God's sovereignity and man's "freedom"...

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SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
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#1
I have heard this several times that God's sovereignty and man's freedom are like two parallel lines that will meet in eternity. Thanks to Dr. R.C. Sproul, he has debunked this ideology.




In the above picture, you see two railroad tracks that run parallel to each other. If you look off into the distance, it does look like they meet on the horizon. However, in reality, they do not. If these two tracks meet, 1) they are not parallel to each other, and 2) the train and all the ppl on it are in grave trouble, as they will crash. So, in reality, God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will never meet anywhere.

Man does have a "freedom", but this "freedom" is confined to his nature. Look no further than Joseph being betrayed and sold into slavery by his brothers. They wanted to kill him, but one of his brothers, I think it was Reuben, talked them out of doing that, and sold him into slavery instead. No one coerced them into doing this, as they freely and gladly ridded themselves of their younger brother. As Joseph told them later, "you did it for evil, God did it for good." So there's man's freedom and God's sovereignty in full view.

Then there's the cross of the Christ. As Peter stated "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."[Acts 2:23] Again, no one coerced them into having the Christ crucified. They acted in accordance with their wicked hearts, as they hated the Christ with nary a cause to do so. As the Christ plainly stated, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’[John 15:25]

So, the sooner ppl realize that God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will meet nowhere, and that both are biblically true, the sooner we can go on to debating real truths.
 
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notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#2
Man's will and God's will are not parallel. They are divergent. God's train only runs on one rail.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#3
I have heard this several times that God's sovereignty and man's freedom are like two parallel lines that will meet in eternity. Thanks to Dr. R.C. Sproul, he has debunked this ideology.




In the above picture, you see two railroad tracks that run parallel to each other. If you look off into the distance, it does look like they meet on the horizon. However, in reality, they do not. If these two tracks meet, 1) they are not parallel to each other, and 2) the train and all the ppl on it are in grave trouble, as they will crash. So, in reality, God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will never meet anywhere.

Man does have a "freedom", but this "freedom" is confined to his nature. Look no further than Joseph being betrayed and sold into slavery by his brothers. They wanted to kill him, but one of his brothers, I think it was Reuben, talked them out of doing that, and sold him into slavery instead. No one coerced them into doing this, as they freely and gladly ridded themselves of their younger brother. As Joseph told them later, "you did it for evil, God did it for good." So there's man's freedom and God's sovereignty in full view.

Then there's the cross of the Christ. As Peter stated "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death."[Acts 2:23] Again, no one coerced them into having the Christ crucified. They acted in accordance with their wicked hearts, as they hated the Christ with nary a cause to do so. As the Christ plainly stated, ‘THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.’[John 15:25]

So, the sooner ppl realize that God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will meet nowhere, and that both are biblically true, the sooner we can go on to debating real truths.
Could you define "God's sovereignty" since it's not found in the Bible? Please use Scripture verses to describe and not manmade definitions.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
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#5
What? What? Which Bible have you been reading?
The word "sovereign" is not found in the KJV so I am curious how people use the Bible to define God's attributes.
 
May 11, 2014
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#6
The word "sovereign" is not found in the KJV so I am curious how people use the Bible to define God's attributes.
There we go.

While the word sovereign may not be found in your favorite bible translation, the concept certainly is.

God is the ruler and king of all. Sovereign Lord. Almighty.
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
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#7
Wouldn't Lord of lords and King of kings be sovereign?
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#8
Wouldn't Lord of lords and King of kings be sovereign?
If only you could figure out how to use your favorite buzz word.

There is no question that God is sovereign. It is Gods way or the highway. We need to be like Joshua.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

joaniemarie

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2017
3,198
303
83
#9
A good question is what does God's sovereignty have to do with how we view Him and us? Does it mean God never changes His mind? Does it mean we can be on a course of destruction (and rightly so) but when we pray in the name of Jesus., God changes our course?.... but if we didn't pray., our course might not have been changed? Yes. Prayer changes things.

God's sovereignty is a fact but how it plays out in our lives is a mystery. What is not a mystery is we need to have a close relationship with Jesus every day that includes talking to Him and Him talking to us through the Holy Spirit and by reading the Bible and "allowing" the Holy Spirit to lead us if we want God's will done in our lives. If we don't do those things., God's will is not going to be done in our lives.

For myself., I don't worry about the major mysteries anymore but I do want to be in His will and how to be in His will is not a mystery.
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
909
252
63
#10
A good question is what does God's sovereignty have to do with how we view Him and us? Does it mean God never changes His mind? Does it mean we can be on a course of destruction (and rightly so) but when we pray in the name of Jesus., God changes our course?.... but if we didn't pray., our course might not have been changed? Yes. Prayer changes things.

God's sovereignty is a fact but how it plays out in our lives is a mystery. What is not a mystery is we need to have a close relationship with Jesus every day that includes talking to Him and Him talking to us through the Holy Spirit and by reading the Bible and "allowing" the Holy Spirit to lead us if we want God's will done in our lives. If we don't do those things., God's will is not going to be done in our lives.

For myself., I don't worry about the major mysteries anymore but I do want to be in His will and how to be in His will is not a mystery.
Yes ma'am. Amen!
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#11
A good question is what does God's sovereignty have to do with how we view Him and us? Does it mean God never changes His mind? Does it mean we can be on a course of destruction (and rightly so) but when we pray in the name of Jesus., God changes our course?.... but if we didn't pray., our course might not have been changed? Yes. Prayer changes things.

God's sovereignty is a fact but how it plays out in our lives is a mystery. What is not a mystery is we need to have a close relationship with Jesus every day that includes talking to Him and Him talking to us through the Holy Spirit and by reading the Bible and "allowing" the Holy Spirit to lead us if we want God's will done in our lives. If we don't do those things., God's will is not going to be done in our lives.

For myself., I don't worry about the major mysteries anymore but I do want to be in His will and how to be in His will is not a mystery.
What a great thought. Thank you. Prayer has the ability to change God's mind and alter the course of history.
 
May 11, 2014
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#13
What a great thought. Thank you. Prayer has the ability to change God's mind and alter the course of history.
That is called an Anthropomorphism.

God already knows, when God repents or changes His mind in the scriptures, it is not like a human being saying "oops!".

You cannot just take a verse that states God repents and then make that the end all be all for the rest of Scripture. You must look at the entire revelation, with both eyes open.

Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';"
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#14
GOD Is Omiscent,Omnipresent and Omnipotent.
Agreed, but we have to allow Scripture to define what these mean and not use man made definitions and then put God into our definitions.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#15
That is called Anthropomorphism.

God already knows, when God repents or changes His mind in the scriptures, it is not like a human being saying "oops!".

You cannot just take a verse that states God repents and then make that the end all be all for the rest of Scripture. You must look at the entire revelation, with both eyes open.

Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';"
There's an ism from everything...

What does Isaiah 46:10 really say? It says that God has declared from the beginning how the end will turn out. Read Revelation and see the Lord ruling and reigning in the new heavens and earth for eternity. It doesn't say He has determined every thing in between.
 
May 11, 2014
936
39
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#16
There's an ism from everything...

What does Isaiah 46:10 really say? It says that God has declared from the beginning how the end will turn out. Read Revelation and see the Lord ruling and reigning in the new heavens and earth for eternity. It doesn't say He has determined every thing in between.
.......

God determined Israel, the birth and even the crucifixion of Jesus. There are too many examples to even list. The truth is that God can do what He wants. No way around that. Do you honestly believe solely by reading Scripture that God declared only how things will end in the book of Revelation but for the rest of human history we are just "free falling"?
Isn't that like deism? Go figure.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
16,540
3,503
113
#17
.......

God determined Israel, the birth and even the crucifixion of Jesus. There are too many examples to even list. The truth is that God can do what He wants. No way around that. Do you honestly believe solely by reading Scripture that God declared only how things will end in the book of Revelation but for the rest of human history we are just "free falling"?
Isn't that like deism? Go figure.
Absolutely, there are some things in Scripture that God has determined. There are other things that are based upon what man does with God's word. See Jonah. Did God lie or change His mind based upon their response to His word of upcoming destruction?
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#18
That is called an Anthropomorphism.

God already knows, when God repents or changes His mind in the scriptures, it is not like a human being saying "oops!".

You cannot just take a verse that states God repents and then make that the end all be all for the rest of Scripture. You must look at the entire revelation, with both eyes open.

Isaiah 46:10 "Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things which have not been done, Saying, 'My purpose will be established, And I will accomplish all My good pleasure';"
That is what happens when the ilk of john146 use versology, they derive their false doctrines from out of context pretexts.
 
May 11, 2014
936
39
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#19
Absolutely, there are some things in Scripture that God has determined. There are other things that are based upon what man does with God's word. See Jonah. Did God lie or change His mind based upon their response to His word of upcoming destruction?
From man's perspective they repented and God relented of the judgment He was about to bring on Nineveh. Mind you that later on it was actually destroyed.

Jeremiah 18 explains this principle further.
 

preacher4truth

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
9,171
2,718
113
#20
So, the sooner ppl realize that God's sovereignty and man's "freedom" will meet nowhere, and that both are biblically true, the sooner we can go on to debating real truths.
I'm not sure what you mean by the bold portion above.