The Pharisees and those other guys

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breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#1
So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”
Mark 12:27 NLT

It occurred to me this morning the significance of Jesus standing in public with these guys and telling these 'experts' on scripture that they are in error.
They and the people considered themselves guides and exceedingly knowledgable on scripture and here comes a Man who numerous times showed and told they know nothing.

I think it's entirely possible to become like that, thinking you know when you actually don't is very dangerous.

I used to be proud and thought I was a big shot Christian many years ago. I'm so glad Holy Spirit has shown me otherwise but has also shown me the truth of what He has deposited in me.

Knowing scripture is far more than just mental arithmetic, we must rely on Holy Spirit to reveal its truth.
 
Nov 12, 2015
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#2
So he is the God of the living, not the dead. You have made a serious error.”
Mark 12:27 NLT

It occurred to me this morning the significance of Jesus standing in public with these guys and telling these 'experts' on scripture that they are in error.
They and the people considered themselves guides and exceedingly knowledgable on scripture and here comes a Man who numerous times showed and told they know nothing.

I think it's entirely possible to become like that, thinking you know when you actually don't is very dangerous.

I used to be proud and thought I was a big shot Christian many years ago. I'm so glad Holy Spirit has shown me otherwise but has also shown me the truth of what He has deposited in me.

Knowing scripture is far more than just mental arithmetic, we must rely on Holy Spirit to reveal its truth.
Yeah! They devoted their entire lives to the study of one thing. Then were told all their study had given them no clue whatsoever. They were the "seminary students" of their day. But taught by other men but not taught by Gods Spirit.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
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#3
Yeah! They devoted their entire lives to the study of one thing. Then were told all their study had given them no clue whatsoever. They were the "seminary students" of their day. But taught by other men but not taught by Gods Spirit.
What did they get wrong in regarding that specific scripture that Jesus pointed out?

Did they read it as God was speaking in past tense when He said He is the God of.... When He was actually speaking in present tense?

Edit: And we see that some of them it was actually revealed that love is the greatest commandment.
 
Last edited:
Dec 12, 2013
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#4
They were teaching for the commandments of God the traditions of men......we see the same thing today.....and it usually starts with a "good idea"

A good idea becomes a practice becomes a tradition becomes a law becomes--->this is the way we have always done it..........
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,339
2,427
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#5
These are really good points, but I think we need to be careful in how we navigate them.


Where exactly are the problem the Pharisees had with scripture?
- There is certainly nothing wrong with study; the scripture commands us to study.
- There is certainly nothing wrong with having strong doctrinal beliefs; the scripture commands us both to study doctrine, and to have belief in God's word.
- There is certainly nothing wrong with studying the scripture enough we can discern and judge things intelligently; we are commanded to "test" and "prove" things using the scripture.

So where exactly did the pharisees go wrong?

There is nothing wrong with study, or with holding doctrinal beliefs, or with gaining discernment from scripture.

So where did they go wrong?

Jesus seemed pretty clear:
Jesus called these people hypocrites.
A hypocrite isn't someone who is honestly mistaken, and thinks he's right when he's wrong.
That's isn't a hypocrite.
So if we hold a strong doctrinal view, and later discover we were wrong, this doesn't make us like the Pharisees...
an honest mistake doesn't make us hypocrites.
A hypocrite is someone who KNOWS he's doing wrong.

The Pharisees KNEW they were doing wrong.
They KNEW they were teaching wrong.
They INTENTIONALLY ignored parts of the scripture they didn't like.
They even KNEW Jesus was the messiah... and they killed him anyway.

So we don't become pharisees and hypocrites from studying the bible, or holding strong doctrinal views;
we become pharisees when we ignore parts of scripture we don't like,
and we go do what is wrong things.

The Pharisees didn't have a scripture problem,
they had a heart problem.



Conclusion:
To conclude, and try to tie my meanderings back into Breno's point -
if we're trying to stay close to God, and be led by his Spirit,
we aren't going to act like the Pharisees.
We may make mistakes, but communion with the Spirit requires us to at least have a right heart.
Communing with the Spirit is the opposite of communing with our own pride...
even if we try to do both at the same time, it isn't possible.


God Bless
 
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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,339
2,427
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#6
Please excuse all the wonky typos above.

The Spirit never seems inclined to repair my grammar.


: )
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#7
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:23, “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you tithe the mint and the anise and the cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the Torah: the right-ruling and the compassion and the belief. These need to have been done, without neglecting the others.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1 Timothy 1:5-7, “Now the goal of this command is love from a clean heart, from a good conscience and a sincere belief, which some, having missed the goal, turned aside to senseless talk, wishing to be teachers of Torah, understanding neither what they say nor concerning what they strongly affirm.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:4, “For they (the pharisees not YHWH) bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but with their finger they do not wish to move them.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]How do they “bind heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders, but with their finger they do not wish to move them?”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]New International Version - Mat 23:2-3, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]King James Bible - Mat 23:2-3, "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah - Mat 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to their takanot (reforms) and their ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Takanot: rabbinical reforms or enactments that falsely change or add to YHWH's Law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud. The Savior said this to the Pharisees;[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 23:8, “But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi, (master)’ for One is your Master, the Messiah, and you are all brothers.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Matt 23:33, "Serpents! Brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of Gehenna?"[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Yahshua EXPOSED the Pharisees and their false religious system EVERY CHANCE HE GOT. He did not sit by and let people lies many need to re-read the words of the Messiah, and see how He tore apart the lies of the accepted religious system of that day every chance He had, Is it possible we today have the same issue, where main stream religions are teaching tradition rather than truth?[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Mat 15:3-9, “But He answering, said to them, “Why do you also transgress the command of YHWH because of your tradition? For YHWH has commanded, saying, ‘Respect your father and your mother,’ ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me has been dedicated, is certainly released from respecting his father or mother.’ So you have nullified the command of YHWH by your tradition."Hypocrites! Well did Isayah (29:13-14*) prophesy of you, saying: These people draw near to Me with their mouth and honor Me with their lips, but have removed their hearts far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." [/FONT]
 
Nov 12, 2015
9,112
822
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#8
What did they get wrong in regarding that specific scripture that Jesus pointed out?

Did they read it as God was speaking in past tense when He said He is the God of.... When He was actually speaking in present tense?

Edit: And we see that some of them it was actually revealed that love is the greatest commandment.
What they got wrong and what He was addressing, is that they did not believe in a resurrection. (In my opinion when I read it).
The second part of what he said was:but concerning a resurrection...
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,695
1,125
113
#9
The Pharisees didn't have a scripture problem,
they had a heart problem.
this right here! :)

clean on the outside; dead on the inside (whitewashed tombs, the Lord Jesus called them).

can't understand spiritual things without the Spirit.
 

breno785au

Senior Member
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
764
113
39
Australia
#10
These are really good points, but I think we need to be careful in how we navigate them.


Where exactly are the problem the Pharisees had with scripture?
- There is certainly nothing wrong with study; the scripture commands us to study.
- There is certainly nothing wrong with having strong doctrinal beliefs; the scripture commands us both to study doctrine, and to have belief in God's word.
- There is certainly nothing wrong with studying the scripture enough we can discern and judge things intelligently; we are commanded to "test" and "prove" things using the scripture.

So where exactly did the pharisees go wrong?

There is nothing wrong with study, or with holding doctrinal beliefs, or with gaining discernment from scripture.

So where did they go wrong?

Jesus seemed pretty clear:
Jesus called these people hypocrites.
A hypocrite isn't someone who is honestly mistaken, and thinks he's right when he's wrong.
That's isn't a hypocrite.
So if we hold a strong doctrinal view, and later discover we were wrong, this doesn't make us like the Pharisees...
an honest mistake doesn't make us hypocrites.
A hypocrite is someone who KNOWS he's doing wrong.

The Pharisees KNEW they were doing wrong.
They KNEW they were teaching wrong.
They INTENTIONALLY ignored parts of the scripture they didn't like.
They even KNEW Jesus was the messiah... and they killed him anyway.

So we don't become pharisees and hypocrites from studying the bible, or holding strong doctrinal views;
we become pharisees when we ignore parts of scripture we don't like,
and we go do what is wrong things.

The Pharisees didn't have a scripture problem,
they had a heart problem.



Conclusion:
To conclude, and try to tie my meanderings back into Breno's point -
if we're trying to stay close to God, and be led by his Spirit,
we aren't going to act like the Pharisees.
We may make mistakes, but communion with the Spirit requires us to at least have a right heart.
Communing with the Spirit is the opposite of communing with our own pride...
even if we try to do both at the same time, it isn't possible.


God Bless
Excellent points, very much agree.

What they got wrong and what He was addressing, is that they did not believe in a resurrection. (In my opinion when I read it).
The second part of what he said was:but concerning a resurrection...
One thought for me is that if they misinterpreted the text and then formed a doctrine around it, you can get a different understanding of the character of God.
And if the scripture that Jesus pointed out was surely misunderstood, how easily it is for it to be misunderstood, hence why we need Holy Spirit to show us correct understanding and application.
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,780
2,943
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#11
Just for clarification, for those who think seminary students don't know anything, there were actually 4 different groups in Jesus' day who thought they had all the answers.

1. Pharisees - knew the bible well, tried to keep the law, because they didn't want to be taken away to Babylon for disobedience again. The name means "separate" because they finally listened to God, to separate themselves from the surrounding nations. Too little, too late? Some were saved, or wanted to know more, like Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimethia. There is also an interesting reference to Jesus going to the house of Simon, a Pharisee. (Luke 7:35-50). They were all interested in hearing what Jesus had to say. Yes, the chief priest was a Pharisee, hard of heart, and a pawn of Satan, but not all were. Yes, they were instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus. But then, God can use whoever he wants to accomplish his purposes.Oh yes, the Pharisees became our modern day Jews. After Jerusalem was destroyed, they sat down and codified the OT laws, coming up with interesting interpretations, like "do not boil a goat in his mother's milk" meaning, separate all your utensils into milk and meat, and never use the wrong one, or they will be contaminated. Kosher food laws, in other words.

2. Sadducees - these were the ones who didn't believe in the spiritual realm, the resurrection, and certainly not Jesus. They were not as powerful as the Pharisees, and they often fought with them over doctrine. They were wiped out after the fall of Jerusalem.

3. Essenes - these were the ones living in the caves in communities, trying to be spiritual through study and austere living. They sought holiness at all costs. They stored Scriptures in caves, in the desert, lived in communities. No one really knows what happened to them, suffice it to say, their traditions were wiped out with the fall of Jerusalem. Supposedly, John the Baptist was one, although Scripture doesn't confirm it, what he wore and ate certainly fits with the Essenes. I think they were really into bathing, too! Washing away their sins.

4. Zealots - These were the Jews who were rebels, wanted to set up an earthly Kingdom and overthrow the Romans. Simon the Zealot, listed in all 4 gospel disciple lists, and in Acts, was one of these. They started a revolt in 66 AD, which led to the Romans bringing in legions, and the sacking of Jerusalem, and the dispersion of the Jews. The last zealots died at Masada, by suicide, when the Romans laid seige to that mountain castle.

So, did Jesus pick a zealot, who didn't understand the spiritual side, without knowing what he stood for? This was an apostle! The only sect we don't hear of following Jesus was the Sadducees. Perhaps because they did not believe in angels, let alone the spiritual, there was no place for them?

In any event, I have no doubt, at least for 1, 3 and 4 above, that there were people who did have a spiritual relationship with God. Not every Pharisee was a chief priest out to get Jesus. Not every Zealot was closed to the possibility of a spiritual Kingdom of God. These were the Jewish denominations of those days.

Just as today, there are true believers in every denomination and non-denom! What did Jesus say about who true believers are, when asked by the Sadducees, and the Pharisees?

"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions." Mark 12; 28-34
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,666
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#12
It’s odd the Pharisees seemed to me like well education ,and sometimes famous criminal attorneys that would do anything to get their clients off .Twisting the laws ( in their case God’s laws ) in such away as to reverse its original intent. Only the Pharisees represented their own interests.
Blessings Bill
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
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#13
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

So what did you come to fulfill?

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5:18

Has anyone contemplated that 'til all be fulfilled' represents 'til heaven and earth pass'? Since it is written in Proverbs 17:24 that "wisdom is before those that have understanding" I am going to presume that I got it wrong and the answer is going to be probably not because Jesus didn't say that his jots and tittles would last forever but rather he was quoted as saying "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:19

So what is breaking one of these 'least' commandments?

Is that like Matthew 5:10 where someone thinks that they are blessed because they are being being prosecuted because of their righteousness? If they are being prosecuted because of their righteousness then they better be real righteous since the passage continues...



For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20

Like it says, blessed are those who are prosecuted for a transgression which in righteousness should be prosecuted, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven because whom the LORD loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.
 
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Mar 28, 2016
15,954
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#14
What did they get wrong in regarding that specific scripture that Jesus pointed out?

Did they read it as God was speaking in past tense when He said He is the God of.... When He was actually speaking in present tense?

Edit: And we see that some of them it was actually revealed that love is the greatest commandment.

They were seeking after another foundation called necromancy rather than seeking after our living God following his commandments . Its the same idea as; "let the dead bury the dead" a pagan form of worship. That was used like with Rachel who hid the family idols called teraphims. .