THE THIN LINE BETWEEN "ORTHODOXY" AND BEING DIVISIVE

[sparkman]

Here's a discussion question.

I am all for orthodoxy. If someone doesn't believe in core Christianity, and is trying to teach others unorthodox doctrine on essential Christianity, I go into attack mode. And, I am very concerned about alleged Christians who are challenging sola Scriptura and claiming virtually all doctrines are up for grabs and that guys like me are part of the "old guard" or dinosaurs who are a dying breed (I don't believe that for one minute; I know plenty of younger guys who are gung-ho for core Christian doctrine).

Here's the main question: when does the quest for orthodoxy cross over into being divisive? As a former follower of a man who criticized several core doctrines of Christianity, and had a very divisive nature (in fact, he called the rest of Christianity "so-called believers" following "ministers of Satan" preaching a "counterfeit gospel" and worshiping a "counterfeit Jesus"), I am very suspicious of anyone who criticizes the evangelical Church in an excessive manner.

Here's what I think...it is reflective of the fallen nature, and those individuals are still under the strong influence of the fallen nature. I base this on Galatians 5, and the description of the fruits of the Spirit versus the works of the flesh. I also base it on Scriptures that informed the ministry to expel a contentious, divisive man from the fellowship (Galatians 5:16-22, Titus 3:10).

At the same time, Christ himself criticized the churches in Revelation 2-3, and warned them against impending judgment for their behavior concerning idolatry. Now, the churches were obviously involved in idolatry; it was not a subtle thing.

This topic is pertinent because not only is it the season for Christmas and worshiping the Incarnation, when God came in human flesh, it is also the season for some Christians to hurl insults at one another, claiming they are following paganism in their observance of the holiday.

Now, I know enough about the sources of the accusations to realize that the major perpetrators were academically unqualified and significantly distorted the facts (Alexander Hislop's book "Two Babylons" comes to mind..it is a prime example of academic dishonesty). But annually, the accusations arise that Christians are not much more than pagans committing acts of idolatry during the Christmas season. It's hilarious to see some of the attempts to prove this..I already discussed how Jeremiah 10 is NOT talking about Christmas trees, but these guys insist that it is talking about Christmas trees, over 2000 years before Christmas trees were ever set up. And, you can't reason with these people because they've been indoctrinated by atheists and cultists.

The question is, though, do they ever stop to examine the possibility that they are simply being DIVISIVE over non-essentials? Do they ever stop to think about the possibility that their behavior may be SATANIC, and not those they are accusing? Do they ever stop to think about the SERIOUS issue of divisiveness and contention?

I doubt it.

After I rejected the teachings of the aforementioned dolt, I became aware of the contentiousness and divisiveness of the man. That was the essence of his character. "I am the authority" "I am the apostle" "I am the Elijah to Come" "My position is unchallengeable" yada yada yada...if the eternal state is populated by guys like him, I'd want no part of it.

In case anyone else is interested, here's his picture..probably calling Christians 'dumb sheep heading to the slaughter"...that was one of his favorite lines.

And, unfortunately, sometimes remnants of his programming linger with me Forgive me, Jesus.

Merry Christmas all

 

[LoveGodForever]

How do you go into attack mode when you do not know the scriptures and always point people to the teachings of men from books and websites? Shouldn't we point all to the Word of God over the teachings and traditions of men?

 

[sparkman]

By the way, I'm guessing the sharks will start attacking me on this one for calling them out over their divisiveness. If they want an answer from me, they must inform me of their organization, and whether their organization considers itself to be the "true Church"...the "remnant church"....or whatever. Many of them do believe they have "the Truth" and that Christians from other organizations are deceived churches that are part of the "Whore of Babylon". This came from Alexander Hislop and similar academically challenged individuals largely, and their cult leaders regurgitated it to the membership.

 

[valiant]

How do you go into attack mode when you do not know the scriptures and always point people to the teachings of men from books and websites? Shouldn't we point all to the Word of God over the teachings and traditions of men?

Yes to ALL the word of God rightly divided,

 

[sparkman]

How do you go into attack mode when you do not know the scriptures and always point people to the teachings of men from books and websites? Shouldn't we point all to the Word of God over the teachings and traditions of men?

I see you're still advertising your website, SDA dude

Where do you find in Scripture that masturbation and nymphomania is caused by eating meat? Where do you find in Scripture that abortion is acceptable, like the Seventh Day Adventists teach? Where in Scripture do you find that vegetarianism is promoted, like the SDA church promotes it?

Who are the "other sheep" that Jesus must add to the true fold? Who is the true fold according to SDA teaching? Who is the "remnant church"? What is the Mark of the Beast?

Did mankind have sex with animals prior to the flood and produce hybrids, like your prophetess claimed? She claimed that certain men resemble animals (likely a racist reference) and certain animals resemble men, due to this inbreeding.

Do you realize that your prophetess took a rock to the head as a child, and nearly died? This is the source of her weird visions, unless she was making them up. Her symptoms were very similar to the behavior of other individuals who suffered frontal lobe injuries.

And, is it wrong to observe Thanksgiving? It is a holiday of men as well, but it honors God.

 

[sparkman]

Just so no one is confused by my conclusion, it would be that condemning the behavior of other Christians on non-essential aspects such as holidays is quite often a work of the flesh, and reflects someone who is either 1) unconverted and a tool of Satan or 2) spiritually immature, and possibly a tool of Satan, but maybe just showing their spiritual diapers.

Members of cults could possibly belong to either category...as a cultist, I was saved yet I was spiritually immature and believed the teachings of dolts like Herbert Armstrong and Alexander Hislop. It took a lot of years to mature past that, even after I left his organization.

I have no issue with individuals who hold a sensitivity in this area, though....Romans 14 allows for it

 

[SovereignGrace]

How do you go into attack mode when you do not know the scriptures and always point people to the teachings of men from books and websites? Shouldn't we point all to the Word of God over the teachings and traditions of men?

God gaves us teachers to help us.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Here's the main question: when does the quest for orthodoxy cross over into being divisive

If you are referring to open forums such as this one, you will need to accept the fact that a variety of views will be presented by a variety of individuals.

So they may range from totally liberal to extremely orthodox (or fundamentalist). Since free speech is a fundamental right, everyone is free to express their views, but they are not free to insult others. The only thing that anyone can do is present their own stance, and back it up with Scripture. Some may benefit, and others may reject that view. It does not matter.

Within a local church, it is entirely different. There will generally be a Statement of Faith, so those who do not agree with it should not even join that church. And if they bring in strange doctrines, it is the duty of the elders to deal with the issues.

 

[Johnny_B]

Here's a discussion question.

I am all for orthodoxy. If someone doesn't believe in core Christianity, and is trying to teach others unorthodox doctrine on essential Christianity, I go into attack mode. And, I am very concerned about alleged Christians who are challenging sola Scriptura and claiming virtually all doctrines are up for grabs and that guys like me are part of the "old guard" or dinosaurs who are a dying breed (I don't believe that for one minute; I know plenty of younger guys who are gung-ho for core Christian doctrine).

Here's the main question: when does the quest for orthodoxy cross over into being divisive? As a former follower of a man who criticized several core doctrines of Christianity, and had a very divisive nature (in fact, he called the rest of Christianity "so-called believers" following "ministers of Satan" preaching a "counterfeit gospel" and worshiping a "counterfeit Jesus"), I am very suspicious of anyone who criticizes the evangelical Church in an excessive manner.

Here's what I think...it is reflective of the fallen nature, and those individuals are still under the strong influence of the fallen nature. I base this on Galatians 5, and the description of the fruits of the Spirit versus the works of the flesh. I also base it on Scriptures that informed the ministry to expel a contentious, divisive man from the fellowship (Galatians 5:16-22, Titus 3:10).

At the same time, Christ himself criticized the churches in Revelation 2-3, and warned them against impending judgment for their behavior concerning idolatry. Now, the churches were obviously involved in idolatry; it was not a subtle thing.

This topic is pertinent because not only is it the season for Christmas and worshiping the Incarnation, when God came in human flesh, it is also the season for some Christians to hurl insults at one another, claiming they are following paganism in their observance of the holiday.

Now, I know enough about the sources of the accusations to realize that the major perpetrators were academically unqualified and significantly distorted the facts (Alexander Hislop's book "Two Babylons" comes to mind..it is a prime example of academic dishonesty). But annually, the accusations arise that Christians are not much more than pagans committing acts of idolatry during the Christmas season. It's hilarious to see some of the attempts to prove this..I already discussed how Jeremiah 10 is NOT talking about Christmas trees, but these guys insist that it is talking about Christmas trees, over 2000 years before Christmas trees were ever set up. And, you can't reason with these people because they've been indoctrinated by atheists and cultists.

The question is, though, do they ever stop to examine the possibility that they are simply being DIVISIVE over non-essentials? Do they ever stop to think about the possibility that their behavior may be SATANIC, and not those they are accusing? Do they ever stop to think about the SERIOUS issue of divisiveness and contention?

I doubt it.

After I rejected the teachings of the aforementioned dolt, I became aware of the contentiousness and divisiveness of the man. That was the essence of his character. "I am the authority" "I am the apostle" "I am the Elijah to Come" "My position is unchallengeable" yada yada yada...if the eternal state is populated by guys like him, I'd want no part of it.

In case anyone else is interested, here's his picture..probably calling Christians 'dumb sheep heading to the slaughter"...that was one of his favorite lines.

And, unfortunately, sometimes remnants of his programming linger with me Forgive me, Jesus.

Merry Christmas all

My Brother, there is a saying that fits this, "If it is new, it is not true and if it is true, it is not new." I like to point the Jeremiah crew to Isaiah 44:12-20 because it gives a better explanation of what the Lord thinks of idolitry and how illogical it is, here it is.

“The ironsmith takes a cutting tool and works it over the coals. He fashions it with hammers and works it with his strong arm. He becomes hungry, and his strength fails; he drinks no water and is faint.13 The carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house.14 He cuts down cedars, or he chooses a cypress tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest. He plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it.15 Then it becomes fuel for a man. He takes a part of it and warms himself; he kindles a fire and bakes bread. Also he makes a god and worships it; he makes it an idol and falls down before it.16 Half of it he burns in the fire. Over the half he eats meat; he roasts it and is satisfied. Also he warms himself and says, “Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!”17 And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol, and falls down to it and worships it. He prays to it and says, “Deliver me, for you are my god!”

18 They know not, nor do they discern, for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their hearts, so that they cannot understand.19 No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, “Half of it I burned in the fire; I also baked bread on its coals; I roasted meat and have eaten. And shall I make the rest of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?”20 He feeds on ashes; a deluded heart has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, “Is there not a lie in my right hand?”

It is what Jeremiah is talking about how illogical idolatry is, taking some to warm yourself, to bake bread, then from the same tree you take a piece to the ironsmith and carpenter to make something that you are going to worship. But never thinking of how you cut it down used it for your basic needs, warmth and cooking food. Now you are going to take that piece that the ironsmith and carpenter fashioned to a god and worship it, when they cannot hear, see or speak and the idolator does not see the stupidity of it all.

Brother remember that this was spoken of by the apostle Paul says in I Timothy 4:1-5 “Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,2 through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared,3 who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.[SUB]4 [/SUB]For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving,5 for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.”

This word for faith is the same as was used in Acts 14:27 “And when they arrived and gathered the church together, they declared all that God had done with them, and how he had opened a door of faith to the Gentiles.”

This faith is the faith of the Church, not ones faith, but the teaching of the Church and we see that happening a lot and espesically on this site. I am beginning to believe there are more people here that beieve in heresy, then believe in the orthodoxy of the Christian faith. Every heresy that the apostles and the early Church fathers were dealing with are being taught as orthodox Christianity now a days. It amazes me how people that are educated will read the Bible like it needs to be read differently from any other work of literature. It is the idea that the Bible is to be read as a book that needs a different form of hermenutics to read it, when it only takes elementary reading to read the Bible, no special rules or understanding or spiritual insight needed to understand it.

Sparkman I feel you bother, we are not off kilter and there are those out there that are understanding and believing the truth of the Gospel. For the last 4 months my daugther and I have been attending a Church that the Elders are 35 and under and I am amazed as to how I am learning from these young men. I fell like I did when I was a new believer, it is not that they are teaching something I have never heard, it is that they are bringing angles that I cannot see because I have my own view of what the Word teaches. Be of goof cheer Brother, there are and is a remnet of believers that hold to the same values of Christ and the Gospel that shows that yes there is and will be a falling away from the faith, but there will always be a remnet to the Lord that has not bowed the knee to the heresies of the day, that are nothing new, but they are still around.