Leader of First Church, James the Just or Peter?

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Nov 22, 2017
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#1
In the Gospel of Thomas, we have the following verse:
(12)

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “We know that you will depart from us. Who (then) will rule over us?”
(2) Jesus said to them: “No matter where you came from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

Does this refute the Catholic claim that Peter is the rock that the church would be built on?
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#2
Matthew 16:18
Now I say to you that you are Peter (which means 'rock'), and upon this rock I will build my church, and all the powers of hell will not conquer it.

So, yeah, it's actually in the bible.
Catholics are claiming this verse is Peter's appointment as first Pope.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#3
Jesus......Peter was not leader of anything....he was not the 1st Pope

Peter is called little stone and contradicted again JESUS which is the ROCK that the Lord's churches are built upon.....
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
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#4
In the Gospel of Thomas, we have the following verse:
(12)

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “We know that you will depart from us. Who (then) will rule over us?”
(2) Jesus said to them: “No matter where you came from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

Does this refute the Catholic claim that Peter is the rock that the church would be built on?
The gospel of Thomas is a counterfeit document and not reliable for doctrine.

Jesus Christ is building His church and it is not an organization but an organism of living souls.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Jun 8, 2016
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#5
In the Gospel of Thomas, we have the following verse:
(12)

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “We know that you will depart from us. Who (then) will rule over us?”
(2) Jesus said to them: “No matter where you came from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

Does this refute the Catholic claim that Peter is the rock that the church would be built on?
The Gospel of Thomas also claims that women must become males to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

(114) " Simon Peter said to him, "Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life." Jesus said, "I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven." (http://gnosis.org/naghamm/gthlamb.html)

It is as Roger has said, the Gospel of Thomas is not a reliable source of doctrine.

Peace.



 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
5,928
685
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#6
It certainly looks like James was calling the shots at the church in Jerusalem:

Acts 15:13 After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me.

Acts 15:19 “Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
3,468
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#7
In the Gospel of Thomas, we have the following verse:
(12)

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “We know that you will depart from us. Who (then) will rule over us?”
(2) Jesus said to them: “No matter where you came from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

Does this refute the Catholic claim that Peter is the rock that the church would be built on?
There is no gospel of thomas... and it should not be quoted in a Christian forum..

Oh and i am not a supporter of the catholic church either..

So in this case two wrongs don't make a right...
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
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#8
Most of us do not recognize the Gospel of Thomas as Scripture.

Mt 16:15-20
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
KJV



18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

thou art Peter, and upon this,,,,,,, rock I will build .. my church
σὺ ,,,,εἶ Πέτρος καὶ ἐπὶ ,,,,ταύτῇ
τῇ πέτρα οἰκοδομήσω μου ἐκκλησίαν

Here we see that Peter (Πέτρος ) is called pebble; and we need to determine what rock (πέτρα )refers to.

The rock (πέτρα ) can either refer to Peter's confession in verse 16 which was spiritually discerned; or it can Refer to Jesus, who is elsewhere called the Rock. A third possibility is that the Rock refers to the cliff face at Cessarea Philipii in which there
are 3 caves each a temple to a different idol. One of the caves was called 'the gates of Hell (Hades) and the church of Santa Sofia was built on the spot.

19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

the keys of the kingdom are symbolic of authority to teach. The disciples of a rabbi were given the keys of the synagogue when they were deemed ready to teach. What was to be permitted or forbidden was also to be spiritually discerned.

The same authority was later given to all the apostles.
 
Feb 7, 2015
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#10
If Peter was all that and a bag of chips, Paul probably would not have called him out for hypocritically ignoring the Gentiles, and instead, eating with James'representives and the other boys from the headquarters in Jerusalem when they came to Antioch to visit his group some thirty-odd years after Jesus died.
 
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Mar 28, 2016
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#11
Christ is the Alfa and Omega . It’s not the beginning of building of the first church as Christ’s eternal bride. But one that was being restored when the time of reformation came the new form of government received its roots which began with Able the first mentioned member of the bride of Christ. .

And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.Mat 16:17-18


The it in both verses above represents that which did not come from flesh and Blood (Peter or any man) it is the gospel of Christ .. The gospel is not after Peter the "greatest revealed denier". To appoint Peter as the gospel key is to offend God.

God knew beforehand that men would look to Peter in the same way men on the other side of the cross would look to the person of Abraham to our Holy Father in heaven . The church is not built on sinners as the things of men . One is our father in heaven we are to call no man on earth , not Abraham or Peter to our Father not seen .

Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Mat 16:22
 
Apr 15, 2017
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#12
In the Gospel of Thomas, we have the following verse:
(12)

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “We know that you will depart from us. Who (then) will rule over us?”
(2) Jesus said to them: “No matter where you came from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

Does this refute the Catholic claim that Peter is the rock that the church would be built on?
How can the so called Gospel of Thomas make the bold claim that heaven and earth came in to being because of James the Just,for who is he that is so special,for he is only a person like all the rest of the people,and God said what makes you different from another person.

Jesus said that born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist,and that includes James,Peter,and Mary,for John had the Spirit in the womb,not manifest in flesh,and not to save him,but to give John power to be able to live the right lifestyle for he was to prepare the way for Jesus in the future.

Jesus said upon this rock I will build My Church as He was speaking to Peter,and the keys to the kingdom were given to him for he preached the first message to get the Church going.

The Church is built upon Christ,and no one else,for He is the chief cornerstone,and no other foundation can be laid but Christ.

But Peter is the first person to be added to the Church built upon Christ,and then the rest built upon each other as they come to the truth like a building of bricks.

The whole Church is built upon Peter,after Christ,for he is the first one added to the Church.

If Jesus was referring to Himself as the rock all the Church is built upon Him,and if He was referring to Peter then all the Church is still built upon Jesus,but all the Church after Jesus is built upon Peter.

Peter was not the first Pope,and Peter had a problem of fearing the circumcision,Jews,for he would eat with the Gentile saints,but when they came around he would leave the Gentiles to eat with the Jews,and Paul withstood him to the face,and said he did not walk uprightly according to the Gospel of truth,for Peter was to be blamed.

We only follow Christ,who is the head of the Church,not the Pope was claims to be the head of the Church,but is not.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#13
Thomas confirms what many historians have always said about James. IMO rome had their translators edit this out of the bible or remove the books that mention it. i think they wanted to suggest the church started with Peter and rome rather than James and Jerusalem.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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#14
Thomas confirms what many historians have always said about James. IMO rome had their translators edit this out of the bible or remove the books that mention it. i think they wanted to suggest the church started with Peter and rome rather than James and Jerusalem.
"The Church" did not start with James...

John prepared the material, Jesus CALLED THEM OUT and they (the disciples) are identified as A CHURCH no less than two times in present context while JESUS was on this earth leading HIS DISCIPLES......JESUS started HIS CHURCH NOT PETER, JAMES, JOHN or any other man.......end of story!
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#15
"The Church" did not start with James...

John prepared the material, Jesus CALLED THEM OUT and they (the disciples) are identified as A CHURCH no less than two times in present context while JESUS was on this earth leading HIS DISCIPLES......JESUS started HIS CHURCH NOT PETER, JAMES, JOHN or any other man.......end of story!
i dont thnk it did either and yes, now i see how it looks like thats what (it all started with James) i was saying. what i was trying to say was that rome (the empire) would lead people to believe the home base, the heart of the faith was not Jerusalem but the city of rome. make sense?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#16
In the Gospel of Thomas, we have the following verse:
(12)

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “We know that you will depart from us. Who (then) will rule over us?”
(2) Jesus said to them: “No matter where you came from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

Does this refute the Catholic claim that Peter is the rock that the church would be built on?
You are quoting the Gospel of Thomas, which is a fabricated Gospel originating with the Gnostics.

It has no part in our understanding of Scripture, and it does contain some heretical teachings. The very phrase "for whose sake heaven and earth came into being" is preposterous.

While Peter was the apostle to the Jews, it would appear that James was the leading elder in the Church at Jerusalem after Pentecost. So they should both be considered leaders of that church
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#17
You are quoting the Gospel of Thomas, which is a fabricated Gospel originating with the Gnostics.
it didnt "originate" with the gnostics. just because a copy was found in a gnostic library doesnt mean they wrote it. another Thomas scroll was found at Oxyrhynchus Egypt right alongside many NT scrolls such as Mathew, Mark, John and Romans.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
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#18
it didnt "originate" with the gnostics. just because a copy was found in a gnostic library doesnt mean they wrote it. another Thomas scroll was found at Oxyrhynchus Egypt right alongside many NT scrolls such as Mathew, Mark, John and Romans.
Regardless. It is not canonical, not inspired, and heretical. That's the real issue.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#19
Regardless. It is not canonical, not inspired, and heretical. That's the real issue.
its cited by early church fathers before rome ever got involved when Christianity was in a more pure form.

its not canon because a council of men say its not canon, which means nothing. so what if its considered heretical, the Nazarenes, the sect of Jesus, were called heretics. and these same councils that decide whos a heretic are the same ones that thought it was a good idea to burn people alive. IMO one should be lead by the spirit rather than lead by a council. does Jesus have any teachings on following councils?
 
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OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
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#20
In the Gospel of Thomas, we have the following verse:
(12)

(1) The disciples said to Jesus: “We know that you will depart from us. Who (then) will rule over us?”
(2) Jesus said to them: “No matter where you came from, you should go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being.”

Does this refute the Catholic claim that Peter is the rock that the church would be built on?

Jesus is the rock on which the church is built- not Peter. And the book of Thomas is not in the Bible, it is not scripture.