What does a "liberally progressive Christian" mean?
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I believe that a genocide has been practiced and will continue to do so until the US Supreme Court declares Roe v Wade is invalid. The argument was not based on whether or not a law was unconstitutional prohibiting abortion but rather a liberal courts view on creating their own law based on a woman's right to privacy. If Congress were to pass a law declaring the unborn to be human the Court would have no choice but to go along with the law. Personally, I have no problem with a state declaring abortion to be illegal but then, a federal court always interferes based on a previous grievous flawed ruling.
Based on federal and state financial assistance programs I would say that this is simply not true. Babies are born out of wedlock or the financial means to take care of them because of these programs. The federal government is enabling an endless cycle of poverty. The main reason a baby is aborted is because human life is not sacred or valued. Aborting a baby is a matter of convenience and a relative easy way out of a difficult situation. Problem solved, nothing at all to do with poverty. According to the bible poverty will never be eliminated. A vast decline of abortions will happen when the US government decides that the unborn child in the womb of the mother has value and is just as human as the rest of us.
That's alright, this country is a republic and not a democracy. Let the states decide. Many would do so. If you want to kill your baby you would have to jet to California or New York. I can live with that. That is why it is critical that Republican presidents are elected because of who they appoint to the US Supreme Court. If Trump can appoint another justice Roe v Wade will be overturned. I'm primary a Republican because their platform is for the unborn. If that were to change I would either stop voting or become an independent.
There are many topics which the Bible does not specifically address.
When we're discussing these topics, I think we should be careful in differentiating "opinions" from "biblical mandates".
Beastslayer said "I do not think..." showing he has a strong opinion about something, and he also stated it in a way to show it's his opinion, not a mandate.
That's perfectly fine.
It's perfectly fine for him to have opinions, and share them.
In fact, if he truly feels we need to hear something, and he fails to share it, that would actually be sin.
So I have no problem with beastslayer giving his honest opinion, but I am going to use his statements as a "jumping off" point to discuss some principles I think are pertinent.
There are areas where the Bible is silent or vague:
Therefore, I would just caution everyone, as a general rule, to remain generous, and afford others some liberty in these areas where the scripture is silent or vague.
As humans we all tend to draw inferences where we shouldn't... and we can turn opinions into mandates... we all do this at times, and so we all need to be vigilant of this natural weakness we all tend to have.
So it's fine for Beastslayer to feel churches should remain small, and that a smaller church is a more effective model.
Maybe he has a lot of good reasoning for this.
That's perfectly fine, and he SHOULD be sharing his opinions and reasoning with us.
But even if he has good reasoning, that does not mean we can infer his "wise opinion" is a mandate if there is no actual mandate in scripture.
We need to be careful when we talk about methodologies.
There are many methodological areas where scripture is silent or vague... and we should think about WHY this is.
Why would there be so many methodological issues about which the Bible is silent or vague?
Why are things silent or vague?
Since God makes no mistakes, and God is often very detailed and specific, then WHY would God at times be silent or vague on certain issues?
It can't possibly be a mistake, or some kind of oversight.
If God makes something CONSPICUOUSLY ABSENT, it can only be INTENTIONAL... just as all things done by God are intentional.
So what could be the INTENTION for God being SILENT or VAGUE on certain issues, primarily methodological issues?
What would be the reason to AVOID SPECIFICITY on some methodological issues?
It would have to mean specificity on that issue would somehow work AGAINST God's plans.
Well what kinds of PLANS would need to LACK SPECIFICITY?
These would be plans which REQUIRE LIBERTY... plans which REQUIRE FREEDOM and CREATIVITY to act and react as situations change.
Therefore, there are no biblical mandates in methodological areas in which God knows we will need liberty.
Liberty
In different times, and different cultures, we need liberty in "some things" to effectively function and minister the gospel.
I think this is common sense to everyone.
- We have no mandate for a specific time to start church services because that should be determined by the needs of the local church.
- We have no mandate for how many kids should be in Sunday School, or even for Sunday School to exist at all, because that should be determined by the needs of the local church.
- We could give endless examples.
I would suggest that the precise size of a congregation is one of these methodological things which falls under the category of "liberty."
And yet, beastslayer may be right that a smaller church is better.
I don't share his view on this, but his view may well be the best view.
Bad Liberty
There are also, obviously, some methodologies which take so much liberty they become sinful... like guys cursing from the pulpit and claiming it helps them to "connect with the youth.".
There are people out there doing all kinds of awful things, claiming they have "liberty" to do so, and it's obvious, in some cases, it's just an excuse to be ignorant or sinful.
Conclusion:
So, at the end of the day, we follow the scripture, and where the scripture is silent or vague, we are free to employ our liberty... but even here, we still employ that liberty under the constraints of biblical wisdom.
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So what size church is acceptable to you? Do you notice how the seeker-friendly, mega sized, concert-driven, video multi-campus, local preaching multi-campus church models are actually destroying the local avg sized church?
They do not care about people, they care about their brand and agenda. When worship is placed above the Word, we have an issue.
They do not care about people, they care about their brand and agenda. When worship is placed above the Word, we have an issue.
Hey Beastslayer,
Here are some of my thoughts, let me know if they clarify my position for you.
I agree with you there are problems.
I agree with you about some of the causes of these problems.
I'll agree that smaller churches might be a solution to some of these things.
But as far as "church size", I'm afraid my position is really kind of a non-position.
* I believe that on some issues we are given liberty to do whatever best serves the ministry of the gospel in a given situation, and that as far as I'm aware God has not prescribed any particular church size.
* Also, it's possible that smaller churches might provide a solution, but if they do, it's not mandated solution.
just messing with you, thank you for the clarification.quite right and thanks for the reminder.
The slick set up is this.
The movements come into larger urban areas like Denver. They creep in unnoticed and begin hosting free Sunday night "Worship services"[ aka concerts] in large venues like the Denver Pepsi Center. After a month they go dark and quiet for about another month, then they creep in unnoticed again and this time a little bit smaller venue like a Huge well known Denver Mega church. They do free concerts on Sunday nights, but this time they announce they are in partnership with this single host Church.
Another month goes by and then they go dark again. Then within a week to 10 days it is announced the movement has now taken over a very large venue and a new campus is launched, out of the main campus, smaller campuses are launched in sub-cites of the Denver metropolis. Arvada, Boulder, Westminster, Golden, Lone Tree, Co Springs, etc are taken over.
Local Churches and Pastors alike are ran over and disregarded. The new campus, worships for 35 minutes, the offering is 15 minutes and some relevant minded motivation speaker gives a 10 minute 3 point pat on the head feel good talk and ushers them all out the door, because the next show starts in 30 minutes.
These places are simply too big to deal one on one with people and their issues. This is the concert-driven church this is what is being pushed by the NAR and Other world wide media companies, doing something called church every now and then.
The slick set up is this.
The movements come into larger urban areas like Denver. They creep in unnoticed and begin hosting free Sunday night "Worship services"[ aka concerts] in large venues like the Denver Pepsi Center. After a month they go dark and quiet for about another month, then they creep in unnoticed again and this time a little bit smaller venue like a Huge well known Denver Mega church. They do free concerts on Sunday nights, but this time they announce they are in partnership with this single host Church.
Another month goes by and then they go dark again. Then within a week to 10 days it is announced the movement has now taken over a very large venue and a new campus is launched, out of the main campus, smaller campuses are launched in sub-cites of the Denver metropolis. Arvada, Boulder, Westminster, Golden, Lone Tree, Co Springs, etc are taken over.
Local Churches and Pastors alike are ran over and disregarded. The new campus, worships for 35 minutes, the offering is 15 minutes and some relevant minded motivation speaker gives a 10 minute 3 point pat on the head feel good talk and ushers them all out the door, because the next show starts in 30 minutes.
These places are simply too big to deal one on one with people and their issues. This is the concert-driven church this is what is being pushed by the NAR and Other world wide media companies, doing something called church every now and then.
