Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

[abcdef]

Brother garee,

Its last day (singular).We are in the last time.(many days) there is no second from last. One fleshly outward demonstration is all that was promised.

The old creation vanishes as the new comes in.The one time fleshly demonstration was over when the veil was rent it rendered the bricks and other ceremonial things useless.

Totally agree.

And the ones that say he do not come the first time (he only came with form once for the one time demonstration. Those antichrists still have portion of a wailing wall that they can worship as a idol image .

It's really kind of symbolic, that they are talking to a stone wall.

He will come like a thief in the night.

He came like a thief at the dest of Jerusalem, He will come like a thief at the rapt/resur of salvation, but at the rapt/resur, it will be for some, more like a bridegroom coming in the night.

The time or refomation had come.

Why look for a fleshly God rather than walk by faith (the unseen)?

God is not a man as us . He remains without mother or father beginning of Spriit life or end of it.

1Jo 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Nothing about coming twice in the flesh.

2Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known "Christ after the flesh", yet now henceforth know we him no more.

I agree, when He comes the 2nd time He will be in His glory, and we will see His face.

 

[Iconoclast]

Is Son of man coming in the cloud at 1 st century?

Yes...it was not a visible physical coming...it was a coming in judgment showing a change in life as they knew it, a change of governmental structure as the theocracy came to an end.

believers are not appointed to see wrath..ie, second death...

 

[Locutus]

Isa 65:17-25, I agree, and the passage is talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit kingdom, the one that started on Pentecost,

So It would seem that the new heavens and earth started on Pentecost, when the new covenant kingdom came.


Yes, And people like you and I who study it all the time.

Just because people discuss the old covenant this is not the way remember is meant in the context, to remember is to also imply it is still valid and "actionable" as in its commands and stipulations such as sabbath keeping etc.

But you say that it does. You say "salvation", is escaping from the dest of Jeru.

This is the second or third time you tried to misrepresent what I said in regards to:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

It is the timing that is relevant here and that is "Jerusalem compassed with armies":

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Jerusalem has been surrounded quite a few times since 66 AD.

The redemption that Jesus said was to happen at that time applied to all his followers not just those that were to flee Jerusalem.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Paul stated that their salvation was nearer and the day was at hand, so your argument is with what Jesus and Paul stated.

Do you think the Romans headed down to Jerusalem just prior to the compassing with armies and then fled as the armies approached?

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

You and all the other futurist "theologies" have him tarrying for nearly 2000 years to fit in with your fiction.

Likely story...

This is true, but they were cast out of the kingdom. When Paul wrote, they were already cast out/cut off, nobody had to wait for Jerusalem to be destroyed.



1900 yrs later, those who were cast out,....can still return and be part of the kingdom. Yes? (That is a question.)

Yes, if you can find their bones...

Any more silly questions?

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

I love the substance of your posts. Meat for dinner tonight!

Thanks. Friday night is steak night at my house.

The 2 witnesses (Israel, broken branches) are in the wild for the 3 1/2 t's. You say that this is the time of the siege.

But at the end of the "time of the siege," the 2 wt's are restored to Jerusalem and witness there.

There they are killed, called to heaven in the presence of their enemies, they see them stand up, and rise to heaven. (Old Jo would have surely mentioned that)

So how can the 2wt's be restored after the siege is over? If it was 70 ad, they would be returning at that time, directly after the siege.

The identity of the two witnesses is uncertain. The symbolism implies "church" or perhaps "believing Israel" which really would be one in the same. I am now more inclined to consider them as two literal people when I used to think they were the churches and/or believing Israel because the death and resurrection aspect of the entire church does not fit in this time frame.

However, the two witnesses could literally be two people. If they were two people they did not flee with the church but remained in the city during the siege preaching. Their enemies would have been the apostate Jews inside the city who the witnesses were tormenting with their words. There is one very strong candidate who Jo records named interestingly enough, Jesus, son of Ananus. This dude was going around the city, dressed poorly (sack cloth perhaps) and scaring the crap out of people with his dire predictions for their destruction. The below was his chant and he uses many of the same words we find in the Bible. My view is this guy was divinely sent with a clear message.

"A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!"

Now he was killed by a Roman dart and the people were happy about it. However, this happened right before Rome broke through and destroyed the city so we do not have a record of his resurrection with people seeing it. But the only record we have is from Jo Jo who was not personally in the city as he was with Titus.

The woman in ch 12 is Israel the natural branches (OT), waiting for Jesus.

She gives birth to Jesus while the dragon (Rome, Herod) tries to kill Jesus.

Israel is the woman (OT), part of the bride. She is called the bride in the OT.

Pretty much agree brother.

When you say "church", it's meanings are so varied, that it is hard to define sometimes.

When I say "Church" I am usually meaning all those saved.

to be continued...

 

[PlainWord]

...Continuing.

You say that this is the time of siege, but what happens after the time is up?

If she is in the wild for that time, what happens then?

I mean, she can't stay, in the wild anymore, because that is the time that God has declared for her to be there, she cannot remain there After the 3 1/2 t's, because God said she can't, she must return home to Jerusalem.

My view is the Woman which fled to the wilderness was the Jewish church who we know heard a divine voice to leave just before the siege. I believe this church was the 144K. I believe Christ's presence was with them. After the siege was over and Rome left the people of the Church were free to return to Jerusalem or from whence they came. Keep in mind that Jerusalem was surrounded the day before Passover so Christian Jews from every tribe and nation would have returned to Jerusalem to observe Passover as it was one of three major Jewish holidays that Jewish Christians still observed.

The dragon iron beast is Rome.

She is in the gentile wilderness, then she MUST return home at the end of the t's.

And Titus did return to Rome after the War with the remnant of Jews captured, less than 96,000 because he killed some of them on the way home.

To be continued...

 

[garee]

I would offer. The identity of the two witnesses is the word of God.............. the law and the prophets (sola scriptura).It is the key that binds and loosens men from darkness

The woman in Revelation 12 is the whole bride of Christ (the one church) and is up of Jews and gentiles indiscriminately..

1444,000 represents an unknown .He does not give number in that way of naming his people. When David tried a curse came and killed many..We walk by faith the unseen.

God is no respecter of person. The time of reformation has come . The outward Jew and not those born again as inward of the Spirit of Christ have shown themselves as antichrists. They have received all their promises.

The gospel is never about the temporal use of the flesh of any nation. Our Father in heaven signified the word Abraham is the Father of many . Not one.

 

[PlainWord]

I would offer. The identity of the two witnesses is the word of God.............. the law and the prophets (sola scriptura).It is the key that binds and loosens men from darkness

The woman in Revelation 12 is the whole bride of Christ (the one church) and is up of Jews and gentiles indiscriminately..

1444,000 represents an unknown .He does not give number in that way of naming his people. When David tried a curse came and killed many..We walk by faith the unseen.

God is no respecter of person. The time of reformation has come . The outward Jew and not those born again as inward of the Spirit of Christ have shown themselves as antichrists. They have received all their promises.

The gospel is never about the temporal use of the flesh of any nation. Our Father in heaven signified the word Abraham is the Father of many . Not one.

So, the Word of God was killed by Satan, laid in the streets and rose again in 3 days citing fear? That's seems like a stretch.

 

[iamsoandso]

Just because people discuss the old covenant this is not the way remember is meant in the context, to remember is to also imply it is still valid and "actionable" as in its commands and stipulations such as sabbath keeping etc.



This is the second or third time you tried to misrepresent what I said in regards to:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

It is the timing that is relevant here and that is "Jerusalem compassed with armies":

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Jerusalem has been surrounded quite a few times since 66 AD.

The redemption that Jesus said was to happen at that time applied to all his followers not just those that were to flee Jerusalem.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Paul stated that their salvation was nearer and the day was at hand, so your argument is with what Jesus and Paul stated.

Do you think the Romans headed down to Jerusalem just prior to the compassing with armies and then fled as the armies approached?

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

You and all the other futurist "theologies" have him tarrying for nearly 2000 years to fit in with your fiction.

Likely story...

Yes, if you can find their bones...

Any more silly questions?

That's curious that you see it in light to the book of Romans at all(as for the timing) that is that the letter to the Romans was written ad55-57 and then would not be in reference to events 10 years in the future...

 

[Locutus]

That's curious that you see it in light to the book of Romans at all(as for the timing) that is that the letter to the Romans was written ad55-57 and then would not be in reference to events 10 years in the future...

It wouldn't be the next saturday after he wrote would it?...

And he would hardly be claiming "salvation is nearer" if it was still nearly 2000 years away.

If the day of salvation in the 1st century is not the "day" Paul is speaking of what day did he have in mind?

 

[iamsoandso]

It wouldn't be the next saturday after he wrote would it?...

And he would hardly be claiming "salvation is nearer" if it was still nearly 2000 years away.

If the day of salvation in the 1st century is not the "day" Paul is speaking of what day did he have in mind?

lol,I think your all wound up for ABC...

Still though, if the city wasn't surrounded at the time Romans was written ect. then how's it some type connection with "when you see the city surrounded",,,? seems to be a stretch if you see it from another's point of view right?

 

[Locutus]

lol,I think your all wound up for ABC...

Still though, if the city wasn't surrounded at the time Romans was written ect. then how's it some type connection with "when you see the city surrounded",,,? seems to be a stretch if you see it from another's point of view right?

Because both Jesus and Paul are talking about the "day/time" of salvation, Jesus "this generation shall not pass" and Paul said the day of our salvation is "nearer" indicating it was expected in the Romans lifetimes.

The NT is full of imminence statements soandso.

 

[abcdef]

A-F,



Thanks. Friday night is steak night at my house.



The identity of the two witnesses is uncertain. The symbolism implies "church" or perhaps "believing Israel" which really would be one in the same. I am now more inclined to consider them as two literal people when I used to think they were the churches and/or believing Israel because the death and resurrection aspect of the entire church does not fit in this time frame.

When the Rev was written, there was only the Law and prophets. The letters were not assembled for many years.

Zech 4:6, shows that the 2 olive trees are part of a vision which is literally the word of God. Since the 2 olive trees are spirits, the word of God, to be in this material world they must have substance, spirits in the flesh, the flesh would be Israel. The OT is witness to Jesus.

This is Israel after the flesh, the broken off natural branches. They hold the OT and it is part of them. "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Rom 11:29. (This is their last chance to obey the gospel.) It may be that many do accept Jesus, but we may not perceive it.

However, the two witnesses could literally be two people. If they were two people they did not flee with the church but remained in the city during the siege preaching. Their enemies would have been the apostate Jews inside the city who the witnesses were tormenting with their words. There is one very strong candidate who Jo records named interestingly enough, Jesus, son of Ananus. This dude was going around the city, dressed poorly (sack cloth perhaps) and scaring the crap out of people with his dire predictions for their destruction. The below was his chant and he uses many of the same words we find in the Bible. My view is this guy was divinely sent with a clear message.

"A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!"

Now he was killed by a Roman dart and the people were happy about it. However, this happened right before Rome broke through and destroyed the city so we do not have a record of his resurrection with people seeing it. But the only record we have is from Jo Jo who was not personally in the city as he was with Titus.

Old Jo's writings are OK BUT, they are not scripture and may have been enhanced to please the powers of the day.

"Their enemies beheld them", the Romans would have seen them resurrect, if it was 70 ad.

Pretty much agree brother.

This is key.

When I say "Church" I am usually meaning all those saved.

to be continued...

All those saved would be OT saints also, but they were not part of the kingdom that started on Pentecost and the indwelling (gift) of the Holy Spirit.

Another reason to call it "the kingdom".

 

[abcdef]

...Continuing.



My view is the Woman which fled to the wilderness was the Jewish church

You mean the natural branches that became part of the kingdom?

who we know heard a divine voice to leave just before the siege.

Jesus told them to leave in Matt 24, Lk 21:20-24, etc. They didn't need a voice.

I believe this church was the 144K.

The 144000, are the first fruits of the resurrection with Jesus, seen with Jesus when the Rev was given, not to be confused with the f fruits of the kingdom which were those on Pentecost and after.

I believe Christ's presence was with them.

The presence of Jesus is in all of us through the gift Holy Spirit.

After the siege was over and Rome left the people of the Church were free to return to Jerusalem or from whence they came.

You just told me that the city was reduced to total wasteland, and that a Roman guard was posted there. Also that the city wasn't rebuilt until 130 ad, how is it that you say that the Christians were "free" to return there? Anyway, it's clear that nobody returned there for years, Christian or Jewish.
And Christians weren't "popular" then either.

Keep in mind that Jerusalem was surrounded the day before Passover so Christian Jews from every tribe and nation would have returned to Jerusalem to observe Passover as it was one of three major Jewish holidays that Jewish Christians still observed.

And Titus did return to Rome after the War with the remnant of Jews captured, less than 96,000 because he killed some of them on the way home.

To be continued...

It's not Titus (the dragon) that returns home, it's the woman, to Jerusalem.

Brother PW,

You have almost got this.

The woman is Israel the natural branches.

The woman flees her home, Jerusalem and Israel.

She is chased by the waters (people) of the dragon (Rome).

She is chased into the wilderness of the gentiles.

---

Which of these is the correct question?

1. How long is the woman in the wilderness of the gentiles?

2, How long does the siege of Jerusalem last, that the woman fled from?

---

The woman is in the wilderness, of the gentile nations, for 3 1/2t's.

70 ad until the end of the times of the gentiles.

When the 3 1/2t's is over, she leaves the wilderness of the gentile nations and returns home to Jerusalem.

---

But the 3 1/2 t's is not the time of siege, the woman flees into the wild, for the 3 1/2t's.

 

[abcdef]

Just because people discuss the old covenant this is not the way remember is meant in the context, to remember is to also imply it is still valid and "actionable" as in its commands and stipulations such as sabbath keeping etc.

Isa 65:17-25, (your scripture), confirms the heaven and earth passing at the covenant kingdom and not the dest of Jeru.

This is the second or third time you tried to misrepresent what I said in regards to:

Luke 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

It is the timing that is relevant here and that is "Jerusalem compassed with armies":

Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Jerusalem has been surrounded quite a few times since 66 AD.

The redemption that Jesus said was to happen at that time applied to all his followers not just those that were to flee Jerusalem.

I didn't misrepresent you, you are clearly stating here that redemption, "was to happen at that time", 70 ad.

Rom 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Rom 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

Paul stated that their salvation was nearer and the day was at hand, so your argument is with what Jesus and Paul stated.

Again, you are clearly saying that the salvation spoken of was in 70 ad.

Do you think the Romans headed down to Jerusalem just prior to the compassing with armies and then fled as the armies approached?

????????????

Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Again implying that salvation was at the dest of Jeru in 70 ad

Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

You and all the other futurist "theologies" have him tarrying for nearly 2000 years to fit in with your fiction.

Jesus did come in 70 ad, but it was not a resurrection coming.

That is where you are mixed up.

Likely story...

Yes, if you can find their bones...

Any more silly questions?

..................................

 

[abcdef]

I would offer. The identity of the two witnesses is the word of God.............. the law and the prophets (sola scriptura).It is the key that binds and loosens men from darkness

The Word is in us, we are witnesses, but the OT was the witness when the Rev was written.

The woman in Revelation 12 is the whole bride of Christ (the one church) and is up of Jews and gentiles indiscriminately..

The bride is Israel, the wild branches are grafted in.

1444,000 represents an unknown .He does not give number in that way of naming his people. When David tried a curse came and killed many..We walk by faith the unseen

.

I didn't think of it like that, thanks for sharing.

God is no respecter of person. The time of reformation has come . The outward Jew and not those born again as inward of the Spirit of Christ have shown themselves as antichrists. They have received all their promises.

The promises to the fathers cannot be rejected.

The gospel is never about the temporal use of the flesh of any nation. Our Father in heaven signified the word Abraham is the Father of many . Not one.

I'm not so sure about that, what if Israel had accepted the kingdom, would the gentiles still have been brought in?

I think that God uses nations to do His will. Rome for example.

 

[Locutus]

Isa 65:17-25, (your scripture), confirms the heaven and earth passing at the covenant kingdom and not the dest of Jeru.

2 Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

If Peter was still looking for the new "heavens and earth" then it can't have been prior to the dest of Jeru Mr. Magu.

I didn't misrepresent you, you are clearly stating here that redemption, "was to happen at that time", 70 ad.

Again, you are clearly saying that the salvation spoken of was in 70 ad.

Yes I am saying that.

Jesus did come in 70 ad, but it was not a resurrection coming.

That is where you are mixed up.

Not mixed up at all, Paul himself stated that the resurrection was about to be, not 2000 years after he wrote this:

Acts 24:5 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

There is yer resurrection right there and according to the Greek it was impending:

Impending can not be stretched past the time Paul lived in.

 

[abcdef]

2 Pet 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

If Peter was still looking for the new "heavens and earth" then it can't have been prior to the dest of Jeru Mr. Magu.



Yes I am saying that.



Not mixed up at all, Paul himself stated that the resurrection was about to be, not 2000 years after he wrote this:

Acts 24:5 (Young's Literal) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

There is yer resurrection right there and according to the Greek it was impending:

Impending can not be stretched past the time Paul lived in.

1. Tell me the exact time of the resurrection/salvation that you "claim" happened at the dest. 67 ad? 68 ad? exactly when?

2. Show me a scripture that says that you and I have eternal salvation.

 

[Locutus]

I see that rather than taking Paul at his words you attempt to invalidate his statements by asking me more silly questions.

 

[abcdef]

I see that rather than taking Paul at his words you attempt to invalidate his statements by asking me more silly questions.

Your game is over. Please insert another quarter to continue.

 

[PlainWord]

Yes...it was not a visible physical coming...it was a coming in judgment showing a change in life as they knew it, a change of governmental structure as the theocracy came to an end.

believers are not appointed to see wrath..ie, second death...

Wow, welcome to the discussion. Another wise scholar has joined our ranks.

Yes, even those who pierced Him, which would have been 1st century Roman solders. Nobody in the 21st century pierced Him.