
The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush.

New Living Translation
The second branch, called the Gihon, flowed around the entire land of Cush.

English Standard Version
The name of the second river is the Gihon. It is the one that flowed around the whole land of Cush.

New American Standard Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.

King James Bible
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon, which flows through the entire land of Cush.

International Standard Version
The name of the second river is Gihon— it winds through the entire land of Cush.

NET Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Cush.

New Heart English Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon; it goes around the whole land of Cush.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The name of the second river is Gihon. This is the one that winds throughout Sudan.

JPS Tanakh 1917
And the name of the second river is Gihon; the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

New American Standard 1977
And the name of the second river is Gihon; it flows around the whole land of Cush.

Jubilee Bible 2000
And the name of the second river is Gihon; this is the same that compasses the whole land of Ethiopia.

King James 2000 Bible
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that encompasses the whole land of Cush.

American King James Version
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasses the whole land of Ethiopia.

American Standard Version
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the name of the second river is Gehon: the same is it that compasseth all the land of Ethiopia

Darby Bible Translation
And the name of the second river is Gihon: that is it which surrounds the whole land of Cush.

English Revised Version
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same that compasseth the whole land of Cush.

World English Bible
The name of the second river is Gihon: the same river that flows through the whole land of Cush.

Young's Literal Translation
and the name of the second river is Gibon, it is that which is surrounding the whole land of Cush;
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#19
Here is an excerpt from my commentary. The hyperlinks will not function. There is a link for a full download in the about me section of my profile.

10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted,
and became into four heads.
In 17th century English, head in this context signifies direction (heading). The NIV
translates this as headwaters.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of
Havilah, where there is gold;
Pison: There is no certainty or agreement among scholars as to the location of this river.
Havilah: There is considerable controversy over the location of Havilah, but many
respected scholars believe it is the Northwest Arabian Peninsula.
{Return to: Ge 10:7, Gen 10:29}
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
Bdellium: There is a great deal of controversy about the translation of this word. The only
other Bible reference to it is Nu 11:7 where mana is described as like bdellium in color
and like coriander seed. The Septuagint translates it a precious stone; the Vulgate
translates it a transparent aromatic gum; and most rabbinic scholars and Gesenius
believe it to be pearl. {Return to: Eze 27:22 }
45
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the
whole land of Ethiopia.
The Hebrew word ‘sobayb’ translated ‘compasseth’ can mean either surround or
traverse or border.
Gihon: No river surrounds Ethiopia the one which traverses it is the Nile.
46
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of
Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
Hiddekel is the Tigris.
This is of course pure speculation; but it is informed speculation.
In order to traverse Ethiopia, Gihon must be the Nile. To encompass Arabia it is
reasonable that Pison refers to the antediluvian (before the flood) Red Sea.
There is sound scholarship for calling the Tigris ‘Hiddekel’ and the Euphrates is still in
place. If before the flood both the Tigris and Euphrates extended around the south of the
Arabian Peninsula; then Aden could have been the site of Eden.

map-Gen-2-14.jpg




Note: This map was found among some loose papers and adapted to my purposes. Source would be cited if known.
{Return to: Eze 27:23, Da 10:4 }
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,530
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#20
I am not sure what you mean by existence outside of our physical reality. Was Assyria or Ethiopia also in "non-physical" reality? :)
All i know is that the Bible doesn't seem to say Eden is no more, and it is described as though a literal place. It says it is inaccessible, for as long as He requires the Cherubim and the Flaming Sword to stand in the way to it.