Paul the Liar?

[Karraster]

Hi Lightbearer, I've enjoyed reading your posts. It seems a shame how rude and ugly some posters have been to you, then again, I suppose that's how it works. Often it's that contrast that makes readers take notice. There are more readers here than posters, and like me, they've probably noticed you remained polite and calm despite being accused of all sorts of things.

I agree with your insight about Paul. Thanks for sharing these marvelous truths.

 

[Grandpa]

There's a lot of judaizers and legalists that don't like what Paul has to say.

It is no surprise that these types would like a poster who calls Paul a liar.

 

[stonesoffire]

Sister, I do not mind being wrong, yet it sounds more like you're asserting I'm wrong about his person than about what he poorly conveyed in his OP topic.

I know him preacher. Thats all.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Paul's words are the Lord's words. You attack Paul, you attack the Lord.

Boom!!! Bam!!!

 

[stonesoffire]

Yes it has! How goes it my good Spirited friend?

Me too. Tough topic. Many have no idea what Paul was saying so they just gross over the text and give it no mind or take the word of some theologian who goes out side of the context of the text to explain it.

What is really disappointing here is the knee jerked responses and the way the band wagon was so easily filled....

It takes time to break the ice on any forum. Where we both came from is totally different than here too. But, I'm sure things will smooth out. It took me time to settle in.

Anyway, am really glad to see you here. They need moderators here too...hint hint. Lol

 

[mcubed]

​

Romans 3New International Version (NIV)

God’s Faithfulness

3 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their unfaithfulness nullify God’s faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every human being a liar.As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”[a]

5 But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly,what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!
No One Is Righteous

9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”[b]
13 “Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14 “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.
Righteousness Through Faith

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousnessis given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Is this what you are talking about all people need a Savior(Y-shua) Jew and Non-Jew)? Context of this Scripture. If not I do not understand....

 

[MarcR]

I disagree. What I do know is that Paul probably had lied in his life, but the text is not referencing him specifically. Gill and many others agree.



I don't know, he hasn't been clear on that either. I think we lost contact after the assertions I threw pronouns at him, which never took place. (he also alluded in his post others did this with "you guys")



I tried that with my first post in asking for clarification as to his OP. Never got that. Got dismissed because others understand him elsewhere, then the post that I threw pronouns at him came afterwards. Other(s) also got some similar responses initially.

After all that some of us saw him as possibly anti-Pauline due to the lack of clarification and snark.

Looking back over the thread I think you may be right.

I dislike being accusatory when there seem to be other explanations.

When I posted that I thouhht the lie was hypothetical, he agreed with me; but he hasn't been consistent.

Perhaps he is playing us.

 

[lightbearer]

Re: Hello

There's a lot of judaizers and legalists that don't like what Paul has to say.

Paul shares the best explanation of the Gospel through his writings. If they don't like Paul or what he has to say, they don't like the Gospel and 1/2 of the New Testament.

It is no surprise that these types would like a poster who calls Paul a liar.

Paul called himself a liar in regards to his admitted unrighteous state of unbelief. I just believed him and shared it.
That is what has been shared. Mind you. Paul says in regards to those in unbelief, Those who are or have n
been in unbelief; disobedient vs. 3. Let every man be a liar in verse 4 is stated in regards to that. and then in verse 5 he says "our unrighteousness". That "our unrighteousness" is stated in the first person plural. Which means Paul was including himself. But actually what Paul is saying is our lie. Our disobedient unbelief in vs. 3. Contextually that is the last unrighteousness that Paul was referring to. So with that Paul has established that all men outside of Christ are in fact unfaithful liars. Including himself in that; because verse 5 is spoken in the first person plural.

So having established that Paul then states "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom 3:7 KJV)

The word for is "gar" in the Greek This word is used to assign a reason for something that is previously stated.That is why it is commonly translated "for".

In other words what is about to be said is connected to what was before not after. Which makes sense. Paul had already stated in the 1 person plural that he also was unrighteous, therefore in unbelief; Therefore a liar outside of Christ.

For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of GOD. Including Paul prior to his conversion.

So that is Paul's lie. His sharing the oracles of GOD outside of Christ even though he himself had not lived up to the standards put forth.

His unrighteousness commended the righteousness of GOD because the truth of GOD still abounded. Because he as of the rest of Israel were sharing the Oracles or at the very least keepers of it even though they were in unbelief; living in unrighteousness; liars.

 

[lightbearer]

Your reading it wrong read the whole chapter again but read it from 2 different bible versions (The whole chapter)

He's not saying he is a liar he is saying it like quoting people.
And he's saying what they are thinking is wrong

In verse 3 He uses a word for unbelief that implies disobedience. In verse 4 in regards to GOD's righteous Judgement he says let every man be a liar; those who are in disobedient unbelief. He then in vs. 5 in the first person plural connects this lying. This disobedient unbelief to unrighteousness. He says "if our unrighteousness".
This is being stated in the first person plural. This statement he includes himself. The everyman a liar due to our state of unbelief. Our failure without Christ to live up to the standards put forth in the Word of God. For all have sinned (including Paul) and fall short of the Glory of GOD. But now the righteousness of GOD without the Law is made apparent (manifested) apart (without) from the Law. Even the righteousness of GOD which is through the faith of Jesus Christ. Into all and upon all the ones believing. So say not in our heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word (Christ) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach!

This is the Faith that is through Jesus Christ, that the righteousness of GOD be in all and upon all.

 

[lightbearer]

Hello mcubed

​

Is this what you are talking about all people need a Savior(Y-shua) Jew and Non-Jew)? Context of this Scripture. If not I do not understand....

In short yes! Paul includes himself in verse five when he states "our unrighteousness". For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD. Making all men outside of Christ false witnesses (liars). Including Paul!

 

[lightbearer]

Good morning stonersoffire!

It takes time to break the ice on any forum. Where we both came from is totally different than here too. But, I'm sure things will smooth out. It took me time to settle in.

I love these places stones! For me they have been an excellent addition to my devotional life through the years. Great catalyst in instigating Bible study! Excellent opportunity to witness through Christ also!

Anyway, am really glad to see you here.

We hadn't always seen eye to eye; but You always had a special place in my heart. So with all the mushy stuff out of the way! Glad to see you here also!

They need moderators here too...hint hint. Lol

Come Jesus come! The Ultimate Moderator!

 

[Grandpa]

Re: Hello

Paul shares the best explanation of the Gospel through his writings. If they don't like Paul or what he has to say, they don't like the Gospel and 1/2 of the New Testament.
Paul called himself a liar in regards to his admitted unrighteous state of unbelief. I just believed him and shared it.
That is what has been shared. Mind you. Paul says in regards to those in unbelief, Those who are or have n
been in unbelief; disobedient vs. 3. Let every man be a liar in verse 4 is stated in regards to that. and then in verse 5 he says "our unrighteousness". That "our unrighteousness" is stated in the first person plural. Which means Paul was including himself. But actually what Paul is saying is our lie. Our disobedient unbelief in vs. 3. Contextually that is the last unrighteousness that Paul was referring to. So with that Paul has established that all men outside of Christ are in fact unfaithful liars. Including himself in that; because verse 5 is spoken in the first person plural.

So having established that Paul then states "For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom 3:7 KJV)

The word for is "gar" in the Greek This word is used to assign a reason for something that is previously stated.That is why it is commonly translated "for".

In other words what is about to be said is connected to what was before not after. Which makes sense. Paul had already stated in the 1 person plural that he also was unrighteous, therefore in unbelief; Therefore a liar outside of Christ.

For all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of GOD. Including Paul prior to his conversion.

So that is Paul's lie. His sharing the oracles of GOD outside of Christ even though he himself had not lived up to the standards put forth.

His unrighteousness commended the righteousness of GOD because the truth of GOD still abounded. Because he as of the rest of Israel were sharing the Oracles or at the very least keepers of it even though they were in unbelief; living in unrighteousness; liars.

I know what Paul is saying.

But those who hate him, not so much.

 

[oldethennew]

Paul, my hero, after Christ!

 

[oldethennew]

and then, the others who were and are so 'worthy'...
we Love them ALL, and we Love the 'work' that they performed
in order for all of us whom God has chosen, called, and elected!!!

 

[Bogadile]

If we did not know the information contained in the writings of Paul, what would the gospel be?

 

[stonesoffire]

We hadn't always seen eye to eye

Yeah, but the foundation is what matters. No other foundation laid than Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Am getting soft as I get older. And I have no idea what you are saying here lol

 

[FrankLee]

Paul was speaking hypothetically. He redresses those who say "Let us do evil that good may come".

He is not advocating nor confessing lying to promote the gospel.