SHOULD BELIEVERS PRAY FOR THE SALVATION OF OTHER INDIVIDUALS?

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DO OUR PRAYERS TO GOD MAKE A POSITIVE OUTCOME MORE LIKELY?

  • YES, OUR PRAYERS MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND INCREASE THE CHANCES OF A POSITIVE OUTCOME.

    Votes: 18 94.7%
  • NO, OUR PRAYERS DO NOT MAKE A DIFFERENCE, AND DO NOT INCREASE THE CHANCE OF A POSITIVE OUTCOME

    Votes: 1 5.3%

  • Total voters
    19
Feb 1, 2014
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#1
I'm wondering what you guys think of this.

Some unnamed verbose chatter claimed that it is inappropriate for a believer to pray for God to save specific unbelievers, because that implies the person being prayed for would have a greater chance of coming to faith than a person that is not prayed for. Therefore, that would make God a respecter of persons, which violates his absolute view of salvation being a result of the free will decision of the person.

He called the individuals in the room a bunch of mindless Reformed people for objecting to his view.

I am a Reformed person, and my view is that God ordains both the MEANS and the END. So, while the END is already assured in God's mind, the MEANS are important and are a product of God's sovereignty too. God allows humans to be instruments of the extension of his sovereign grace. So, my view is coherent, whether others agree with it or not.

Here's the poll..do our prayers affect the salvation of others? If you agree or disagree, on what Scriptural basis do you present to prove the view? Are you Reformed or non-Reformed? If so, how does that perspective affect your answer? How does your view on free will affect your response?
 
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Jul 23, 2017
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#2
dont know if it affects their salvation.

God told us to pray for all people. so do it

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#3
Concerning free will, I want to clarify.

I believe in free will subject to the person's nature. Therefore, a fallen man makes free will decisions according to his fallen nature, which is enslaved to sin.

I do not believe in autonomous or libertarian free will. I do not believe that the person can consistently make decisions that are contrary to his fallen nature.

So, if you believe in creaturely free will or autonomous free will, then maybe you can describe how that affects your answer to my poll questions.

I use the analogy of a fish in a pond. The fish can swim around in the pond all he wants, but he isn't free to jump onto the land and live, due to his limitations. The fallen nature is the pond for the fallen man. Until God removes the nature, through regeneration, then he makes decisions within those parameters.

The fish, and the fallen man, doesn't have true free will, and is enslaved to sin according to Scripture.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#4
dont know if it affects their salvation.

God told us to pray for all people. so do it

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
Good scripture :)
 
Nov 12, 2017
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#5
Concerning free will, I want to clarify.

I believe in free will subject to the person's nature. Therefore, a fallen man makes free will decisions according to his fallen nature, which is enslaved to sin.

I do not believe in autonomous or libertarian free will. I do not believe that the person can consistently make decisions that are contrary to his fallen nature.

So, if you believe in creaturely free will or autonomous free will, then maybe you can describe how that affects your answer to my poll questions.

I use the analogy of a fish in a pond. The fish can swim around in the pond all he wants, but he isn't free to jump onto the land and live, due to his limitations. The fallen nature is the pond for the fallen man. Until God removes the nature, through regeneration, then he makes decisions within those parameters.

The fish, and the fallen man, doesn't have true free will, and is enslaved to sin according to Scripture.
I believe in freewill.

So. No I don't think that we can pray for another's salvation. God is not going to coerce so nor can we. But we can pray for ears to be open, eyes to be open to His gospel. Not to mention the Holy Spirit is doing His Job at all times.

So your analogy of the pond is a good one. I just believe that there is something missing in the pond you describe.

The life preserver that God threw out in the pond. And it is bright red, for all to see and come to.

John 12:32
New American Standard Bible

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


 
Jul 23, 2017
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#6
mercy4u where does it say that God wont "force"?
i just posted a verse saying to pray for all men (in context it lists kinds of people like kings etc but still). and u say nah we cant pray for that. God says to pray for it

what about what happened to Paul? was that forced?

daniel 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”

i cant find any verse saying that God cant coerce people. if u can find it i will believe it.
 
Feb 1, 2014
733
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#7
dont know if it affects their salvation.

God told us to pray for all people. so do it

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
That should have been a third choice, brother...something like, I don't know, but I pray because God tells me to. I believe prayer makes a tangible difference, but at the same time, it is an issue with obedience too.
 
Feb 1, 2014
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#8
I believe in freewill.

So. No I don't think that we can pray for another's salvation. God is not going to coerce so nor can we. But we can pray for ears to be open, eyes to be open to His gospel. Not to mention the Holy Spirit is doing His Job at all times.

So your analogy of the pond is a good one. I just believe that there is something missing in the pond you describe.

The life preserver that God threw out in the pond. And it is bright red, for all to see and come to.

John 12:32
New American Standard Bible

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."


I don't want to get off into a discussion about John 12:32 but realize that Jews thought that they alone were capable of having a relationship with God..therefore the concept of the Gentiles being drawn to salvation by God was foreign. I think this is what is being referred to by John 12:32, especially since the previous verses involved Greeks that wanted to see Jesus.

So, I would view "all men" as being "all kinds of men" for CONTEXTUAL REASONS.

I also don't believe all of mankind who has ever lived knows about Jesus, which is the only way a person can be saved. And, I don't believe the Amorite high priest in Moses' day had the same salvation opportunity as Moses. Those who claim that everyone has had an equal opportunity for salvation have a lot of questions to answer..including whether people in other countries have had the same access to the gospel, which involves a knowledge of Jesus and his atoning work, as anyone else.

And, I don't think general revelation is adequate for salvation, although it can convict the person of God's existence and his accountability before God (Romans 1-3). All of mankind STILL has rejected that revelation, and went into sin despite it, as Romans 3 says, no one is righteous, no not one, and they don't seek God...a proof of the universal depravity of humans.
 
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Feb 1, 2014
733
33
0
#9
mercy4u where does it say that God wont "force"?
i just posted a verse saying to pray for all men (in context it lists kinds of people like kings etc but still). and u say nah we cant pray for that. God says to pray for it

what about what happened to Paul? was that forced?

daniel 4:35 all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing,and he does according to his will among the host of heaven
and among the inhabitants of the earth;
and none can stay his hand
or say to him, “What have you done?”

i cant find any verse saying that God cant coerce people. if u can find it i will believe it.
I'd also bring up Jonah..Jonah didn't want to fulfill his vision yet God didn't take no for an answer.

I don't think God "forces" anyways..he changes the nature so the person responds positively in faith and repentance. In other words, God regenerates prior to faith and repentance..it's virtually a simultaneous act. The fallen nature cannot respond positively to God...so a change is needed to allow them to choose God..and this choice is assured due to the changed nature, or being born again.

This is the opposite of the Arminian view of regeneration...they would claim it follows faith and repentance, and doesn't precede it...instead they believe in something very close called "prevenient grace" that is an "in between" period where the fallen man is given grace to choose or reject God, and it can go either way.

One thing to consider..I wonder if those who deny God influences the person's salvation think that Satan isn't doing the opposite, and if so, then does Satan have more power to influence the person's salvation than God? In other words, God must keep his hands off the person, but Satan has free reign over him. Or, do they deny Satan and sin enslaves the non-believer?

I wonder if they think ancient Israel, which is a type of the believer, could have just waltzed out of Egypt despite Pharaoh's enslavement of them; that it was purely Israel's decision, and that God asked their permission to bring them out? God TOLD Moses what he was going to do. Israel didn't have a group vote to decide whether they wanted to come out or not. In fact, they complained about being taken out of Egypt after he did it. They were more content in their slavery.
 
Nov 12, 2017
203
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#10
I don't want to get off into a discussion about John 12:32 but realize that Jews thought that they alone were capable of having a relationship with God..therefore the concept of the Gentiles being drawn to salvation by God was foreign. I think this is what is being referred to by John 12:32, especially since the previous verses involved Greeks that wanted to see Jesus.

So, I would view "all men" as being "all kinds of men" for CONTEXTUAL REASONS.

I also don't believe all of mankind who has ever lived knows about Jesus, which is the only way a person can be saved. And, I don't believe the Amorite high priest in Moses' day had the same salvation opportunity as Moses. Those who claim that everyone has had an equal opportunity for salvation have a lot of questions to answer..including whether people in other countries have had the same access to the gospel, which involves a knowledge of Jesus and his atoning work, as anyone else.

And, I don't think general revelation is adequate for salvation, although it can convict the person of God's existence and his accountability before God (Romans 1-3). All of mankind STILL has rejected that revelation, and went into sin despite it, as Romans 3 says, no one is righteous, no not one, and they don't seek God...a proof of the universal depravity of humans.
Hello Sparkman.

My real argument and frustration is with the Arminian theology that is so prevalent today. And their Idea of loss of salvation,maintaining salvation and working for salvation.

With reformed theology, IMO, they are so stuck on the Sovereignty of God and the fact that human freewill somehow "infringes" on His sovereignty, that they overlook that Gods sovereignty is based upon His Justice,righteousness and character.

He will not act out of His character. He bases everything on righteousness and perfect justice.

He condemned us at birth, before we did a single thing.......that makes everybody 'savable' based upon His perfect righteousness and justice.

New American Standard Bible
"When I select an appointed time, It is I who judge with equity.

New American Standard Bible
And He will judge the world in righteousness; He will execute judgment for the peoples with equity.

New American Standard Bible
Before the LORD, for He is coming to judge the earth; He will judge the world with righteousness And the peoples with equity.

New American Standard Bible
Say among the nations, "The LORD reigns; Indeed, the world is firmly established, it will not be moved; He will judge the peoples with equity."

 

Beez

Senior Member
Nov 27, 2017
463
83
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#11
. . . I am a Reformed person, and my view is that God ordains both the MEANS and the END. So, while the END is already assured in God's mind, the MEANS are important and are a product of God's sovereignty too. God allows humans to be instruments of the extension of his sovereign grace. So, my view is coherent, whether others agree with it or not.

Here's the poll..do our prayers affect the salvation of others? If you agree or disagree, on what Scriptural basis do you present to prove the view? Are you Reformed or non-Reformed? If so, how does that perspective affect your answer? How does your view on free will affect your response?
I do not believe that my prayers, in any way, change the Mind of G-D toward others, change circumstances, effect salvations, etc. As a still-new Reformed person, who was an extreme Arminian, for over half of a century, I am still learning.

I believe G-D uses prayer to both educate and to change the one praying, thus setting the one praying in motion according to His plan.

I believe G-D already knows all things, thus His plans are already in working order, and He doesn't need either this little human's submission to carry out His will, or this little human's advice on how to work out His plan.

Scriptural reference for my understanding? Wow! It's all over that Book of His!! But I never saw it as that extremist Arminian. (I call it "extremist" because I chatted with some real Arminians a few months ago, and they were appalled at the belief, saying it wasn't really Arminian.)
 
M

Miri

Guest
#12
Prayer makes a difference, for some reason God had chosen us to work
with Him, the Almighty God who created the universe works with us and
through us, that’s amazing.

Here is the best example in the bible that I can think of.


Genesis 18:20-33 NKJV
[20] And the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom
and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave,
[21] I will go down now and see whether they have done
altogether according to the outcry against it that has come
to Me; and if not, I will know."

[22] Then the men turned away from there and went toward
Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the LORD. [23] And
Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the
righteous with the wicked?

[24] Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would
You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous
that were in it? [25] Far be it from You to do such a thing as
this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous
should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the
Judge of all the earth do right?"

[26] So the LORD said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within
the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes."
[27] Then Abraham answered and said, "Indeed now, I who am
but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the
Lord: [28] Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous;
would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?" So He said,
"If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it."

[29] And he spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose there
should be forty found there?" So He said, "I will not do it for
the sake of forty." [30] Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry,
and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?" So
He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."

[31] And he said, "Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak
to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?" So He said, "I will
not destroy it for the sake of twenty." [32] Then he said, "Let not
the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten
should be found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it for
the sake of ten." [33] So the LORD went His way as soon as He had
finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.
 

Laish

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2016
1,666
448
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#13
I'm wondering what you guys think of this.

Some unnamed verbose chatter claimed that it is inappropriate for a believer to pray for God to save specific unbelievers, because that implies the person being prayed for would have a greater chance of coming to faith than a person that is not prayed for. Therefore, that would make God a respecter of persons, which violates his absolute view of salvation being a result of the free will decision of the person.

He called the individuals in the room a bunch of mindless Reformed people for objecting to his view.

I am a Reformed person, and my view is that God ordains both the MEANS and the END. So, while the END is already assured in God's mind, the MEANS are important and are a product of God's sovereignty too. God allows humans to be instruments of the extension of his sovereign grace. So, my view is coherent, whether others agree with it or not.

Here's the poll..do our prayers affect the salvation of others? If you agree or disagree, on what Scriptural basis do you present to prove the view? Are you Reformed or non-Reformed? If so, how does that perspective affect your answer? How does your view on free will affect your response?
Ok here is my belief on the subject. We should pray for all yet in our prayers we should also pray that we are to be confirmed to His will . Praying that we are used for His Glory an that we are to become a more desirable instrument for His plans of salvation. Not on a individual level but for all that we may meet .
Not great at explaining my thoughts here I hope ya get what I am driving at .
Now as for Reformed or not Reformed. Yea it’s Reformed here
Blessings
Bill
 

lastofall

Senior Member
Aug 26, 2014
609
38
28
#14
[for me anyway] Yes we should wish with God that none would perish, but that they would rather come to repentance: for repenting is voluntary, just as continuing in sin is voluntary.

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing (wishing) that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (1 Peter 3:9)
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,195
6,509
113
#15
We are to pray for our enemies. We are to pray for all people.

This by no means is to be interpreted that we pray for
the endeavor of wickedness in others for when or if we do
we are considered as participating in their wickedness.

Pray for the salvation and blessing of all people, but, again,
never for any prosperity in wickedness, never.
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#16
spark,

you have no idea what 'free-will' means in God's Reality, but we hope and pray that
one day you will...
 
Nov 12, 2017
203
4
0
#17
mercy4u where does it say that God wont "force"?
i just posted a verse saying to pray for all men (in context it lists kinds of people like kings etc but still). and u say nah we cant pray for that. God says to pray for it

what about what happened to Paul? was that forced?
Hello Snoozy.

God does according to His will based upon His character and nature. He cannot act unjustly. He is righteous.

He cannot lie. He cannot sin. He cannot act outside of His perfect nature.

He condemned us at birth. He offered a way of salvation. He would be UNJUST and UNRIGHTEOUS if some were not allowed to believe and be saved.

And if you look a little closer, I agree with you and the verse you posted. We can pray for all men.

But men believe based upon the conviction of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit CANNOT and WILL NOT force someone to believe. He gives everybody the perfect opportunity to believe and lets them weigh it out.


I can't find any verses that say God coerces people to believe and saves them. Even with Paul. God showed Paul exactly what he needed to make an informed choice, and Paul CHOSE to listen.
 

Johnny_B

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2017
1,954
64
48
#18
dont know if it affects their salvation.

God told us to pray for all people. so do it

1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
Amen obedience is better than sacrifice or burnt offerings. I Samuel 15:22-23

“Has the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams.23 For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, he has also rejected you from being king.”
 

SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
5,455
236
63
#20
When I pray, I ask the Father to draw those He chose, that He will draw them through the gospel of His dear Son. I pray and leave the saving to Him. :) :cool: