Paul the Liar?

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lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#1
Paul the liar.
In Romans 3:7 Paul says.' For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?"(Rom 3:7 LITV-TSP)



So once again I ask, "what was Paul's lie?"



Let's start in verse 3:5 this time.



Paul through the Spirit includes himself in his statement in verse five when he says, But if our unrighteousness (our lie vs. 4; our unfaithfulness; vs. 3). He is states, (speaking as a man) even through our unrighteousness; our lie; our unfaithfulnes the righteousness of God (the oracles; the Holy Writ; that to which we can be justified (upright) in our words, and we overcome in our being judged. vs.4 ) still got commended; exhibited.

So is GOD unrighteous exhibiting wrath against those who choose to live thusly?



In verse six he answers emphatically in collation with what he previously said in verse four, "That You should be justified (upright) in Your words, and will overcome in Your being judged". He answers, "Let it not be; Otherwise, how will God judge the world?"



Then in verse seven he connects what he is about to say with the Greek word "gar" to what was previously stated. This word is a primary particle; to which assigns reason (Strong's #1063) to things previously stated. More often translated "for".



So he is continuing his argument from man's perspective (vs.5 ). Reiterating what he said corporately in verse 5, but this time he is speaking in the first person. He says, "For if in my lie (my unrighteousness; my unfaithfulness through not adhering to all that which is given in the Holy Writ) the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?"



And not (as we are wrongly accused, and as some report us to say), Let us do bad things so that good things may come, ( in other words why not just continue on the same course of unrighteous, unfaithfulness because the oracles; the Holy Writ; GOD's righteousness is still getting commended; promoted). And then emphatically to the man argument because GOD will judge the world (vs. 6). He condemns such thinking by saying, "The judgment of whom is just."



This is not the only place I have tried to share this. So with that being said. In trying to see someone else's argument I looked in a few reference books. Interestingly enough I could not find anything to support their argument. But to my glee I did find citations to support what was given to me. Here they are.



Henry Alford’s The Greek New Testament

Romans 3:7

7.] This follows (connected by γάρ) upon Rom_3:6, and shews that the supposition if carried out, would overthrow all God’s judgment, and (Rom_3:8) the whole moral life of man. How shall God judge the world? FOR, if the truth (faithfulness) of God abounded (was manifested, more clearly established) by means of my falsehood (unfaithfulness), to His glory (so that the result has been the setting forth of His glory), why any longer (ἔτι, this being so,—assuming the premises) am I also (i.e. as well as others,—am I to be involved in a judgment from which I ought to be exempt) judged (to be judged,—the pres. expressing the rule or habit of God’s proceeding) as a sinner?



Clarkes Commentary

Romans 3:7



Jew. For if the truth of God, etc. - But to resume my reasoning (Rom_3:5): If the faithfulness of God in keeping his promise made to our fathers is, through our unfaithfulness, made far more glorious than it otherwise would have been, why should we then be blamed for that which must redound so much to the honor of God?



From Expositor's Greek New Testament



....A Jew is the speaker, or at all events the Apostle speaks in the character of one: “if my unbelief does magnify His faithfulness, is not that all that is required? Why am I, too, like the rest of the world, whose relation to God is so different, and whose judgment is so necessary, still brought into judgment?”...



From Vincent Word Studies

Lie (ψεύσματι)



Only here in the New Testament. The expression carries us back to Rom_3:4, and is general for moral falsehood, unfaithfulness to the claims of conscience and of God, especially with reference to the proffer of salvation through Christ.





From the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

Romans 3:7



For if, &c.] Here St Paul takes up the Opponent on his own ground; speaking as a human being whose sin (e.g. a falsehood) serves to make God’s truth “abound to His glory;” i.e. be more largely manifest in a way to win Him fresh praise:—in such a case is not Paul, is not A, B, or C, equally entitled with the Jewish opponent to be excused penalty?—In the Gr. of the clause “why am I yet, &c.,” the word “I” is strongly emphatic; I also; i.e. “I, as well as my opponent.”—“Why am I yet, &c.:”—i.e. “after the recognition of the effect of my sin on the advancement of God’s glory.”—“By my lie;” lit. in my lie; i.e. “on occasion of it, in connexion with it.”



John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes

Romans 3:7

But, may the objector reply, if the truth of God hath abounded - Has been more abundantly shown. Through my lie - If my lie, that is, practice contrary to truth, conduces to the glory of God, by making his truth shine with superior advantage. Why am I still judged as a sinner - Can this be said to be any sin at all? Ought I not to do what would otherwise be evil, that so much "good may come?" To this the apostle does not deign to give a direct answer, but cuts the objector short with a severe reproof.



May GOD bless and keep you and keep us in HIS Way; Jesus Christ!! Happy Thanksgiving!!!
 
May 11, 2014
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#2
I cannot make heads or tails of this.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#3
I cannot make heads or tails of this.
So read it again please. It is not an easy study. If you are having issues with a specific commen; ask and I will try to clarify.
The commentaries supplied should help also.
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#4
That text is not about any Paul's lie.

---

"But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?

Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”?

Their condemnation is just!"


Rom 3 NIV

---

Paul is talking about various wrong implications and slanders that were around. Not about him. And he clearly condemned such logic.
 
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lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#5
That text is not about any Paul's lie.

---

"But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?

Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”?

Their condemnation is just!"


Rom 3 NIV

---

Paul is talking about various wrong implications and slanders that were around. Not about him. And he clearly condemned such logic.
No! Someone might argue is not in the Greek text. The NIV added that.
In verse 5 He includes himself by his use of the word "our". And verse seven is being spoken in the first person and starts with the word "for" which assigns a reason for what was previously stated. . Please take the time to view the op. My commentary could be hard to follow; so it will take time to get through it while you look at the text also.
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#6
No! Someone might argue is not in the Greek text. The NIV added that.
In verse 5 He includes himself by his use of the word "our". And verse seven is being spoken in the first person and starts with the word "for" which assigns a reason for what was previously stated. . Please take the time to view the op. My commentary could be hard to follow; so it will take time to get through it while you look at the text also.
You are right its not literally in the Greek text, but the meaning is as NIV presented (thats why it is not always best to read literal translations):

[not here] εἰ δὲ ἡ ἀλήθεια τοῦ Θεοῦ ἐν τῷ ἐμῷ ψεύσματι ἐπερίσσευσεν εἰς τὴν δόξαν αὐτοῦ, τί ἔτι κἀγὼ ὡς ἁμαρτωλὸς κρίνομαι;
καὶ μὴ καθὼς βλασφημούμεθα καὶ καθώς φασίν τινες ἡμᾶς λέγειν ὅτι Ποιήσωμεν τὰ κακὰ ἵνα ἔλθῃ τὰ ἀγαθά; ὧν τὸ κρίμα ἔνδικόν ἐστιν.

---

Paul frequently stylizes himself into various positions to attack it later. Its his style of writing. Sometimes, he places himself "under the law" to prove something, even though it is not his claim that he actually is etc.
 
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J

joefizz

Guest
#7
Paul the liar.
In Romans 3:7 Paul says.' For if in my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?"(Rom 3:7 LITV-TSP)



So once again I ask, "what was Paul's lie?"



Let's start in verse 3:5 this time.



Paul through the Spirit includes himself in his statement in verse five when he says, But if our unrighteousness (our lie vs. 4; our unfaithfulness; vs. 3). He is states, (speaking as a man) even through our unrighteousness; our lie; our unfaithfulnes the righteousness of God (the oracles; the Holy Writ; that to which we can be justified (upright) in our words, and we overcome in our being judged. vs.4 ) still got commended; exhibited.

So is GOD unrighteous exhibiting wrath against those who choose to live thusly?



In verse six he answers emphatically in collation with what he previously said in verse four, "That You should be justified (upright) in Your words, and will overcome in Your being judged". He answers, "Let it not be; Otherwise, how will God judge the world?"



Then in verse seven he connects what he is about to say with the Greek word "gar" to what was previously stated. This word is a primary particle; to which assigns reason (Strong's #1063) to things previously stated. More often translated "for".



So he is continuing his argument from man's perspective (vs.5 ). Reiterating what he said corporately in verse 5, but this time he is speaking in the first person. He says, "For if in my lie (my unrighteousness; my unfaithfulness through not adhering to all that which is given in the Holy Writ) the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I yet judged as a sinner?"



And not (as we are wrongly accused, and as some report us to say), Let us do bad things so that good things may come, ( in other words why not just continue on the same course of unrighteous, unfaithfulness because the oracles; the Holy Writ; GOD's righteousness is still getting commended; promoted). And then emphatically to the man argument because GOD will judge the world (vs. 6). He condemns such thinking by saying, "The judgment of whom is just."



This is not the only place I have tried to share this. So with that being said. In trying to see someone else's argument I looked in a few reference books. Interestingly enough I could not find anything to support their argument. But to my glee I did find citations to support what was given to me. Here they are.



Henry Alford’s The Greek New Testament

Romans 3:7

7.] This follows (connected by γάρ) upon Rom_3:6, and shews that the supposition if carried out, would overthrow all God’s judgment, and (Rom_3:8) the whole moral life of man. How shall God judge the world? FOR, if the truth (faithfulness) of God abounded (was manifested, more clearly established) by means of my falsehood (unfaithfulness), to His glory (so that the result has been the setting forth of His glory), why any longer (ἔτι, this being so,—assuming the premises) am I also (i.e. as well as others,—am I to be involved in a judgment from which I ought to be exempt) judged (to be judged,—the pres. expressing the rule or habit of God’s proceeding) as a sinner?



Clarkes Commentary

Romans 3:7



Jew. For if the truth of God, etc. - But to resume my reasoning (Rom_3:5): If the faithfulness of God in keeping his promise made to our fathers is, through our unfaithfulness, made far more glorious than it otherwise would have been, why should we then be blamed for that which must redound so much to the honor of God?



From Expositor's Greek New Testament



....A Jew is the speaker, or at all events the Apostle speaks in the character of one: “if my unbelief does magnify His faithfulness, is not that all that is required? Why am I, too, like the rest of the world, whose relation to God is so different, and whose judgment is so necessary, still brought into judgment?”...



From Vincent Word Studies

Lie (ψεύσματι)



Only here in the New Testament. The expression carries us back to Rom_3:4, and is general for moral falsehood, unfaithfulness to the claims of conscience and of God, especially with reference to the proffer of salvation through Christ.





From the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges

Romans 3:7



For if, &c.] Here St Paul takes up the Opponent on his own ground; speaking as a human being whose sin (e.g. a falsehood) serves to make God’s truth “abound to His glory;” i.e. be more largely manifest in a way to win Him fresh praise:—in such a case is not Paul, is not A, B, or C, equally entitled with the Jewish opponent to be excused penalty?—In the Gr. of the clause “why am I yet, &c.,” the word “I” is strongly emphatic; I also; i.e. “I, as well as my opponent.”—“Why am I yet, &c.:”—i.e. “after the recognition of the effect of my sin on the advancement of God’s glory.”—“By my lie;” lit. in my lie; i.e. “on occasion of it, in connexion with it.”



John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes

Romans 3:7

But, may the objector reply, if the truth of God hath abounded - Has been more abundantly shown. Through my lie - If my lie, that is, practice contrary to truth, conduces to the glory of God, by making his truth shine with superior advantage. Why am I still judged as a sinner - Can this be said to be any sin at all? Ought I not to do what would otherwise be evil, that so much "good may come?" To this the apostle does not deign to give a direct answer, but cuts the objector short with a severe reproof.



May GOD bless and keep you and keep us in HIS Way; Jesus Christ!! Happy Thanksgiving!!!
Romans3:7(KJV)
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory;why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

Well that's a more proper interpretation at least,as for what the point the OP is trying to establish,who knows,if all the person is trying to do is prove paul to be a liar,it's a rather pointless waste of time.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#8
I cannot make heads or tails of this.
Makes sense,after all the OP didn't bother to establish any "point" to their post,just a bunch of scripture and pretty much a guessing game,people do that from time to time.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
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#9
Paul used the same logic somewhat concerning sin and grace....since grace out bounds our sin should we continually live in sin....God forbid....he is saying the same thing in a round about way with the above.....
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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#10
I take it that your not a big fan of Paul. God bless you as well and Happy Thanksgiving to you too.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#11
Paul used the same logic somewhat concerning sin and grace....since grace out bounds our sin should we continually live in sin....God forbid....he is saying the same thing in a round about way with the above.....
Yep, Paul has a quite a difficult to understand style of arguing and writing, one must be familiar with it when reading some of his isolated texts. It can mislead, as also Peter warned.

Thats why it is useful to read NIV or some "not so literal" translation, to get it more explained.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,586
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#12
Yep, Paul has a quite a difficult to understand style of arguing and writing, one must be familiar with it when reading some of his isolated texts. It can mislead, as also Peter warned.
i believe it's called rhetoric. :)

isn't this whole passage contrasting man's unfaithfulness and God's Faithfulness?
man's unrighteousness and God's Righteousness?

:confused:
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
8,083
190
63
#13
Let us look at verse 7 in context... questions are evident.. all answered as we follow line upon line..

[h=1]Romans 3King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]17 And the way of peace have they not known:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.[/FONT]
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#14
I take it that your not a big fan of Paul. God bless you as well and Happy Thanksgiving to you too.
You would be wrong.
At least read the post in it's entirety. If you are having problems reading my commentary then any questions about what is being stated is cleared up in the citations which are supplied.

Happy Thanksgiving to you also!
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#15
Paul's "lie", if indeed one would wish to call it as such, is the same "lie" that is in you, and the same "lie" that is in ALL believer's. "Flesh and blood cannot enter the Kingdom of God!" If you'll notice, Paul was speaking "in the flesh man" part of himself, addressing spiritual/Godly matters, like one, who, as a "flesh unit", is "ate up" with the "sinful nature!"(the LIE).
Fact is? Paul would every "man" (get it?...flesh units), call him a liar! So, the unrighteousness of the sinful nature in all of our flesh (the lie), might SEE the righteousness of God! And, in so seeing, and believing? STRIVE TOWARDS, or SEEK OUT, the righteousness of God! In the spiritual! As the flesh, or unrighteousness (the LIE), is ALWAYS at war with our spiritual selves! Or? If it isn't? Should be an indicator that You, aren't doing something right!

 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
504
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HBG. Pa. USA
#16
Paul used the same logic somewhat concerning sin and grace....since grace out bounds our sin should we continually live in sin....God forbid....he is saying the same thing in a round about way with the above.....
Right. So you see where Paul in verse 5 includes himself in his comment by using the pronoun "our"?

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
(Rom 3:5 KJV)
What is also interesting about that verse is itt is actually a continuation of the thoughts established in verse 4. One thought in particular. And that thought is, "every man a liar". The clause, "But if our unrighteousness" is connecting to this thought, "every man being a liar.
Which by the way is a blanket statement which would include Paul himself. Further emphasizing the point of the thread.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
2,375
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HBG. Pa. USA
#17
Makes sense,after all the OP didn't bother to establish any "point" to their post,just a bunch of scripture and pretty much a guessing game,people do that from time to time.
Many points have been established, It is not an easy read. If you are having issues understanding the points of the commentary while looking at the text; then please take the time to read the citations provided at the end.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
4,586
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#18
Right. So you see where Paul in verse 5 includes himself in his comment by using the pronoun "our"?

But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
(Rom 3:5 KJV)
What is also interesting about that verse is itt is actually a continuation of the thoughts established in verse 4. One thought in particular. And that thought is, "every man a liar". The clause, "But if our unrighteousness" is connecting to this thought, "every man being a liar.
Which by the way is a blanket statement which would include Paul himself. Further emphasizing the point of the thread.
so what is your point? to establish Paul personally as a liar? to what purpose?

what's the end game here?
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#19
Many points have been established, It is not an easy read. If you are having issues understanding the points of the commentary while looking at the text; then please take the time to read the citations provided at the end.
In your head but not to us,instead of parroting the same thing,how about telling what point you are trying to establish,if any.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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#20
Paul's "lie", if indeed one would wish to call it as such, is the same "lie" that is in you, and the same "lie" that is in ALL believer's....
Indeed. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of GOD. Being that poor example while sharing what GOD would have in us through HIS Word.

Praise be to Jesus Paul also shared that we do not have to fall short of the Glory of GOD.

By whom also we having had access by faith into this grace wherein we stood, and rejoice in the expectation of the glory of God. (Rom 5:2)