Paul's testimony in chapter 7 of Romans

[lightbearer]

The Greek historical present tense is indeed used in the New Testament, but if Paul was using the Greek historical present tense in the seventh chapter of Romans, it would necessarily mean that Romans 7:14-25 is autobiographical—which is often supposed—but such a horrible life of spiritual defeat was not his even before his rebirth. Indeed, in writing to the Christians in Philippi, he writes of his life as an unregenerate Jew,

Philippians 3:5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. (NASB, 1995)

So—who is the man in Romans 7:14-25? It cannot possibly be Saul of Tarsus; and if it is Paul the Christian—upon his rebirth in Christ, Paul was “sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14) and lived a wretched, sinful life! The true answer is that Paul, in Romans 7:14-25, is using the literary device known as “speech in character,” and the character in Romans 7:14-25 is an unregenerate but devout Jew struggling with all his might to keep the Law, but miserably failing to do so because he lacks the help of the Holy Spirit!

Sorry for the late reply Sagart..

Just for the record I can see your argument. I will have to pray on it some more. If I do not receive anything definite; I think what I will probably do when I am blessed to share this message again. I will share what is presented in your post also. To me at this point it is rather subjective.

Speech in character or

historical present?​

​

 

[seed_time_harvest]

In regards to chapter 7 in Romans. The Christian walk is a battle of the old man vs the new. The old man (the "flesh", the sin nature) still exists, as Paul wrote.



However the beginning of chapter eight should actually be in the same chapter as seven. It is a continuation of Paul's testimony. Paul states he hath been made free from the law of sin and death. He is no longer in captivity to the Law of which was in his members; he is in the Spirit in Christ because Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh and condemned sin in the flesh; His flesh. That the righteousness of the law can be fulfilled in him (us). For Jesus Christ his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. So be healed and go and sin no more.For if after we have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, we are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.




(1Pe 2:24; 2Pe 2:20)




There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me (Paul) free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do (in Paul's mind), in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.(Rom 8:1-4)




Please notice in that there in only no condemnation if we are walking in the Spirit and that Jesus condemned sin; taking it away; nailing it to the cross that the righteousness be fulfilled (completely filled ) in us.

Someone might ask,How do we walk In the Spirit?
For we are HIS workmanship created IN CHRIST unto good works that was preordained that we should walk In them.
For GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS ONE and ONLY BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever BELIEVES In HIM would not perish but have EVERlasting LIFE.

 

[FlSnookman7]

I think it is important to remember that Paul's letter was written as a letter. If we look at the end of chapter 7 we see Paul saying this...
Rom 7:24-25 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul then goes on in Romans 8 to explain how we stay in the spirit...
Rom 8:9-10 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Paul is showing that it is not what we do or do not do that somehow "keeps" us in the spirit but it is what Jesus did. We stay in the spirit because God dwells inside of us and makes us righteous. What is often referred to as living a "Christian life" is a result of our righteousness in Christ and not a pathway to it.

We are further encouraged by what Paul writes at the end of Romans 8...

Rom 8:35-39 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank God we do not have to trust in our ability to become or stay righteous and holy! We can instead submit and have faith in Jesus instead of ourselves.

 

[lightbearer]

I think it is important to remember that Paul's letter was written as a letter.

Yes indeed!

Paul is showing that it is not what we do or do not do that somehow "keeps" us in the spirit but it is what Jesus did.

More importantly what He is doing! Here is a summary of Romans using mainly the verses contained therein pertaining to the righteousness of the Faith; Jesus Christ.

By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for (into) obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
For we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is through the faith of Jesus Christ into all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
By whom we also have access to the faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in expectation of the glory of God.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
….Even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Why? Because they sought it not by (the) faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (through their own efforts through the Law), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ (the Faith) is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.
For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ, ( the Word, the Divine utterances, all that GOD would have in and of us; HIS LAW; HIS COMMANDMENTS. HIS FAITH; Christ) down from above
Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ , ( the Word, the Divine utterances, all that GOD would have in and of us; HIS LAW;

HIS COMMANDMENTS.​

HIS FAITH; Christ) again from the dead.)
But what saith it? The word (the Word, the Divine utterances, all that GOD would have in and of us; HIS LAW. HIS FAITH; Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that we may do it; that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 1:5,17, 3:19,21-23, 5:2,15,17,19, 9:31-33, 10:3-8; Deut 30:12-14)

We stay in the spirit because God dwells inside of us and makes us righteous. What is often referred to as living a "Christian life" is a result of our righteousness in Christ and not a pathway to it.

In, of and through Christ; Amen! That is exactly what the Gospel is. Praise GOD!

We are further encouraged by what Paul writes at the end of Romans 8...

Rom 8:35-39 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Praise GOD!

 

[Grandpa]

The Greek historical present tense is indeed used in the New Testament, but if Paul was using the Greek historical present tense in the seventh chapter of Romans, it would necessarily mean that Romans 7:14-25 is autobiographical—which is often supposed—but such a horrible life of spiritual defeat was not his even before his rebirth. Indeed, in writing to the Christians in Philippi, he writes of his life as an unregenerate Jew,

Philippians 3:5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. (NASB, 1995)

So—who is the man in Romans 7:14-25? It cannot possibly be Saul of Tarsus; and if it is Paul the Christian—upon his rebirth in Christ, Paul was “sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14) and lived a wretched, sinful life! The true answer is that Paul, in Romans 7:14-25, is using the literary device known as “speech in character,” and the character in Romans 7:14-25 is an unregenerate but devout Jew struggling with all his might to keep the Law, but miserably failing to do so because he lacks the help of the Holy Spirit!

Everyone who follows the law by their own understanding is under spiritual defeat.

Most don't know it. And that was what Paul was saying in Philippians. IF anyone could have followed the law by their own understanding it would have been him.

Paul writes later in Philippians;

Philippians 3:8-11
[FONT=&quot]8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


Paul WAS NOT saying that he had "spiritual victory" through his carnal understanding and carnal self, as you assert.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Can a person have "spiritual victory" and not enter into the kingdom of heaven? No, of course not. Paul knew it. And that's what he wrote about.[/FONT]

 

[lightbearer]

Someone might ask,How do we walk In the Spirit?
For we are HIS workmanship created IN CHRIST unto good works that was preordained that we should walk In them.
For GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS ONE and ONLY BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever BELIEVES In HIM would not perish but have EVERlasting LIFE.

Good Post!
John 3:16 can also be translated like this...

For GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS ONE and ONLY BEGOTTEN SON that whosoever BELIEVES INTO HIM would not perish but have EVERlasting LIFE.
​

Actually it should be!

May the LORD continue to bless you in all HIS Way; Jesus Christ!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So when we have the blinders taken off we can clearly see that Paul is stating that He has been freed from the Law of sin and Death. His flesh no longer had dominion over him. He was no longer doing the things that he would not. He was experiencing the victory over the flesh through Christ Jesus.

So the common teaching from chapter seven in Romans is heresy. That Paul was continuing in sin because he could not help himself is a direct slap in the face to all that Christ did for us, and to all that Paul shared in and of the Gospel.

1. Paul was not saying he was not sinless.

2. Paul spoke in present tense

3. Paul spoke of being in the spirit (impossible for his pre-salvation life)

4. Pauls answer was that he was not going to focus on the things he can or can not do. But he was going to focus on what he has, and that was jesus

His conclusion

1. With the mind he will serve God
2. With the flesh he will serve sin.

the term flesh is just a term which means inner focus, anytime we sin (yes, I said ANYTIME) we are in the flesh, NOT in the spirit.

If I see a person in need, I have two choices, I can follow the spirit, and put that persons needs above my own, which is what I want to do, Or I can follow the flesh and put my needs above theirs (and not serve them) which is not what I want to do, yet there are times where I still for whatever do not sere them, which is sin. And also called being “in the flesh”

THAT is what paul was stating in Romans 7.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In regards to the word fulfilled I would like to add a foot note. It is translated from the Greek word pleroo.

From Mickelson's enhanced Strong's Greek and Hebrew Dictionaries.
G4137 πληρόω pleroo (play-roh'-o) v.
1. to fully, completely fill
2. (literally) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow)
3. (figuratively) to fully supply, satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.

Pleroo which is to fully fill; completely fill. This how much of the righteousness of the Law is in us or should be in us who walk after the Spirit and not after the flesh. Remember what John says? He says, " He that is doing righteousness is righteous even as HE (Jesus) is righteous.

"Even as" is a direct comparison to how Jesus was righteous. So How was Jesus righteous?

By GOD's indwelling Spirit. He says in John 14:10, "...but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

As Paul wrote, "GOD works in us both to will and do HIS good pleasure."

With man this is impossible; but with GOD all things are possible!

What it means is that God has COMPLETELY filled us with HIS righteousness. The Bible tells us he has filled us with his love to overflowing, so we can take that love and share it with others. And this is the power over sin.

Pauls whole argument centered about being obedient via the law (flesh or self will) or the spirit (power of God) if we try to interpret these two chapters outside of this context, we will not understand what Paul was trying to say.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then he condemns himself by his opening comment in verse 8....

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This can be seen in three ways.

1. It is not in the origional (it is missing from most documents, in fact is is only foundin the KJV, and it is also repeated in vs 4, which is why most people think it was a scribal error

2. That those who are saved and under no condemnation, do walk according to the spirit, and not by the flesh (yet they still sin, so they still do have times where the flesh leads them

3. The way you have presented it.

If he was still doing the things that he would not he was walking in the flesh and still under condemnation.

Thats true, ANytime we sin, we are following the flesh and not the spirit. Paul never claimed to be sinless. In fact he continually called himself the chief of all sinners. (Present tense)

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

It has, he is no longer under law, but under grace (his context) this he has been freed from the law which can never make him righteous.

If he was still doing the things that he would not he would not be free of the law of sin and the body of death which in his members..(7:23,24)

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Sin was condemned in the flesh of Jesus. It shall not have dominion. We have been made free from the Law of sin that worketh in our members by He Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead (seperated) to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

We can not walk after the flesh, do things that we would not and the righteousness of the Law be fufilled in us. It is one or the other.
(Rom 8:1-5 KJV)

He is stating a fact,

1. The law can not make me righteous, it can only bring me death (the law came, sin revived and I died)
2. Only by seeking after the things of the spirit can we start to live christ centered morally upright lives (not through the law)

Paul was speaking rhetorically in regards to verse 13.

Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.(1Ti 1:13 KJV)

Did Paul continue in sin that grace abounded? God forbid How could he that was dead to sin live any longer therein? For he was dead nevertheless he lived; but not he, but Christ liveth in him. And the life he lived in the flesh he lived by the faith of the Son of GOD. He Who was manifested to taketh away our sins and in Him is no sin.
And they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (Rom 6:1; Gal 2:20; Eph 5:32)

paul had an issue with pride, pride in the word of God is one of the most dangerous, and evil of all sins, All sin comes from pride, Pride seeks to take, and not to give, And pride is the root of most if not ALL other sins.

That is why paul was given the thorn in the flesh, so he could give God the credit and see himself. That is what paul referee to in romans 7, His pride was trh issue.

 

[Studyman]

The Greek historical present tense is indeed used in the New Testament, but if Paul was using the Greek historical present tense in the seventh chapter of Romans, it would necessarily mean that Romans 7:14-25 is autobiographical—which is often supposed—but such a horrible life of spiritual defeat was not his even before his rebirth. Indeed, in writing to the Christians in Philippi, he writes of his life as an unregenerate Jew,

Philippians 3:5. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee;
6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless. (NASB, 1995)

So—who is the man in Romans 7:14-25? It cannot possibly be Saul of Tarsus; and if it is Paul the Christian—upon his rebirth in Christ, Paul was “sold into bondage to sin” (Romans 7:14) and lived a wretched, sinful life! The true answer is that Paul, in Romans 7:14-25, is using the literary device known as “speech in character,” and the character in Romans 7:14-25 is an unregenerate but devout Jew struggling with all his might to keep the Law, but miserably failing to do so because he lacks the help of the Holy Spirit!

The true answer is that Paul, in Romans 7:14-25, is using the literary device known as “speech in character,” and the character in Romans 7:14-25 is an unregenerate but devout Jew struggling with all his might to keep the Law, but miserably failing to do so because he lacks the help of the Holy Spirit!

May I humbly suggest This statement does not reflect what the Bible teaches about the Jews? While it is commonly taught in Mainstream Christianity that the Jews/Pharisees were "struggling with all his might to keep the Law", the actual teaching of the Bible says differently.

Zacharias represents one of several "Faithful" Jews written about that cast a different light on this common mainstream teaching. The Jews that turned to God through out the history of the Bible were helped to overcome their carnal self.

Jesus didn't reject an entire religion because they were "Trying to obey God with all their might" and failed. I know this is common mainstream preaching, but it isn't true according to the Word. These Jews had been preaching falsehoods about God for centuries. The Prophets foretold of their preaching over and over again. There is nowhere in the prophesies about them that even suggested they were desperately trying to follow God.

Jesus never once accused these mainstream preachers of His time as "trying with all their might to obey God, but failed". He said just the opposite of them.


Romans 7 is a chapter about all mankind,(in my understanding) and a perfect insight into the mind of man. It reflects the journey "many" are called into, but few accept.

Jesus, before becoming a man, explains what Paul is speaking to perfectly in:

Duet. 30: 19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

This is one choice.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin (Death)which is in my members.



This is the other choice.

We all have God's Words in us, and we all have our carnal self in us. One hates the other.

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. But we have a choice regarding which one will rule over our "works" which is what the Bible says we will be judged by.

If we "cling unto Jesus" and follow His Instructions, and choose Him (repent) over the traditions and thoughts of man, we will be blessed with Grace and Truth. (forgiveness of sins and allowed to understand His Word)

If we rebel against His Word and reject it, then we will not receive Grace, or the Spiritual understanding necessary to understand His Word.

(17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.)





This choice is given to all mankind as it was to Eve. She had God's Word in her mind, and she had her own thoughts in her mind. She chose her own thoughts over the Word of God.

(And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes,)

If we choose death, then the temptation is over. why would satan try and deceive a dead person. Jesus doesn't know us, He is a God of the living. And we become part of the broad path that leads to destruction.

REv. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.




But those few that choose life, will receive the perfect helper from Jesus. "I believe, help me in my unbelief".


And with the Help of His "Truth" we will not let sin, that is in us all, have dominion over us. It is a race, a struggle, and there is a cost as Jesus said, but he who ENDURES to the end shall have everlasting life.

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Flesh is dead, crucified with Christ and can rule over nothing)

 

[Sagart]

the term flesh is just a term which means inner focus, anytime we sin (yes, I said ANYTIME) we are in the flesh, NOT in the spirit.

In first-century Hellenistic (the cultural background of the New Testament) thought, the σαρχ (flesh) is the material part of man responsible for the desire of such things as food, drink, physical comfort, respect, admiration, love, acceptance, sex, etc. Therefore Paul used the word σαρχ (flesh) to express that concept, sometimes with emphasis on the material itself, and sometimes with emphasis on the desires for which it is responsible. When these desires were contrary to the desires of God for the man, we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the Spirit, the two often opposing sources of desire. When these desires were contrary to the desires of the intellect, the rational part of man, the νους (mind), we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the mind and its desires (Rom. 7:25).

Christ, in His humanity, shared this material part of man with all men (Rom. 1:3, 8:3), but He never yielded to the desires for which it is responsible. Paul taught that Christians are to identify with Christ through identifying with His death and resurrection, and to yield as Christ did, not to the desires of the flesh that result in sin, but to the desires of the Spirit that result in righteousness.

The fleshly man is the man who allows the desires of the flesh to rule his daily life; the spiritual man is the man who allows the Holy Spirit to rule his daily life, he is the man who is walking by the Spirit—and this man will not carry out the desire of the flesh, and hence he will not sin (Gal. 5:16).

Moreover, we as Christians are commanded to walk by the Spirit. Those Christians who consistently obey that command consistently live lives free from sin. Those Christians who do not consistently obey that command live lives in which sin is a daily occurrence, and many of them believe that such a life is the norm for a Christian—indeed, they do not believe that an alternative even exists.

 

[beastslayer1970]

In first-century Hellenistic (the cultural background of the New Testament) thought, the σαρχ (flesh) is the material part of man responsible for the desire of such things as food, drink, physical comfort, respect, admiration, love, acceptance, sex, etc. Therefore Paul used the word σαρχ (flesh) to express that concept, sometimes with emphasis on the material itself, and sometimes with emphasis on the desires for which it is responsible. When these desires were contrary to the desires of God for the man, we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the Spirit, the two often opposing sources of desire. When these desires were contrary to the desires of the intellect, the rational part of man, the νους (mind), we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the mind and its desires (Rom. 7:25).

Christ, in His humanity, shared this material part of man with all men (Rom. 1:3, 8:3), but He never yielded to the desires for which it is responsible. Paul taught that Christians are to identify with Christ through identifying with His death and resurrection, and to yield as Christ did, not to the desires of the flesh that result in sin, but to the desires of the Spirit that result in righteousness.

The fleshly man is the man who allows the desires of the flesh to rule his daily life; the spiritual man is the man who allows the Holy Spirit to rule his daily life, he is the man who is walking by the Spirit—and this man will not carry out the desire of the flesh, and hence he will not sin (Gal. 5:16).

Moreover, we as Christians are commanded to walk by the Spirit. Those Christians who consistently obey that command consistently live lives free from sin. Those Christians who do not consistently obey that command live lives in which sin is a daily occurrence, and many of them believe that such a life is the norm for a Christian—indeed, they do not believe that an alternative even exists.

good stuff and part of the nearly to good to be true Gospel, that is never taught because of religious mindsets that love to keep people in bondage and helpless over sin.

I do not believe we are sinless or perfect at all because we are not.

I also do not believe my old man fights with my new man constantly. The old man only fights with the new man, because:

The new man is not aware he is risen with Christ
Because the new man has not crucified the old man.
There is no new man and only mental assent.

 

[Sagart]

May I humbly suggest This statement does not reflect what the Bible teaches about the Jews? While it is commonly taught in Mainstream Christianity that the Jews/Pharisees were "struggling with all his might to keep the Law", the actual teaching of the Bible says differently.

Zacharias represents one of several "Faithful" Jews written about that cast a different light on this common mainstream teaching. The Jews that turned to God through out the history of the Bible were helped to overcome their carnal self.

Jesus didn't reject an entire religion because they were "Trying to obey God with all their might" and failed. I know this is common mainstream preaching, but it isn't true according to the Word. These Jews had been preaching falsehoods about God for centuries. The Prophets foretold of their preaching over and over again. There is nowhere in the prophesies about them that even suggested they were desperately trying to follow God.

Jesus never once accused these mainstream preachers of His time as "trying with all their might to obey God, but failed". He said just the opposite of them.

The Bible tells us absolutely nothing about the Jews in the Church in Rome—and it is a particular subset of these Jews that Paul is especially ministering to in this part of his epistle. These Jews apparently believed that Jesus was the Messiah and desired to fellowship with other such Jews. However, they were not experiencing the victory over sin that other members of the church were experiencing; and Paul, using the literary device known as ‘speech in character,’ in verse 7 steps into the character of such a Jew struggling with all his might to keep the Law, but finding himself unable to so. In this character, he expresses, using the dramatic first person singular pronoun ‘I’, the wretchedness of such a condition, and brings to light the cause of their condition—the very power of sin which is the Law that they are striving to obey! (Compare 1 Cor. 15:56). In verse 24, while still writing in the character of the defeated Jew, he writes, “Wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?” But Paul becomes so excited that he cannot restrain himself and jumps out of character and writes in verse 25, “Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” He then steps back into character and writes, “So then, with my mind I am a slave to the Law of God, but with my flesh I am a slave to the law of sin.”
Having made that summarizing remark, Paul steps back out of character and writes,

8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Sagart]

Romans 7 is a chapter about all mankind,(in my understanding) and a perfect insight into the mind of man. It reflects the journey "many" are called into, but few accept.

I disagree! Romans 7 is a part of a very complex argument that began in Rom. 1:16 and continues on through Romans 8:39.


In the fifth chapter of Romans Paul wrote,

Rom. 5:20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

This verse gives rise to a question that is asked in the sixth chapter of Romans,

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

The rest of the sixth chapter of Romans is Paul’s answer to that question, and the answer continues through the first 6 verses of chapter 7,

Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Notice that Paul wrote in verse 4 that we were made to die to the Law (the covenant of Law found in the Old Testament). This verse gives rise to two new questions that are asked in the following verse,

Rom. 7:7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin?

The rest of verse 7 through verse 12 answers that question but gives rise to another question,

Rom. 7:13a. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me?

The rest of verse 13 answers that question by saying,

Rom. 7:13b. May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

In Rom. 7:14-25, Paul elaborates upon that answer. The real cause of death is not the Law; it is sin, but death is effected through the Law. Paul explains this through an illustration in which a Jew who loves the Law attempts to keep it but finds that he is not able to do so because he is made of natural flesh and the Law is spiritual. That is why a man must die to the Law as taught in Romans 6 and be born again.

In Rom. 8:1-4 Paul summarizes what he has been writing,

Rom. 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


Many people have read into Romans 7 their own condition and imagined that Paul was writing about his experience in that condition, but we know from other things that Paul wrote that his condition was never like that,

Rom. 5:8. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 4:1. Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2. In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy.
3. But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

Phil. 3:6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

Phil. 4:9. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.


The key to the correct understanding of Romans 7:14-25 is that the man being described is striving to keep the Law but failing to do so. Christians have died to the Law and therefore do not strive to keep it.


All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995, with my occasional emphasis using underlined type.

 

[lightbearer]

Everyone who follows the law by their own understanding is under spiritual defeat.

Amen! That is exactly what Paul through the Spirit is talking about in

Romans 7:23, 25. They are referring to an acknowledgement to one’s understanding.

Paul says he gets it. His intellect understands and his mind is a slave to it, but it does not help him gain victory over the sin in his flesh.

Praise the LORD we do not have to stay in this condition! For we are not in the flesh but the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made us free from the law of sin and death. For what the could not do because an intellectual understanding is weak against the flesh. God sending HIS Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and condemned sin in the flesh. That the righteousness of the law be fulfilled to the uttermost in us. Who walk not after the flesh but the Spirit. ​

So where we walking? We cannot serve to Masters! A little leaven leavens the whole!

Most don't know it. And that was what Paul was saying in Philippians. IF anyone could have followed the law by their own understanding it would have been him.

Paul writes later in Philippians;

Philippians 3:8-11
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.


Paul WAS NOT saying that he had "spiritual victory" through his carnal understanding and carnal self, as you assert.

Great verses! The Gospel in Philippians.

Paul writes through the Spirit, "Not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Through the Faith of; not Faith in!

For we are dead never the less we live yet not us but Christ liveth in us. And the life we now live in the flesh we live by the Faith of Jesus Christ.

But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Why? Because they sought it not by (the) faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness (through their own efforts and understanding through the Law), have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

For Christ (the Faith) is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ, ​

( the Word, the Divine utterances, all that GOD would have in and of us; HIS LAW; HIS COMMANDMENTS. HIS FAITH; Christ)

down from aboveOr, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ , ​

( the Word, the Divine utterances, all that GOD would have in and of us; HIS LAW;

HIS COMMANDMENTS. HIS FAITH; Christ)

again from the dead.)​

But what saith it? The word ​

(the Word, the Divine utterances, all that GOD would have in and of us; HIS LAW. HIS FAITH; Christ)

is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that we may do it; that is, the word of faith, which we preach!​

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Can a person have "spiritual victory" and not enter into the kingdom of heaven? No, of course not. Paul knew it. And that's what he wrote about.

It is why Christ came. We are a New Wine Skin; the Body of Christ; the Temple of GOD!

He Purged our conscience (our inner man; who we are) from dead works (sin; for the wages of sin is death) to serve the Living GOD.
A Vessel made fit for Holy use!

So we press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded. For it is GOD that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure! With man this is possible; but with GOD all things are possible!
(Php 3:14-15)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

In first-century Hellenistic (the cultural background of the New Testament) thought, the σαρχ (flesh) is the material part of man responsible for the desire of such things as food, drink, physical comfort, respect, admiration, love, acceptance, sex, etc. Therefore Paul used the word σαρχ (flesh) to express that concept, sometimes with emphasis on the material itself, and sometimes with emphasis on the desires for which it is responsible. When these desires were contrary to the desires of God for the man, we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the Spirit, the two often opposing sources of desire. When these desires were contrary to the desires of the intellect, the rational part of man, the νους (mind), we find Paul contrasting the flesh with the mind and its desires (Rom. 7:25).

Christ, in His humanity, shared this material part of man with all men (Rom. 1:3, 8:3), but He never yielded to the desires for which it is responsible. Paul taught that Christians are to identify with Christ through identifying with His death and resurrection, and to yield as Christ did, not to the desires of the flesh that result in sin, but to the desires of the Spirit that result in righteousness.

The fleshly man is the man who allows the desires of the flesh to rule his daily life; the spiritual man is the man who allows the Holy Spirit to rule his daily life, he is the man who is walking by the Spirit—and this man will not carry out the desire of the flesh, and hence he will not sin (Gal. 5:16).

Moreover, we as Christians are commanded to walk by the Spirit. Those Christians who consistently obey that command consistently live lives free from sin. Those Christians who do not consistently obey that command live lives in which sin is a daily occurrence, and many of them believe that such a life is the norm for a Christian—indeed, they do not believe that an alternative even exists.

So because a few people (Gnosticism did not really gain real power until after paul was long Gone) thought this, we should think this?

Please. Flesh means what it means, we are living in self. Self is flesh (jesus said that which is born of flesh is flesh) Paul insinuated this when he spoke of fulfilling the lust of the flesh, what is the lust of the flesh? What is lust? It is our desires. What are our desires? It is to serve self and nbot serve others. So what is it called when we give into temptation of our flesh? We fulfill th elusive of the flesh, and what is that called SIN.

Thanks.

Yes we are commanded to walk in the spirit. Do you do that 24/7? If you do, you must be perfect? Since paul says if we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lUST OF THE FLESH (self centered) ie, we will not sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

good stuff and part of the nearly to good to be true Gospel, that is never taught because of religious mindsets that love to keep people in bondage and helpless over sin.

I do not believe we are sinless or perfect at all because we are not.

I also do not believe my old man fights with my new man constantly. The old man only fights with the new man, because:

The new man is not aware he is risen with Christ
Because the new man has not crucified the old man.
There is no new man and only mental assent.

Who is in bondage to sin or teaching it? You people and your strawman arguments, do you think these claims support your view?

I pray you come out of bondage, because your in bondage to your religion. So much so you can lie about others and it does not even affect your conscious. Has it been seared? (I know mine was for years when I was just like you)

 

[PennEd]

I think it is important to remember that Paul's letter was written as a letter. If we look at the end of chapter 7 we see Paul saying this...
Rom 7:24-25 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Paul then goes on in Romans 8 to explain how we stay in the spirit...
Rom 8:9-10 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Paul is showing that it is not what we do or do not do that somehow "keeps" us in the spirit but it is what Jesus did. We stay in the spirit because God dwells inside of us and makes us righteous. What is often referred to as living a "Christian life" is a result of our righteousness in Christ and not a pathway to it.

We are further encouraged by what Paul writes at the end of Romans 8...

Rom 8:35-39 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Thank God we do not have to trust in our ability to become or stay righteous and holy! We can instead submit and have faith in Jesus instead of ourselves.

This post is really important. Thank you for stating our focus MUST be Christ-centered, NOT self-centered, AND most importantly that we MUST be born again to walk in the Spirit.

So many of these types of threads attempt to get people to focus on what THEY are doing, the sins they commit, the deeds they do, good (or so they think), and bad, INSTEAD OF WHAT OUR BEAUTIFUL LORD HAS DONE!

I believe THAT is the overarching message Paul is conveying in Chapter 7, culminating in WHO WE ARE NOW in Chapter 8.

 

[Studyman]

=Sagart;3382103]

The Bible tells us absolutely nothing about the Jews in the Church in Rome

—

Wow,

"church of Rome", and it is a particular subset of these Jews that Paul is especially ministering to in this part of his epistle. These Jews apparently believed that Jesus was the Messiah and desired to fellowship with other such Jews.

So then was Stephen murdered by this subset we were not told about? Or was he just murdered by the regular Jews?

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

Are these the Jews you say were trying to obey God with all their might?

Acts 21:10 And as we tarried there many days, there came down from Judaea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11 And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

Is this the particular sect of Jews who were trying with all their might to obey God, that we are told nothing about?

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

What Law would that be? God's Laws, or the traditions of the mainstream religion of that time?

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Are these the Jews who we are told nothing about, that try with all their might to obey God? Or are they still trying to defend their man made traditions as Jesus accused them of?

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.

What "LAW" said Gentiles couldn't turn to God? Are preachers who claim to believe in the Messiah, still promoting Jewish Customs Jesus exposed as from man and not from God? Where is the evidence they were trying with all their might to obey God. "Seek Me and Ye shall find Me". Are you saying these Jews were trying with all their Might to obey the Instructions of God, yet God rejected them?

Acts 14:19 And there came thither certain Jews from Antioch and Iconium, who persuaded the people, and, having stoned Paul, drew him out of the city, supposing he had been dead.

Are these the Jews that believed? Are these those tortured souls that struggled with all their might to follow God's Commandments?

Gal. 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Are these that certain "sect" of Jews who believed in Jesus and were trying with all their might to obey God?

Col. 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Jesus warned of "MANY" who would come in His Name and deceive people.

Your preaching that there was some secret sect of folks who accepted the Messiah, but were "Trying with all their might to obey God" and therefore failed sounds really religious, but it doesn't reflect the Bible's teaching at all.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.
6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Would Zacharias know the Messiah when He saw Him?

"So then, with my mind I am a slave to the Law of God,"

That translation is kind of deceptive, the KJV= "So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God;"

what does the Law of God say?

Duet. 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I(Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

I don't believe there is any evidence in the Bible of a secret "Church of Rome", who we are told nothing about, who were trying with all their might to obey Jesus, the creator of His Commandments.

Did Abraham "choose" to "Serve God's Laws"?

Gen. 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Is there a single example of the Faithful who didn't "serve the Laws of God"?

If I am serving the Laws of God as He instructed,

"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

and not serving traditions and doctrines of religions I was born into, is there condemnation that awaits me? Is there any example in the entire Bible of a man "Trying with all their might and heart, to Love God, obey His Voice, cling unto Him for direction and instruction that was rejected by God because they fell in sin?

The answer is no. There is not one example of a man who strived with all his heart and soul to Love God and Follow His instructions over the traditions and doctrines of man that was condemned. NOT ONE.

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

Romans 7 pretty much destroys the mainstream preaching that God's Laws are gone, or that we are free to judge His instructions and pick and choose which parts of his instruction we believe, and which parts we don't believe.

I don't think it is spiritually healthy to not consider all the scriptures Paul taught from, when trying to discern Paul.

 

[Studyman]

=Sagart;3382105]

I disagree! Romans 7 is a part of a very complex argument that began in Rom. 1:16 and continues on through Romans 8:39.

Rom.1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The Old Testament is the Gospel of Christ. Habakkuk 4:4, is where this is written. Paul believed in the Gospel of Christ, or the Old Testament.

It is from "Therein" that the Righteousness of God is revealed. But most mainstream preachers teach against this truth.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Paul is teaching that many men were destroyed and rejected of God, and goes on to explain why.

This wasn't speaking to some obscure, hidden "sect of believers", but about the examples written for our admonition in the Gospel of Christ, or the Old Testament as it is called today.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

How does one not glorify God? Is loving and obeying God with all their might and heart "glorifying God"? Noah did this, and so did Abraham. Were they part of this group whose foolish heart was darkened?

Of course not. One Glorifies God be trusting in Him over our own mind and thoughts and traditions. But these were not doing that, were they?

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The problem with these preachers of that time is they had replaced the true God and His instructions with their own version of God and their own instructions.

Just like Eve did.

They still claimed belief, but by their works they denied Him.

Without this truth as a foundation, then everything else built on Romans will be faulty.

In the fifth chapter of Romans Paul wrote,

R

om. 5:20. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

What Law "Came in" so that transgression would increase? You can't know that by jumping from Rom. 1:15 to Rom. 5.

Rom. 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


Doer's of what Law? Of course todays mainstream preachers teach there is only one law and it includes the sacrificing of animals for the remission of sins. But Paul tell us otherwise.

Rom. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Again, without this truth as part of the foundation, there is no way to understand what Paul is saying later in the Chapter.

This verse gives rise to a question that is asked in the sixth chapter of Romans,

Rom. 6:1. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?

"God forbid"

The rest of the sixth chapter of Romans is Paul’s answer to that question, and the answer continues through the first 6 verses of chapter 7,

The question was answered, "God forbid" which means NO. WE DON'T continue to Transgress God's Commandments by our own traditions and doctrines. He goes on to explain the answer.

Rom. 7:1. Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2. For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4. Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5. For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6. But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Notice that Paul wrote in verse 4 that we were made to die to the Law (the covenant of Law found in the Old Testament). This verse gives rise to two new questions that are asked in the following verse,

Be careful that you don't miss-interpret Paul reason for the answer he already for the question.

Do we continue to transgress God's Commandments because we were forgiven our past sins? The Answer he gave was a resounding NO!!!

Rom. 7:7. What shall we say then? Is the Law sin?

GOD FORBID!!

Again, he answered the question, and the answer is NO!!

He goes on to explain the answer, not give it.

The rest of verse 7 through verse 12 answers that question but gives rise to another question,

Rom. 7:13a. Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me?

GOD FORBID!!!

Again, He answers the question in a plain and concise way that leaves no room for error by the reader.

Do we continue in transgression of God's Law? NO!!

Is the Law sin? NO!!

Was then that which is good (God's Laws) made death unto me? NO!!

He goes on each time to explain his answers, but his answers were not confusing or hard to understand. He didn't beat around the bush, he answered the questions directly and concisely.

The rest of verse 13 answers that question by saying,

Rom. 7:13b. May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

Paul is telling us that death, a very steep penalty, was issued for the transgression of God's Commandment to show us how wicked, evil and most exceedingly bad disobedience to God is.

This is a continuation of the Romans 1 beginning to show what happens to a man when they reject God's instructions and create their own.

In Rom. 7:14-25, Paul elaborates upon that answer. The real cause of death is not the Law; it is sin, but death is effected through the Law. Paul explains this through an illustration in which a Jew who loves the Law attempts to keep it but finds that he is not able to do so because he is made of natural flesh and the Law is spiritual. That is why a man must die to the Law as taught in Romans 6 and be born again.

This statement goes against the entire teaching's of the Gospel of Christ. There were Jews who loved God and His instructions, and those were praised by the Word of God, not rejected.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Jesus said the same thing;

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


Any Jew or Gentile can come to the Light, and it will expose their "WORKS" whether they be from God or from man. If our "works" traditions, doctrines, come from man, then we are in need of repentance and a change of heart.

But men love darkness, and not light because they are carnal, they hate God and His instructions. But as Jesus told Cain from the very beginning, "Ye shall rule over this sin". or Paul, "Sin (Death) shall not have dominion over you".

Same message as the Gospel of Christ.

Gen. 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

In Rom. 8:1-4 Paul summarizes what he has been writing,

Rom. 8:1. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4. so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Many people have read into Romans 7 their own condition and imagined that Paul was writing about his experience in that condition, but we know from other things that Paul wrote that his condition was never like that,

How can you understand Paul if you don't acknowledge that the mainstream preachers of his time and before were NOT trying with all their might to love God and keep His Commandments? This teaching can not be supported by the Gospel anywhere. In fact the Gospel teaches just the exact opposite.

The Jews Jesus rejected, who killed Him, were the same Jews who rejected Paul and tried to kill him. There is zero evidence that these mainstream preachers were "Trying with all their might to follow God's Instructions". None.

Yet "many" in the mainstream religions of today, teach that the Pharisees and Jews were trying to obey God's Commandments, and not their own traditions and doctrines of men they created. Didn't Jesus specifically preach that "Many" would come in His name to deceive?

And how will they deceive us?

By tricking us to: "That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days:"?

Rom. 5:8. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. (NASB, 1995)

1 Cor. 4:1. Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.
2. In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy.
3. But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.
4. For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord.
5. Therefore do not go on passing judgment before the time, but wait until the Lord comes who will both bring to light the things hidden in the darkness and disclose the motives of men's hearts; and then each man's praise will come to him from God.

What are the motives in the heart of men who create images of God after the likeness of men? What are the motives of the heart of men who create their own High Days and reject God's Words?

Phil. 3:6. as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

You omitted a lot of Pauls words here that shed light on the true meaning of his statements.

Phil. 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

So then his flesh does not rule over him, just as Jesus taught Cain.

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

When did Jesus ever say a Pharisee was following God's Laws? Just give me one instance.

Paul was a Pharisee, he followed the traditions and doctrines of the Pharisees perfectly.

What Law of God directed the Pharisees to persecute a Church led by Jesus? What Law of God justified the Pharisees traditions and doctrines?

You see, these foundational issues are important. You build this great wonderful sounding sermon based on a falsehood that the Jews were "Trying to obey God's Laws with all their heart and failed". Everything you preach on this false foundation is flawed because of it. I say this not to offend, but as a brother.

Phil. 4:9. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.

Did Paul follow God's Commandments? Or did He create His own? Did Paul transgress the Commandments of God by his own church traditions and doctrines? Did he teach others to do so. Did Paul follow God's Holy Days, or did he create his own huge "feasts unto the Lord"?

The key to the correct understanding of Romans 7:14-25 is that the man being described is striving to keep the Law but failing to do so. Christians have died to the Law and therefore do not strive to keep it.

Yet this same Paul said: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

And again:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

And again: Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

And again: Acts 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Christians have died to the Law and therefore do not strive to keep it.

Yet Paul did!!!