Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

[PlainWord]

lol,I think your all wound up for ABC...

Still though, if the city wasn't surrounded at the time Romans was written ect. then how's it some type connection with "when you see the city surrounded",,,? seems to be a stretch if you see it from another's point of view right?

Paul, writing to Titus, says this:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Titus is to look for the blessed hope of the glorious appearance (parousia) of God and Jesus. Men of the 1st century were to live soberly because this appearance (parousia) was to happen in their age. Their age (Mosaic) was about to end and Christ would return to end it and usher in our age (Messianic). This message about being sober, watching and waiting for Christ's appearance (parousia) is found here too:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

Paul gave these instructions to the first century church at Thessalonica. "But YOU brethren" He did not give those instructions to people living in the 21st century. Paul did not say, "hey, you guys in the 21st century, live sober and watch because Christ is coming back in your generation."

Who were the "them" that sudden destruction was going to come upon? It was the first century apostate wicked Jews living in Jerusalem and having returned to Jerusalem from other places. All the rotten eggs returned to the basket (Jerusalem) to be destroyed in the Great Tribulation.

How could "this day (the Day of the Lord) overtake them if that day wouldn't be for another 2,000 years? When you have the complete and total annihilation of their 2,000 year-old nation because of utter sin and wickedness (that faithless and perverse generation), within the next 10-20 years don't you think those in the know (Paul, John, Peter, Matthew, Luke and even earlier with Jesus and John the Baptist) would be talking about it and warning their contemporaries? The OT prophets sure gave warning of pending destruction and punishment, why wouldn't the NT prophets do the same?

If these NT prophets were not addressing the end of their nation in all these so-called "end times" passages that many think apply to us, then where do they discuss it? In the Olivet after Jesus told them about their temple to soon be destroyed, they asked, "tell us, when will these things be? And what would be the signs of Your Presence and the termination of this age," the age they were living in. Can anyone deny their Law or Mosaic Age ended in 70 AD?

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

Jesus told them to leave in Matt 24, Lk 21:20-24, etc. They didn't need a voice.

Except all of them were dead by then but God gave the Christians in Jerusalem a voice anyway.

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." - Josephus "War" 6-5-3.

The 144000, are the first fruits of the resurrection with Jesus, seen with Jesus when the Rev was given, not to be confused with the f fruits of the kingdom which were those on Pentecost and after.

Are you suggesting that 144,000 dead OT virgin Jews arose with Christ (in 27-33 AD time frame) and stood with Him on Mount Zion? Why wasn't this event recorded in any of the Gospels? It seems clear from the context of Rev 14, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come" that they were with Christ when His Presence returned around 70 AD. There was no judgment by Christ in 27-33 AD time frame.

You just told me that the city was reduced to total wasteland, and that a Roman guard was posted there. Also that the city wasn't rebuilt until 130 ad, how is it that you say that the Christians were "free" to return there? Anyway, it's clear that nobody returned there for years, Christian or Jewish.
And Christians weren't "popular" then either.

Many Jews returned to the area and lived outside where Jerusalem was, once the main Roman force left.

It's not Titus (the dragon) that returns home, it's the woman, to Jerusalem.

What passage(s) are you relying on? Where do I say that Titus returned to Jerusalem after he conquered it?

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

Isa 65:17-25, (your scripture), confirms the heaven and earth passing at the covenant kingdom and not the dest of Jeru.

Read Isa 65 in the light of it being 70 AD. What is happening in that chapter? We have two groups, "My Servants" and "Those who forsake the Lord." These are the believing and non-believing Jews. The first group gets fed, given drink, they rejoice and sing (more on this). The second group is numbered for the sword and slaughtered. They are hungry, thirsty, ashamed and sorrowful. These are the exact conditions the second group was living inside of 70 AD Jerusalem. They were surrounded, cut off and starving to death. They were being killed by sword first from their own people, the tyrants then by the Romans.

The first group, which fled to Pella, were spared with not one Christian casualty during their exodus.

“For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind.

These Jewish believers along with their grafted in Gentile believers were to forget the Law and old order of apostate Jerusalem. Look again at how they are described in Isa 65. The EAT, DRINK, REJOICE and have JOY. Turning to Rev 7 we have the same description given. Those who came OUT OF great tribulation, unlike their doomed unbelieving countrymen, "They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; [SUP]17 [/SUP]for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Back to Isa 65, a new Jerusalem where righteousness dwells:

For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. [SUP]19 [/SUP]I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying.

Conditions inside the city in 70 AD were horrific (AKA great tribulation). The city was full of dead bodies who died by starvation, by disease, by murder, etc. Infants were eaten by their mothers. Old men were killed by robbers. There was no peace, no security. The city was full of fear and the people were actually begging the Romans to come in and end their misery which the suffered at the hands of the tyrants (Simon and John). So once this was all over, Isaiah says this:

“No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. [SUP]21 [/SUP]They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. [SUP]22 [/SUP]They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. [SUP]23 [/SUP]They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the Lord, And their offspring with them.

There was going to be a long period of peace, put in this symbolic way:

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox.

 

[shrume]

There was going to be a long period of peace

There is going to be a long period of peace, 1000 years to be exact. The millennial kingdom is not here yet.

put in this symbolic way:

The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox.

I believe that is literal. In the millennial kingdom, animal nature will be restored to as it was before the Fall, when all the animals ate plants (Gen 1:29-30).

No way will I accept Preterism.

 

[Locutus]

Your game is over. Please insert another quarter to continue.

I don't need a quarter to defeat your para-dime...

I can do it with common cents.....

Your whole theory is based on ignoring scriptures that contradict your stance.

For instance, you claim the old testament was done away at the cross, which I claim and scripture states you are wrong:

Heb 8:4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law.

The writer of Hebrews is plainly stating that at the time of his writing that offerings were being made according to the Law that supposedly according to you was done away at the cross.

 

[iamsoandso]

Paul, writing to Titus, says this:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Titus is to look for the blessed hope of the glorious appearance (parousia) of God and Jesus. Men of the 1st century were to live soberly because this appearance (parousia) was to happen in their age. Their age (Mosaic) was about to end and Christ would return to end it and usher in our age (Messianic). This message about being sober, watching and waiting for Christ's appearance (parousia) is found here too:

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. [SUP]5 [/SUP]You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober.

Paul gave these instructions to the first century church at Thessalonica. "But YOU brethren" He did not give those instructions to people living in the 21st century. Paul did not say, "hey, you guys in the 21st century, live sober and watch because Christ is coming back in your generation."

Who were the "them" that sudden destruction was going to come upon? It was the first century apostate wicked Jews living in Jerusalem and having returned to Jerusalem from other places. All the rotten eggs returned to the basket (Jerusalem) to be destroyed in the Great Tribulation.

How could "this day (the Day of the Lord) overtake them if that day wouldn't be for another 2,000 years? When you have the complete and total annihilation of their 2,000 year-old nation because of utter sin and wickedness (that faithless and perverse generation), within the next 10-20 years don't you think those in the know (Paul, John, Peter, Matthew, Luke and even earlier with Jesus and John the Baptist) would be talking about it and warning their contemporaries? The OT prophets sure gave warning of pending destruction and punishment, why wouldn't the NT prophets do the same?

If these NT prophets were not addressing the end of their nation in all these so-called "end times" passages that many think apply to us, then where do they discuss it? In the Olivet after Jesus told them about their temple to soon be destroyed, they asked, "tell us, when will these things be? And what would be the signs of Your Presence and the termination of this age," the age they were living in. Can anyone deny their Law or Mosaic Age ended in 70 AD?

lol, think about it for a second...

The thread is titled Salvation includes deliverance "from the wrath to come") ...

So look at the verses you gave 11,12,13,14 "salvation has appeared to all men" is this (at that time) something future or had it already came?

"In the present age",,,before ad70 or after which age did Paul say it was going on in?


"looking for",,,notice some of what you speak of are not spoke of as though they are in the "age to come" but are already in that "present age"?

then there is the "wrath to come",,,

 

[Bladerunner]

this is again where its important to rightly divide the word of truth or u will be mixed up in all kinds of false doctrines.

replacement theology is the problem here.

why would the church thats already purified have to go thru the purification of the time of Jacob's trouble? what about the judgment seat of Christ? when is that at? post-tribbers often just skip thru that event. its the u turn rapture.

Snoozy,.....I think you two are in the same pew? lol

Have a Blessed evening my Brother.
Blade

 

[Locutus]

lol, think about it for a second...

The thread is titled Salvation includes deliverance "from the wrath to come") ...

So look at the verses you gave 11,12,13,14 "salvation has appeared to all men" is this (at that time) something future or had it already came?

"In the present age",,,before ad70 or after which age did Paul say it was going on in?


"looking for",,,notice some of what you speak of are not spoke of as though they are in the "age to come" but are already in that "present age"?

then there is the "wrath to come",,,

Both Jesus and Paul lived in their "present/that" age - even though Titus does not speak of the age to come they both stated that the age to come was impending:

Matt 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming (Greek - μελλοντι)

Eph 1:21 far above all principality, and authority, and might, and lordship, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in the coming (Greek - μελλοντι) one

So the wrath to come was at the end of their age not the impending age to come which we are currently living in.

 

[PlainWord]

lol, think about it for a second...

The thread is titled Salvation includes deliverance "from the wrath to come") ...

So look at the verses you gave 11,12,13,14 "salvation has appeared to all men" is this (at that time) something future or had it already came?

"In the present age",,,before ad70 or after which age did Paul say it was going on in?


"looking for",,,notice some of what you speak of are not spoke of as though they are in the "age to come" but are already in that "present age"?

then there is the "wrath to come",,,

Salvation was future (at that time) but came in 70 AD at the parousia of Christ. They were looking forward to the salvation from the wrath to come and their redemption. This salvation and redemption (for them) is also found in Lk 21. Follow the order of events:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea (Jewish Christians in Judea) flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart.

For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people (apostate Jews of 70 AD).

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall (apostate Jews of 70 AD) by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive (surviving apostate Jews of 70 AD) into all nations.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Here it comes, wait for it!!

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Compare to Mat 24:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

We have salvation and redemption in these two passages for the elect of that day. They were SAVED FROM THE WRATH WHICH CAME upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.

What does Paul say in 1 Thes 5:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ...

God did not appoint the 1st centuries believers to wrath, however, He did appoint the 1st century apostate Jews to wrath (see my expose on Isa 65). Paul is repeating the message he gave the Thessalonian believers at the beginning of his letter:

1 Thes 1:

To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

...and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Who turned from idols?

Who was serving the living and true God?

Who was to wait for His Son?

Who was delivered from the wrath to come (upon Jerusalem in 70 AD)?

There is no 2,000 year jump in time or audiences. This is one continuous message for one audience. Please maintain audience integrity.

 

[PlainWord]

There is going to be a long period of peace, 1000 years to be exact. The millennial kingdom is not here yet.


I believe that is literal. In the millennial kingdom, animal nature will be restored to as it was before the Fall, when all the animals ate plants (Gen 1:29-30).

No way will I accept Preterism.

Where does it say there will be 1,000 years of peace?

so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.

I see no deception for 1,000 years but nothing about war or peace.

Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison [SUP]8 [/SUP]and will go out to deceive the nations...

Again, this is about deception and has nothing to do with war or peace or carnivorous animals eating straw.

You need to do a deep dive on what was lost in the garden so you can understand what Christ restored. It has nothing to do with menus for animals. Ask yourself, why did Christ come as a man and die on the cross? Was it so all animals will again eat plants?

Read Acts 3 my brother:

[SUP]19 [/SUP]Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord.

It's not about animals, its about restoring man to God by blotting out our sins. Has this happened yet or are we still waiting for it?

The presence (or parousia) of Christ came in 70 AD.





Hebrews 9:26

He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

1 Corinthians 10:11
Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.

When did their age end?

 

[abcdef]

A-F,



Except all of them were dead by then but God gave the Christians in Jerusalem a voice anyway.

Brother PlainWord,

They did write Matt, Mk, Lk, and I'm sure the prophecies were well known by then.

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." - Josephus "War" 6-5-3.

Jo is NOT scripture. and cannot be relied on as scripture, and may be enhanced to please the powers of the time as was COMMON among the peoples of the time.

Are you suggesting that 144,000 dead OT virgin Jews arose with Christ (in 27-33 AD time frame) and stood with Him on Mount Zion?

Yes, they are the f fruits of the resurrection with Jesus, they are not part of the kingdom that started on Pentecost.

Why wasn't this event recorded in any of the Gospels?

Because the gospels were written before these events. John sees the events from heaven, the apostles didn't write the gospels from heaven. John sees the 144000 in heaven, how did they get there if they were not resurrected with Jesus?

The 2nd resurrection unto salvation has not happened yet, you and I will take part in that one.

It seems clear from the context of Rev 14, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come" that they were with Christ when His Presence returned around 70 AD. There was no judgment by Christ in 27-33 AD time frame.

Rev 14:1-20, 7, 8.

V 7, "...; for the hour of his judgment is come:..."

Impending judgment for Babylon, (Rome).

V 8, "...Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city,"

Prophecy about the fall of the Roman Empire.

You want to say that Babylon is Jerusalem, But this says Babylon has ALREADY FALLEN, at the time of declaration. That would place the writing of the Rev AFTER the fall of Jeru., if the city was Jeru.

Many Jews returned to the area and lived outside where Jerusalem was, once the main Roman force left.

I believe that it was illegal for Jews to be around the location of the city until 110 ad.

What passage(s) are you relying on? Where do I say that Titus returned to Jerusalem after he conquered it?

We were talking about the woman of Rev 12.

And I asked you to tell me how long the woman was in the wild of the gentile nations?

---

You try so hard to make the 3 1/2 t's fit into the fall of Jeru,..for what? I can tell you that in the end, the prophecies won't fit together properly, squeezing them together to make them all fit in to the 70 ad swamp.

---

================

If everything is done by 70 ad, then,

There is NO more salvation for anyone after 70 ad.

There is NO more redemption for anyone after 70 ad.

NO RESURRECTION,

NO JUDGMENT,

No place for any soul with Jesus after 70 ad.

No wedding, no kingdom, no eternal life, you will NEVER see His face,

There is only the flesh and you might as well, eat, drink, and be merry, serve the flesh, lust after money, lie cheat and steal.

All finished 70 ad. All promises fulfilled. No more salvation, that was the dest in 70 ad, no judgment, that was 70 ad.

No, every knee shall bow, and every tongue confess, that was 70 ad. (some how?)
--
Show me a scripture that says that you and I have the promises of eternal life with Jesus after we die.

 

[PlainWord]

A-F,

I know Jo didn't write the gospels and I'm sure he never read them either but as a learned man, he was very familiar with the torah and the writings of the prophets. He recognized that events he was witnessing were foretold by the prophets and that he understood that the end of his nation was unfolding before his eyes. There are no other historical writing concerning the destruction of Jerusalem that I am aware of and the fact that Jo's account closely mirrors the biblical account gives him big credibility, and you big problems.

 

[iamsoandso]

Both Jesus and Paul lived in their "present/that" age - even though Titus does not speak of the age to come they both stated that the age to come was impending:

Matt 12:32 And whoever may speak a word against the Son of Man it shall be forgiven to him, but whoever may speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age, nor in that which is coming (Greek - μελλοντι)

Eph 1:21 far above all principality, and authority, and might, and lordship, and every name named, not only in this age, but also in the coming (Greek - μελλοντι) one

So the wrath to come was at the end of their age not the impending age to come which we are currently living in.

lol, I would suppose Augustine’s exegesis of the six days was and still is as it seems the pivotal point of the matter as to which day it was when they said what they did in aspect to the next day and when it began,ect.ect...."while it's still called today" comes to mind.

 

[iamsoandso]

Salvation was future (at that time) but came in 70 AD at the parousia of Christ. They were looking forward to the salvation from the wrath to come and their redemption. This salvation and redemption (for them) is also found in Lk 21. Follow the order of events:

[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea (Jewish Christians in Judea) flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart.

For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people (apostate Jews of 70 AD).

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they will fall (apostate Jews of 70 AD) by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive (surviving apostate Jews of 70 AD) into all nations.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Here it comes, wait for it!!

[SUP]28 [/SUP]Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.”

Compare to Mat 24:

[SUP]22 [/SUP]And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

We have salvation and redemption in these two passages for the elect of that day. They were SAVED FROM THE WRATH WHICH CAME upon Jerusalem in 70 AD.

What does Paul say in 1 Thes 5:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ...

God did not appoint the 1st centuries believers to wrath, however, He did appoint the 1st century apostate Jews to wrath (see my expose on Isa 65). Paul is repeating the message he gave the Thessalonian believers at the beginning of his letter:

1 Thes 1:

To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:

...and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, [SUP]10 [/SUP]and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.

Who turned from idols?

Who was serving the living and true God?

Who was to wait for His Son?

Who was delivered from the wrath to come (upon Jerusalem in 70 AD)?

There is no 2,000 year jump in time or audiences. This is one continuous message for one audience. Please maintain audience integrity.

lol, your like a wind up toy you attack everyone as if they are "Mid Acts Dispensationist" and never slow down and actually read what they type...

 

[iamsoandso]

PW,go back to post #221 and read verse 11 real close...

Then go to your own post and notice that when "salvation" was considered by Paul in "that present age" is different in your opinion in your post # 229...

 

[Locutus]

lol, I would suppose Augustine’s exegesis of the six days was and still is as it seems the pivotal point of the matter as to which day it was when they said what they did in aspect to the next day and when it began,ect.ect...."while it's still called today" comes to mind.

I don't have a clue what Augustin thought soandso.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

See any resemblance to Israel 40 years wandering among the sand dunes and the 40 years from Christ's ministry?

 

[iamsoandso]

I don't have a clue what Augustin thought soandso.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Heb 3:16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

See any resemblance to Israel 40 years wandering among the sand dunes and the 40 years from Christ's ministry?

lol, I kind of thought you didn't,it's sort of a homework thing among the pre./mill./Chill. stuff from the beginning. I suppose it would boil down to if Papias was actually as unlearned or not as he thought. Well and then those who saw the pre/mill. issue as he described,,,

 

[iamsoandso]

here you go, preterism 101.21234 lol,,, Of the Six Ages of the World.

 

[abcdef]

A-F,

I know Jo didn't write the gospels

and I'm sure he never read them either

How can you be sure, he might have read some of the letters sent to the various people and congregations.

but as a learned man, he was very familiar with the torah and the writings of the prophets. He recognized that events he was witnessing were foretold by the prophets and that he understood that the end of his nation was unfolding before his eyes. There are no other historical writing concerning the destruction of Jerusalem that I am aware of and the fact that Jo's account closely mirrors the biblical account gives him big credibility,

I don't disagree with Jo, I just say that the wrath didn't end there.

and you big problems.

It doesn't give me any problems, seeing that I agree that much of the Bible and NT is describing the fall in 70 ad.

You keep thinking that I am pre-trib and I'm not.

I'm saying that the wrath didn't end in 70 ad with the dest of Jeru.

It lasted long after 70 ad. and continued for centuries at the hands of the Roman iron beast.

Everything was not ended in 70 ad.

 

[Locutus]

I'm saying that the wrath didn't end in 70 ad with the dest of Jeru.

It lasted long after 70 ad. and continued for centuries at the hands of the Roman iron beast.

Everything was not ended in 70 ad.

You have the "wrath" extending for nearly 2000 years AB - whereas Jesus said it would be short:

Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

The great tribulation is exactly the "wrath to come" that John the Baptist warned his hearers of.

Therefore you are in error.