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Thread: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

  1. #421
    OtherWay210
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    To PlainWord 2nd reply


    The Apostles mention the Temp And the End of the World .
    But Christ is in fact going to level all of Jerusalem. And beyond .
    The closing Chapters of Ezekiel : describe the Millennial sanctuary which is a larger complex taking up much more land. The temple they were looking at would pale in comparison .

    Christ says Jerusalem, because Satan will be there claiming to be God .He says as much in all of his prophecies concerning the end times.


    That is to say Satans Locusts armies ( Revelation 9 ) are they which surround Jerusalem at the 6th Trump seal and veil
    2 Thess 2 kjv .
    Because of that it will be polluted.
    The battle in which it will be cleansed of Satan ; and subsequently leveled to the ground is called The Battle of Armageddon . And it did Not happen in 70 AD .

    Christ describing the events of Satans tribulation, coupled with The Tribulation Christ Himself afterwards Shall bring, wouldn't be comparable to all history since the beginning of the creation nor ever will be.
    That includes such events like the parting of the Red Sea, the plagues of Egypt, and Noah's Flood .


    Battle of Armageddon ( When Christ returns, and Sees Satan in Jerusalem playing false-messiah ..

    Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. ( Note : watch for those signs He taught : because Satan comes upon the world as a thief ) .
    16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

    Meggdio means a gathering of Satan and his forces, to battle Christ.


    Peter knows about the end of the age Christ returns in, the last days because he taught it .Why wouldnt he ?



    2Pe 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
    2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
    3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
    11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
    12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
    13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    Final Words
    14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
    15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
    16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
    18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

    Ages of time identified in the Bible:


    First:
    the world that then was
    2 Peter 3:6

    Second:
    But the heavens and the earth, which are now
    2 Peter 3:7

    Third:
    new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
    2 Peter 3:13




    Act 2:17 is about the trails of the Elect being delivered up so the Holy Spirit can speak through them to the world.
    It's plainly written in Matthew 24.
    "This is that"
    This is an example Peter said, of that spoken by Joel the prophet which will happen in the latter days .
    Christ taught also in Revelation 9 which the entire book is concerning .

    Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;


    Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:


    Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
    29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.
    30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
    31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
    32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.



    Anyone reading the entire chapter,
    understands if they care about Gods words Joel is talking about the Locust army in Revelation .
    Satan is over that army The two names given mean perish or perdition .



    Given the current state of confusion and division and pure evil in this World the prophecy fits, Christ will put all things under Him.


    Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    Those prophets which Christ taught, teach He will return at the second advent .


    Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

    He made the ages of time. Peter notes Three.



    Hebrews 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    This will happen as Revelation 20 - end explain .


    Armageddon and Hamongog Ezekiel 39:17



    Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
    3 And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.
    5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
    The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
    10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
    The Rider on a White Horse
    11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
    18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
    19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
    20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
    21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.




    The whole planet will witness Satan stand in Jerusalem claiming to be God, that is the desolator and an abomination as Revelation explains . the symbolism is direct and not open for interpretation .





    These verses refer to Israel established as a nation in modern times. This is what Jeremiah is about, and its prophecy Christ taught

    Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
    42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
    43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
    44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


    Before the visitation, they'd have to be first established ( 1948 ) . Not dispersed.

    Visitation, is What we just read in Revelation. Because Satan is the desolation being refered to. If it was about the dispersion, Christ would have ended with that.. Rather He said, the signs would take place after the gather again to the land, to be established as a nation A nation that does not worship Christ. Bad figs .

    But what actually happened ?
    Titus at the behest of Vespasian caused a diaspora. Not an establishment of Israel or the jews as Christ end time teachings called for . So it is Not possible this is past history. Instead as its always clearly been to the believer, and faithful, prophecy of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and the events leading up to His return. Revelation 11:15.



    I would not attempt to use Daniel to further try and muddy the bible by saying its all past already .



    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    If you think everlasting righteousness is here, your're out of it .Put down the commentaries and works from probably atheist, and pray to God.

    Im not getting into the chapter of Daniel. But I will later. Maybe in a week or two.


    Last edited by OtherWay210; January 1st, 2018 at 05:22 PM.

  2. #422
    OtherWay210
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Just to be clear under roman Rule , they had no hope to even establish the prophecy at that time . Again Not possible..
    But fast forward to 1948, or the six day war, whatever you prefer, it has come to past. Now, we WATCH, for the signs Christ taught in the gospels, such as Mark 13, or Luke 21 etc .. The equivalent Seals in Revelation..

    I'm signing out for tonight .

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by shrume View Post
    I think there is. I think it’s a real stretch to say that Matt 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD.

    The elephant in the room is that there is no honest way to conclude that Jesus returned in 70 AD.


    It didn’t even come close. At all.


    Agreed, except it will be the first fulfillment.
    The "coming" was not a physical coming, but a coming in judgment...

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    AB,



    LOL. Already happened.

    “You are righteous, O Lord, The One who is and who was the Holy One. Because You have judged these things. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, And You have given them blood to drink. For it is their just due.”

    Who shed the blood of the prophets? Did apostate Jews kill the prophets (including most of the disciples) or will the prophets be killed by people in the future, the Catholic Church perhaps?

    "Blood to drink?" Did you know in 70 AD inside Jerusalem, that food and water shortage was so bad they turned to cannibalism? Instead of having clean water they had blood to drink.

    That is the 3rd vial.

    It says at the 2nd vial, that "every living soul in the sea died."

    How is that the dest of Jerusalem?




    Nope, in this case Zec 14 was still about Israel following the victory of the Maccabees. This was really the last time God was pleased with the Nation of Israel.
    What about the day of Pentecost, when the kingdom came, before Israel rejected the kingdom?

    Wasn't God happy with Israel when He added to their numbers daily?


    No, they passed away during Antiochus and returned when the Maccabees defeated them and cleansed the temple. Again, "heaven and earth" are often used in place of Israel. See Hag 2:6, 21. Haggai is not telling Zerubbabel about some event many thousands of years into his future.
    So how many times does heaven and earth pass away? I think that we are up to about 7 or 8 times?

    I agree, it's not future.

    Six times in the OT, the heavens and earth were shaken. This referred to the Nation of Israel, not the literal heaven and earth, although an earthquake was often present as well.
    Because you already told me you have no interest in any ancient writing except the Bible. If you don't know history, how can you know what has and has not been fulfilled?


    Brother PW, I have had some history study. But the Bible is the center. Why waste extensive study of Buddhism, Hinduism, etc., when there is no eternal life there?

    My library is filled with books for references, including the commentaries.



    Yes, and this could be significant. I see it as such. However, I can find no direct prophesy telling us about the 1948 or 67 events of Israel today. The only guide we have is how God handled things in the past to understand how He might handle things in the future. He's been pretty much "hands-off" for the past 1900+ years although I do think He sided with Israel in their 20th century wars as they overcame huge odds to win each war.



    Man, you sure love your Dan 2 statue.
    It tells the whole story.

    You know there is another way of looking at the division of Rome and the mixing of her iron with clay? When Rome first conquered Israel in 63 BC under Pompey, it was done with largely an all Roman force (iron). Yet in 70 AD, when Rome put down the Jewish rebellion and ended them as a nation, it was done with majority of foreign fighters (clay) from the east. The Jews had many early successes against Rome in the time leading up to 67 AD. Rome clearly wasn't as strong as she had been the previous 100 years.
    Sure, Rome only barely survived the next 400 years, ha ha.


    "And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed."


    The kingdom began just after the iron started, not at the end.


    I believe the above kings where Nero, Vespasian and Titus, the trinity of evil. You are still waiting for Christ to establish His kingdom which will fill the earth.
    No I'm not. The kingdom was established on Pentecost.

    The stone striking is Jesus coming to take possession of the finished kingdom, not to establish it.

    When it fills the earth, that is in the next world after we are dead, not this world.

    You ignore the fact that prior to Christ, only Israel was a Godly nation. Since 70 AD, many nations have been Godly and Christianity indeed has come to every nation on planet Earth.


    True, but when the earth is filled, there will be no more sin and death (chaff), and we will be in the eternal world after physical death.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    You started out so well. You should know that "seals" merely seal the book, they do not proceed it. Thus they "seal" the contents inside which contents give more description.


    Brother PW,

    Hmmmmmm, ok. Close enough.


    The prophesy ends at the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, 7th bowl. 7-7-7.
    Well, not exactly. The 7 seals and the 7 trumpets, are one complete story, the story of the scroll. It ends at the 7th trumpet. Then it starts talking about the Roman beast.

    What about the part after the 7th bowl/vial? Rev 19, where the beast is thrown into the LoF? How is that 70 ad? The Roman beast is destroyed in 70 ad? You still haven't answered that one.


    If you look at the end of each of these passages we see they remained unrepentant, and life goes on,
    That's just my point, life went on after 70 ad. The kingdom, salvation, and prophecy, all went on. Jesus didn't leave us without a clue as to what will happen to Israel.

    The broken natural branches suffer God's wrath (withdrawing off blessings) until they are restored to Jerusalem.


    it doesn't end or turn into some millennium without sin.
    The time of the kingdom is from the day of Pentecost until Jesus comes at the rapt/resurrection of salvation.

    Then the planet ends in fire.


    The trumps lead up to the final wrath being poured out upon Jerusalem,
    Yes, my brother, but which Jerusalem? 70 ad, or the present restored Jerusalem?


    the Mother of all Harlots.
    Jerusalem is not the mother of all harlots. Some harlots yes, but not all harlots.

    The tower of Babel is, Babylon.

    When God destroys this planet, He remembers all the sin since the cleansing of the flood of Noah's day.

    The tower is the first place where souls turned away from Jehovah worship and began to worship the creation after the flood. We can trace all false religion back to that point. Jerusalem came long after the tower began the creation worship.



    John actually writes Revelation prior to 70 AD. There is only one source which hints at a writing later than this and that source is second hand hearsay and is ambiguous as to its meaning. The entire book is discussing the very soon to come fall of Israel and return presence of God and His Son to execute judgment upon apostate Israel. They had their 490 years to accomplish the things set forth in Dan 9:24.


    The scroll of the 7 seals could not be opened until after Jerusalem had been destroyed.

    The breaking of the 6th/7th seals shows that event. The trumpets show what happens after the 70 ad fall.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by davida View Post
    What is a Penecost Holy Spirit kingdom? Can you quote your source?
    The kingdom began on the day of Pentecost, when souls received their gift of the Holy Spirit Acts 2:38. You probably call it the church. I like to call it the kingdom, the wild and natural branches.


    On this basis you negate the promises to Israel for a physical nation?
    Israel is restored to control of Jerusalem right now in fulfillment of prophecy. Those prophecies are being fulfilled before our eyes.


    Jesus will never sit on the throne of David?
    Jesus sits on the eternal throne of David right now ruling heaven and earth.

    He rules the kingdom now.


    One of the proofs of Biblical accuracy is fulfillment of prophecy.
    God is unchanging, if He said it is going to happen it will.
    I agree.

    There are many answers given, which ones are the right answers, you find out from, personal study.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    OW210,

    The Apostles mention the Temp And the End of the World .

    No, look at the original text. You, and so many others, have blindly read various translations that make it seem like the disciples were querying Christ about the end of the planet. They weren't. They were asking about the end of their age. Because you don't know this, everything you believe is off by some 2,000 years. Take a look at the actual text below:

    Interlinear1.jpg

    The closing Chapters of Ezekiel : describe the Millennial sanctuary which is a larger complex taking up much more land. The temple they were looking at would pale in comparison .
    Man, it's gonna take a lot of work for me to try to help you sort things out. The temple of Ez 40-48 was a grand hypothetical second temple that they would get if they were ashamed of their iniquities. They weren't so they got a much less grand temple. See Ez 43:

    10 “Son of man, describe the temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. 11 And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple and its arrangement..."

    They didn't get this temple and never will. Trust me, we are not going back to animal sacrifices. We now have a spiritual temple and there will never be another temple made with hands that God will honor. This is widely taught in the NT.

    That is to say Satans Locusts armies ( Revelation 9 ) are they which surround Jerusalem at the 6th Trump seal and veil
    2 Thess 2 kjv .
    Because of that it will be polluted.
    The battle in which it will be cleansed of Satan ; and subsequently leveled to the ground is called The Battle of Armageddon . And it did Not happen in 70 AD .
    There is no such thing as "the Battle of Armageddon." The valley of Megiddo is where the Roman armies gathered along with conscripts from Syria and nations from across the Euphrates before attacking southern Israel. Read Rev 16:16 again. They GATHER there, they don't fight there. I have been to this place several times, its to the northwest of Jerusalem. If you read on a couple of verses to 16:19 you will see that the "great city" was divided into three parts. In fact Jerusalem was divided up into three as recorded by Josephus.

    Peter knows about the end of the age Christ returns in, the last days because he taught it .Why wouldnt he ?
    You wrote so much but again, wrong. I know this is what you've been taught but it's all wrong. Peter was discussing the end of the planet, he was discussing the end of his nation in terms his contemporaries would understand. Don't we write the same way to people we know? In the below, when Peter says "last days" he means the last days of Israel.

    3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days.

    He uses the same term in Acts 2 which I already showed you. This happened at Pentecost

    And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh...

    Back to 2 Pet 3. When he says the heaven will pass away with a great noise and the elements will melt, he's speaking about Jerusalem and the temple being burned up. The people of Jerusalem let out a loud shout when they saw the temple on fire and it lit up the sky so brightly that ships on the Mediterranean could see the blaze. The "works" which get burned up refer to the Temple and all the great craftsmanship that went into its construction. He is not discussing deeds being burned up.

    Here is the account of Josephus, a contemporary of Peter's describing this from War of the Jews, 6-5-1:

    The flame was also carried a long way, and made an echo, together with the groans of those that were slain; and because this hill was high, and the works at the temple were very great, one would have thought the whole city had been on fire. Nor can one imagine any thing either greater or more terrible than this noise; for there was at once a shout of the Roman legions, who were marching all together, and a sad clamor of the seditious, who were now surrounded with fire and sword. The people also that were left above were beaten back upon the enemy, and under a great consternation, and made sad moans at the calamity they were under; the multitude also that was in the city joined in this outcry with those that were upon the hill.


    Sorry, I can't finish addressing everything you wrote at this time. Study history my friend and don't just blindly follow the lazy blind who don't read and simply regurgitate nonsense they learned at seminary.




    Last edited by PlainWord; January 1st, 2018 at 07:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    AB,

    What about the part after the 7th bowl/vial? Rev 19, where the beast is thrown into the LoF? How is that 70 ad? The Roman beast is destroyed in 70 ad? You still haven't answered that one.
    Which beast do you suppose is being discussed in Rev 19? You know there are two beasts in Rev 13, right?

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    AB,

    Well, not exactly. The 7 seals and the 7 trumpets, are one complete story, the story of the scroll. It ends at the 7th trumpet. Then it starts talking about the Roman beast.

    What leads you to conclude that? In Rev 16:19, Jeru is in focus. Now granted, when the "sea" is mentioned in Rev 16, this refers to Rome. However, notice that the bowls are poured out on the "earth" and the "earth" represents Israel.

    What about the part after the 7th bowl/vial? Rev 19, where the beast is thrown into the LoF? How is that 70 ad?
    Was there a nation (beast) destroyed by fire in 70 AD?

    That's just my point, life went on after 70 ad. The kingdom, salvation, and prophecy, all went on. Jesus didn't leave us without a clue as to what will happen to Israel.
    Of course life goes on, we are here, aren't we? Prophesy was fulfilled. What does the 7th angel with the 7th bowl say? "It is done?" What is done? The wrath/punishment, perhaps?

    The broken natural branches suffer God's wrath (withdrawing off blessings) until they are restored to Jerusalem.
    It's a stretch to say God's wrath followed the surviving Jews of 70 AD tormenting them for the next 1,900 years. Yes, they indeed endured many hardships in many of the nations were they were scattered, but they thrived in many places as well. Is the holocaust found in the Bible? If so, show it to me please.

    The time of the kingdom is from the day of Pentecost until Jesus comes at the rapt/resurrection of salvation.
    No, the Word is clear on this point, the kingdom is everlasting (Psm 145:13, Dan 4:3, 34, 6:26, 7:14, 18, 27, Heb 1:8, 2 Pet 1:11, and Rev 11:15).

    Then the planet ends in fire.
    No it doesn't!!! This is perhaps the biggest reason you are still thinking as a futurist on some points. See my post above to OW210. Peter is not discussing the planet earth being destroyed, he is discussing Jerusalem (Heaven) and Israel (earth) being destroyed by fire and this happened circa 70 AD.

    Yes, my brother, but which Jerusalem? 70 ad, or the present restored Jerusalem?
    70 AD. The restored Jerusalem we see today is not mentioned in the Bible, at least not that I can find.

    Jerusalem is not the mother of all harlots. Some harlots yes, but not all harlots.

    The tower of Babel is, Babylon.
    Yikes!! No wonder you are still missing on some details. Of course Jerusalem was the Mother of all Harlots meaning the biggest Harlot. She is called Babylon, after Babel specifically because she is the "Mother of all Harlots." She gave up her husband "God our Father" and worshiped the Caesars instead. She (Jerusalem) was living in an adulterous affair with Rome for 100 years, rejecting their Messiah and stating they have no other God but Caesar (John 19:15). Even her queen, Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa, was having an affair with the married, Titus. The symbolism is too rich to ignore. Babel was the original harlot post flood. This is why Jerusalem is given her name.

    When God destroys this planet, He remembers all the sin since the cleansing of the flood of Noah's day.
    What Biblical support do you have for this statement? Remember, "earth" represented Israel and "heaven" represented Jerusalem.

    For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

    Did the Law pass away in 70 AD or are we all under the Law today? Notice, ALL is fulfilled when the Law passes away?

    The breaking of the 6th/7th seals shows that event. The trumpets show what happens after the 70 ad fall.
    They all dealt with 70 AD. I applaud you for recognizing a lot of things were related to 70 AD which you do far more than most futurists, but you are still getting many things wrong. Show me the transition verse or verses where the author switches from 70 AD and jumps ahead 2,000 years to discuss the end of the planet in any of the passages we've been discussing. Show me where it says, "now many years after this, the following will take place" etc. Is there nothing relevant in 2,000 years of Earth history to discuss that it should be skipped to the end? Did the Bible skip 2,000 years before this or do we have an uninterrupted account of history from creation to 70 AD?
    Last edited by PlainWord; January 2nd, 2018 at 08:15 AM.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    AB,



    What leads you to conclude that? In Rev 16:19, Jeru is in focus. Now granted, when the "sea" is mentioned in Rev 16, this refers to Rome. However, notice that the bowls are poured out on the "earth" and the "earth" represents Israel.

    Was there a nation (beast) destroyed by fire in 70 AD?

    Of course life goes on, we are here, aren't we? Prophesy was fulfilled. What does the 7th angel with the 7th bowl say? "It is done?" What is done? The wrath/punishment, perhaps?

    It's a stretch to say God's wrath followed the surviving Jews of 70 AD tormenting them for the next 1,900 years. Yes, they indeed endured many hardships in many of the nations were they were scattered, but they thrived in many places as well. Is the holocaust found in the Bible? If so, show it to me please.



    No, the Word is clear on this point, the kingdom is everlasting (Psm 145:13, Dan 4:3, 34, 6:26, 7:14, 18, 27, Heb 1:8, 2 Pet 1:11, and Rev 11:15).

    No it doesn't!!! This is perhaps the biggest reason you are still thinking as a futurist on some points. See my post above to OW210. Peter is not discussing the planet earth being destroyed, he is discussing Jerusalem (Heaven) and Israel (earth) being destroyed by fire and this happened circa 70 AD.

    70 AD. The restored Jerusalem we see today is not mentioned in the Bible, at least not that I can find.

    Yikes!! No wonder you are still missing on some details. Of course Jerusalem was the Mother of all Harlots meaning the biggest Harlot. She is called Babylon, after Babel specifically because she is the "Mother of all Harlots." She gave up her husband "God our Father" and worshiped the Caesars instead. She (Jerusalem) was living in an adulterous affair with Rome for 100 years, rejecting their Messiah and stating they have no other God but Caesar (John 19:15). Even her queen, Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa, was having an affair with the married, Titus. The symbolism is too rich to ignore. Babel was the original harlot post flood. This is why Jerusalem is given her name.

    What Biblical support do you have for this statement? Remember, "earth" represented Israel and "heaven" represented Jerusalem.

    For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

    Did the Law pass away in 70 AD or are we all under the Law today? Notice, ALL is fulfilled when the Law passes away?



    They all dealt with 70 AD. I applaud you for recognizing a lot of things were related to 70 AD which you do far more than most futurists, but you are still getting many things wrong. Show me the transition verse or verses where the author switches from 70 AD and jumps ahead 2,000 years to discuss the end of the planet in any of the passages we've been discussing. Show me where it says, "now many years after this, the following will take place" etc. Is there nothing relevant in 2,000 years of Earth history to discuss that it should be skipped to the end? Did the Bible skip 2,000 years before this or do we have an uninterrupted account of history from creation to 70 AD?

    The Great Trib wrath to come is called: The Time of Jacob/Israels trouble

    Believers are delivered from the wrath to be poured our on: a God/Christ, rejecting/unbelieving world.

    Isa 26:
    20 "Come my people, enter our (bridal) chambers & shut the door behind you, "hide yourself until the indignation (wrath) is past"

    21 Behold the Lord comes to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity While the wrath of God is poured out on the earth.

    1 Thes 1:10, And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even """Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come""""
    Rom 5:9 being now justified by his blood, """we shall be saved from wrath""" through him

    1 thes 5:9 """God hath not appointed us to wrath""", but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

    The church escaps the wrath of the great trib soon to be poured out.

    OT examples of God sparing people of Faith/Righteous from coming wrath:

    The angels couldn’t destroy Sodom and Gomorrah until Lot and his family were clear

    Noah and his family were delivered from wrath before the flood came

    The Lord isn't comint to punish The Body of Christ/believers/church. Their iniquity's were forgiven & nailed to His Cross. They will be hidden away with their Bridegroom. Body of Christ/Church have peace & reconcilation. Via belief/FAITH placed in Christ's redemptive sin atoning sacrifice. Found in Jesus death, burial & resurrection 1 Cor 15:1-4.

    The Church Is "Caught-Up" Thes 4:16-17, to be delivered from wrath coming to a rebellious God/Christ rejecting/unbelieving world.
    Silverwings likes this.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    AB,



    Which beast do you suppose is being discussed in Rev 19? You know there are two beasts in Rev 13, right?
    I would say the Roman sea beast.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    ....Man, you sure love your Dan 2 statue....]
    LOL
    that statue is soooooooooooo misused
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    The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    AB,
    What leads you to conclude that?


    The story of the scroll ends, followed by the 7th trumpet. Rev chs 4-11

    The story of the scroll, covers the time of the seals and the trumpets.

    It begins when Israel rejects the gospel kingdom and the first 4 seals are shown.

    The trumpets are linked to the seals by the beast that kills the 2w's. He emerges from the abyss at the 5th trumpet, and kills the 2 w's just before the 7th trumpet.

    The trumpets show the times after 70 ad.

    The first 4 trumpets cover the time of 70 ad until 1967 when Israel was restored to Jerusalem.


    In Rev 16:19, Jeru is in focus.
    This is true, but doesn't say that Jerusalem is Babylon here, it only says that Babylon comes into remembrance.


    Now granted, when the "sea" is mentioned in Rev 16, this refers to Rome.
    The seas, are waters, are people, usually symbolic of the gentile nations. Rev 17:15


    However, notice that the bowls are poured out on the "earth" and the "earth" represents Israel.
    Rev 16:1

    The first 4 bowls/vials are on the 4 parts of creation, earth, sea, fountains/rivers, and sun (heavens) Rev 14:7. That would be where ever Israel is (people).

    Rev 16:2, 1st vial, "upon the men who had the mark of the beast." (No women? ha ha) Is this exclusively Israel? Or any one? gentiles? Anybody who is living in the world/earth of Israel?

    Rev 16:3, 2nd vial, If the sea is Rome, then the wrath is not exclusive to Israel. That means that the wrath includes Rome. The sea, is the sea of the gentile nations.

    Rev 16:3, 3rd vial, If the fountain and waters are the river of blessings to Israel and the gentile world, then that water is polluted, because of the death of God's people. The blessings flow through Israel to the world. So the effects of the blood of Israel touches the gentile nations as well.

    Was there a nation (beast) destroyed by fire in 70 AD?
    No.

    Of course life goes on, we are here, aren't we? Prophesy was fulfilled. What does the 7th angel with the 7th bowl say? "It is done?" What is done? The wrath/punishment, perhaps?
    Jesus said that on the cross also, what is done? Just that part of the whole picture, not the whole picture itself.


    It's a stretch to say God's wrath followed the surviving Jews of 70 AD tormenting them for the next 1,900 years.
    Not really, just the fulfillment of prophecy. That was the time of Jacob's trouble and there will never be another 1900 years like it, or even 7.


    Yes, they indeed endured many hardships in many of the nations were they were scattered, but they thrived in many places as well.
    That was totally the exception. You should know that.


    Is the holocaust found in the Bible? If so, show it to me please.
    Matt 24:22. Unless Hitler would have been stopped, Israel would have ceased to exist, "in the flesh."

    It was the very end of the Jacob's trouble, the tribulation period.

    The survivors and others were driven back to Israel to restore Jerusalem in 1967.


    No, the Word is clear on this point, the kingdom is everlasting (Psm 145:13, Dan 4:3, 34, 6:26, 7:14, 18, 27, Heb 1:8, 2 Pet 1:11, and Rev 11:15).
    Oh yea, How long is the kingdom period on earth? When does the kingdom period on this planet end?

    No it doesn't!!! This is perhaps the biggest reason you are still thinking as a futurist on some points. See my post above to OW210. Peter is not discussing the planet earth being destroyed, he is discussing Jerusalem (Heaven) and Israel (earth) being destroyed by fire and this happened circa 70 AD.
    The trouble is, that the earth isn't always symbolic of Israel. It doesn't always apply to Israel, exclusive of all other interpretations in the symbols.

    There is the element earth, the earth as soil, the earth as a map of the known world.

    Who was the earth before Israel? The favor of God was not exclusive to Israel, before there was an Israel. There were others. Lk 4:25-27.


    70 AD. The restored Jerusalem we see today is not mentioned in the Bible, at least not that I can find.
    The woman in Rev ch 12 is in the wilderness of the gentiles until her time is up, then she leaves and returns home.


    Yikes!! No wonder you are still missing on some details. Of course Jerusalem was the Mother of all Harlots meaning the biggest Harlot. She is called Babylon, after Babel specifically because she is the "Mother of all Harlots."
    But the woman Rev 17:3 is in the wilderness, and Jerusalem was never, the wilderness.

    The woman is a city that sits on the beast of Rome. So it can only be Rome.

    The woman is false religion, Caesar worship, worship the creation. It began at the tower of Babel, that is the mother of ALL harlots.


    She gave up her husband "God our Father" and worshiped the Caesars instead. She (Jerusalem) was living in an adulterous affair with Rome for 100 years, rejecting their Messiah and stating they have no other God but Caesar (John 19:15). Even her queen, Berenice, daughter of Herod Agrippa, was having an affair with the married, Titus. The symbolism is too rich to ignore.
    Babel was the original harlot post flood.


    Then that makes her the mother of all others.

    This is why Jerusalem is given her name.


    The woman in Rev 17, is not Jerusalem.


    What Biblical support do you have for this statement? Remember, "earth" represented Israel and "heaven" represented Jerusalem.


    But not always, is not exclusive to Israel.

    For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
    The Law passed at the cross.

    Did the Law pass away in 70 AD or are we all under the Law today?
    When Jesus died, it was finished.

    Notice, ALL is fulfilled when the Law passes away?


    No, not every prophecy ever written is fulfilled by 70 ad.



    They all dealt with 70 AD. I applaud you for recognizing a lot of things were related to 70 AD which you do far more than most futurists, but you are still getting many things wrong.



    Show me the transition verse or verses where the author switches from 70 AD and jumps ahead 2,000 years to discuss the end of the planet in any of the passages we've been discussing.
    The 1st 4 trumpets, 70 ad until 1967.

    5th trumpet 1929, the Roman beast ascends to sit on the seat of the beast again.


    Show me where it says, "now many years after this, the following will take place" etc.
    Revelation

    Is there nothing relevant in 2,000 years of Earth history to discuss that it should be skipped to the end? Did the Bible skip 2,000 years before this or do we have an uninterrupted account of history from creation to 70 AD?


    It's uninterrupted past 70 ad also, until the resurrection unto salvation that is yet to come, about to happen, When Jerusalem falls.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    ...Man, you sure love your Dan 2 statue....]
    We should rename the image daddy long legs - 2000 year long legs.
    PlainWord likes this.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    The Law passed at the cross.
    No it didn't - heaven earth did not pass at the cross - Jesus told them to watch for the signs of the passing of heaven and earth:

    Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

    Luke 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

    Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    If the Law and heaven and earth passed at the cross then the gospels would have stated so as they were all written after the cross - neither would Paul be claiming Christians were to be dead to a Law that had already passed.


    Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by OtherWay210 View Post
    To PlainWord 2nd reply


    The Apostles mention the Temp And the End of the World .
    But Christ is in fact going to level all of Jerusalem. And beyond .
    The closing Chapters of Ezekiel : describe the Millennial sanctuary which is a larger complex taking up much more land. The temple they were looking at would pale in comparison .




    Armageddon and Hamongog Ezekiel 39:17




    The whole planet will witness Satan stand in Jerusalem claiming to be God, that is the desolator and an abomination as Revelation explains . the symbolism is direct and not open for interpretation .





    These verses refer to Israel established as a nation in modern times. This is what Jeremiah is about, and its prophecy Christ taught




    Before the visitation, they'd have to be first established ( 1948 ) . Not dispersed.

    Visitation, is What we just read in Revelation. Because Satan is the desolation being refered to. If it was about the dispersion, Christ would have ended with that.. Rather He said, the signs would take place after the gather again to the land, to be established as a nation A nation that does not worship Christ. Bad figs .

    But what actually happened ?
    Titus at the behest of Vespasian caused a diaspora. Not an establishment of Israel or the jews as Christ end time teachings called for . So it is Not possible this is past history. Instead as its always clearly been to the believer, and faithful, prophecy of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and the events leading up to His return. Revelation 11:15.



    I would not attempt to use Daniel to further try and muddy the bible by saying its all past already .



    Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    If you think everlasting righteousness is here, your're out of it .Put down the commentaries and works from probably atheist, and pray to God.





    I have a couple of minor disagreements and excerpted sections from a long post to avoid clutter.

    I believe that, unlike Armagedon, The war described in Eze chapters 38-39 will occur before the seventh Seal is opened.

    I believe that Eze 40 was God's plan for the second temple; but Ezra didn't build it that way.

    It was a good post and I cut parts out reluctantly.
    MarcR



    Blessings on you! (Nu 6:24-26)


    Col 3:16-17
    16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
    17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    KJV

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    We should rename the image daddy long legs - 2000 year long legs.
    Brother Locutus,

    The iron isn't 130 yrs approx. as you would claim, that would be, Rome rules over Israel from the invasion until 70 ad. It's a lot longer time than that.

    The iron shows a time line longer than the time of the other metal nations/kings combined.

    So it's not that short of a time span.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by zone View Post
    LOL
    that statue is soooooooooooo misused
    Zone,

    Good to see you sister. I want to publicly thank you for your patience and willingness to teach. It has taken me a few years to come full circle from a partial futurist to pretty much a full preterist and I have you to thank for that. Once I re-read the NT with the preterist mind set, everything you have been saying just jumped off the pages as truth. Everything the disciples were saying was written with a sense of urgency for their generation and audience.

    It was a very difficult thing to accept having been brought up with the belief of a future second coming to realize that it happened in the first century and that we don't have a future rapture or second coming to look forward to (unless there is another not taught, LOL). Most Christians consider these events as rock solid tenants of their faith. Yet, we can all still take comfort that God is on the throne and when we die we immediately go to be with Him which has been the case for every Christian for the past ~2,000 years. We can also be comforted in knowing that the "Great Tribulation" was long in the past and we won't be dealing with marks and beasts, LOL.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by abcdef View Post
    I would say the Roman sea beast.
    Why? Why isn't it the Earth Beast? Which beast had the false prophet? Which beast was captured?

    20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

    Which beast was doing the deceiving? Excerpt from Rev 13 below:

    11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth...

    Thus it was the Earth Beast doing the deceiving and having the false prophet. I know you aren't a fan of Jo Jo but he pretty much records this false prophet and what happens to those who followed him. War 6-5-2:

    The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life.

    A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

    So, Josephus records that about 6,000 men, women and children all died by following a false prophet who tried to convince them by miracles from above that he could save them. Thus, we see prophesy explained and coming to life in the historical record. They died in a "lake of fire," sound familiar?
    Last edited by PlainWord; January 3rd, 2018 at 08:54 AM.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by PlainWord View Post
    Why? Why isn't it the Earth Beast?


    Rev 19:11-21, It is the sea beast, the earth beast, the woman (ch 17), the dragon with 7 heads/10 horns, the scarlet beast, the iron legs/toes, the 4th beast.

    All Rome, all one, all together, one entity, one group, one mind, one nation, one city, one god, Caesar.

    Which beast had the false prophet?
    All of them, the false prophet is Caesar/BoR.


    Which beast was captured?


    All of them.


    20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
    476 ad, the fall of the Roman Empire beast.


    Which beast was doing the deceiving? Excerpt from Rev 13 below:

    11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb and spoke like a dragon. 12 And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence, and causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. 14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth by those signs which he was granted to do in the sight of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth...

    All the beasts are the same entity, Rome.

    All the beasts have the same spirit, Satan.

    All the beasts have the same goal, kill Israel and the gospel kingdom.

    The fire is the judgment of Caesar. Death to those who oppose him.



    Thus it was the Earth Beast doing the deceiving and having the false prophet.


    They are all the same entity. The Roman beast gets his power from Satan. The Roman beast has a leader, that is Caesar/BoR.

    I know you aren't a fan of Jo Jo but he pretty much records this false prophet and what happens to those who followed him. War 6-5-2:


    I like old Jo, I just can't accept it as "scriptural proof/truth".


    The soldiers also came to the rest of the cloisters that were in the outer [court of the] temple, whither the women and children, and a great mixed multitude of the people, fled, in number about six thousand. But before Caesar had determined any thing about these people, or given the commanders any orders relating to them, the soldiers were in such a rage, that they set that cloister on fire; by which means it came to pass that some of these were destroyed by throwing themselves down headlong, and some were burnt in the cloisters themselves. Nor did any one of them escape with his life.

    A false prophet was the occasion of these people's destruction, who had made a public proclamation in the city that very day, that God commanded them to get upon the temple, and that there they should receive miraculous signs of their deliverance. Now there was then a great number of false prophets suborned by the tyrants to impose on the people, who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God; and this was in order to keep them from deserting, and that they might be buoyed up above fear and care by such hopes. Now a man that is in adversity does easily comply with such promises; for when such a seducer makes him believe that he shall be delivered from those miseries which oppress him, then it is that the patient is full of hopes of such his deliverance.

    So, Josephus records that about 6,000 men, women and children all died by following a false prophet who tried to convince them by miracles from above that he could save them. Thus, we see prophesy explained and coming to life in the historical record.


    They died in a "lake of fire," sound familiar?


    The LoF is eternal flame, not the dest of Jeru. What about Satan? was he thrown into the fires of the 70 ad dest also? Rev 20:10? A material, temporal fire?

    Brother,

    This theory Pret. was good for many years. It was based on the idea that Israel would never be restored to Jerusalem, and the RCC was now the kingdom, replacing Israel of the natural branches and the natural broken branches.

    It was good until Israel was restored to Jerusalem, that proved that the prophecies concerning the restoration of Jerusalem were true.

    With Jerusalem restored, the next thing to do would be to look for it in the prophetic time line. It happens when the ToG's end, 1967.

    But now there are 2 Israel's. One in Jerusalem.

    And one Caesar/BoR, sitting on the seat of the beast, in Rome, claiming to be the ONLY true/Israel/church/kingdom.


    The consolidation of Israel allows the Roman dragon beast to deceive the kings of the east (Iran), into attacking Jerusalem, and killing the 2w's. Soon to happen.



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