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Thread: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come... For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. (1 Thessalonians 1:9,10; 5:9-11).

    There are at least a few – if not many – Christians who have failed to grasp this truth, even though the Bible makes it crystal clear that salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”.

    Do we fully understand that when Christ died for our sins, He bore the wrath of God against sinners by Himself, and took upon Himself “the iniquity of us all”? (Isaiah 53:6).

    Do we fully understand that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ will never face God’s wrath, but those who do not believe on Him will do so? (John 3:36).

    God does not want a single human being to face His wrath against sin and sinners. That is exactly why He sent His Son into this world (John 3:16). That is also exactly why the book of Revelation is in the Bible. So that those who are not saved may believe, and receive the gift of eternal life (Revelation 22:17).

    But unless sinners obey the Gospel, they will face “the wrath to come”. So what is this wrath, when does it manifest itself, and against whom is it poured?

    God’s wrath is summed up in “the day of the LORD”, which is described over and over again in the Old Testament. It corresponds to the Great Tribulation. But before the Great Tribulation, there is another period of Tribulation, which corresponds to “the time of Jacob’s trouble”. And all of this is described in Revelation 6-18. Something like this has never occurred before, nor will it be repeated again. The judgments are so severe, that we cannot even imagine their severity, and they are all against the unbelieving and the ungodly.

    But those who are in Christ are “not appointed to wrath” but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ. What this means is that those who have believed on Christ shall be perfected and glorified. They have not simply been saved from Hell, or the penalty, the power, and the presence of sin. They have been saved “to be conformed to the image of His Son”, and since the Son is perfect, the sons of God will be perfected to resemble Him.

    Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    (1 John 3:1-3).
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    this is again where its important to rightly divide the word of truth or u will be mixed up in all kinds of false doctrines.

    replacement theology is the problem here.

    why would the church thats already purified have to go thru the purification of the time of Jacob's trouble? what about the judgment seat of Christ? when is that at? post-tribbers often just skip thru that event. its the u turn rapture.
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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoozy View Post
    this is again where its important to rightly divide the word of truth or u will be mixed up in all kinds of false doctrines.
    Very definitely.
    replacement theology is the problem here.
    This error originated very early -- probably earlier than Augustine -- but it should have been discarded after a careful study of Scripture.
    why would the church thats already purified have to go thru the purification of the time of Jacob's trouble?
    Exactly. When Christ comes FOR His saints, He purifies and perfects them. Otherwise they could not enter Heaven for eternity.
    what about the judgment seat of Christ? when is that at? post-tribbers often just skip thru that event. its the u turn rapture.
    This can only take place when the entire Church is gathered around the Judgment Seat of Christ, and that can only be after the Resurrection/Rapture. And it is to judge to works (and words) of the saints and to give each one the reward that they have earned (or to withhold rewards when they have been forfeited). Then we see the Marriage of the Lamb in Heaven, while the earth is under judgment. And only after that do we see the Second Coming of Christ WITH His saints.

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    Senior Member phil36's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    It certainly is true that we are saved from the wrath to come (propitiation).
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    Soli Deo Gloria

    "After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for" - C H Spurgeon



    • "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    John's "wrath to come" came and went in the 1st century AD - he wasn't warning Christians 2000 years later in stating "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

    His message was for his hearers - not a time capsule for a generation 100's of years later.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    John's "wrath to come" came and went in the 1st century AD - he wasn't warning Christians 2000 years later in stating "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

    His message was for his hearers - not a time capsule for a generation 100's of years later.
    I never realised John wrote 1Thess 1:10?

    and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
    preacher4truth likes this.
    Soli Deo Gloria

    "After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for" - C H Spurgeon



    • "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by phil36 View Post
    I never realised John wrote 1Thess 1:10?

    and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead--Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
    Paul's message was a reiteration of John the Baptist's message.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Paul's message was a reiteration of John the Baptist's message.
    And presumably limited to the first century. Is that your understanding? If so, it is extremely faulty, since the wrath to come includes a period which is completely unique -- never was before and never will be again.

    For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Mt 24:21).

    And this was said long after John the Baptizer warned his hearers.

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    Senior Member phil36's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Paul's message was a reiteration of John the Baptist's message.
    And we also,like those Paul wrote to await The Son's return (Not 70 AD). An those not in Christ will face that wrath to come..the wrath of the final judgement.
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    Soli Deo Gloria

    "After all, there is a Protestantism still worth contending for, there is a Calvinism still worth proclaiming, and a gospel well worth dying for" - C H Spurgeon



    • "What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, creates them by the power of his grace..." - Matthew Henry

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    jb
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post

    God’s wrath is summed up in “the day of the LORD”, which is described over and over again in the Old Testament. It corresponds to the Great Tribulation.
    ).
    So the "day" of the Lord is three and a half years long (the length of the Great tribulation)! lol

    Words fails me over such a twisting and mangling of last day prophetic truth!

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    John was the herald of the wrath to come and the "great and terrible day of the LORD".

    Mal 4:5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.

    I don't see any Elijah around - plenty of wannabees though.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by jb View Post
    So the "day" of the Lord is three and a half years long (the length of the Great tribulation)! lol

    Words fails me over such a twisting and mangling of last day prophetic truth!
    Well then how come you could not come up with the proper interpretation, and show us something different (without twisting the Scriptures yourself)?

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    I don't see any Elijah around - plenty of wannabees though.
    The only reason you don't see Elijah around is because his time has not yet come. Read and study Revelation 11 if you wish to know when Elijah will be around. And hope and pray that you will not be around when Elijah is on earth.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Elijah already came, aka John the Baptist:

    Matt 17:12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

    Matt 17:13 then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.
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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Elijah already came, aka John the Baptist
    In spirit only. Ask John the Baptist, who could never lie and never did lie:

    And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? [Elijah] And he saith, I am not... (John 1:21)

    Yes, John came in the spirit and power of Elijah, and even resembled him outwardly. But the actual Elijah will come only immediately before the great and dreadful Day of the LORD:

    Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD... (Malachi 4:5).

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Unfortunately for you Jesus never claimed that John came in the spirit of Elijah - he stated that John was the Elijah who was to come.

    And the the great and dreadful day of the Lord came within that generation.

    Either Jesus is wrong or you are wrong.

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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Quote Originally Posted by Locutus View Post
    Either Jesus is wrong or you are wrong.
    Neither of us is wrong, but you are wrong in claiming that the great and terrible day of the LORD has already come and gone.

    Jesus knew full well the lineage and purpose of John, as well the the meaning of his name, which was given by God Himself. John was not named "Elijah" but "John". So in view of that, Jesus metaphorically called John "Elijah", since John himself specifically DENIED that he was Elijah, and there could be no conflict between Jesus and John.

    Unfortunately, Locutus, you must go back to square one and start understanding Scripture as it was meant to be understood, not through your Preterist spectacles.

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    Senior Member Locutus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    I don't have to go back to "square one" - show me one saying of Jesus where he says that Elijah will come again when he already claimed Elijah had come.

    Matt 17:12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.”

    You are like John's murderers - not recognizing John as Elijah.

    Mal 4:5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the LORD.

    Mal 4:6 “He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.”

    Luke 1:17It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

    You are failing to recognize that John's ministry is precisely the ministry that Malachi spoke of and that ministry was in the 1st century.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Hello Nehemiah6,

    John was that type of Elijah that was to come, as can be seen from the following. Even Jesus referred to John as that type of Elijah that was to come:

    "And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the parents to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”

    "The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?”
    Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.
    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no account of wrongs. Love takes no pleasure in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

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    Default Re: Salvation includes deliverance “from the wrath to come”

    Wrath to come is hell.

    also there is wrath before second coming after tribulation.

    this is the order

    thribulation, earth and second coming

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