Are you saved if you are not obedient?

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me get this straight. Jesus wants Nicodemus and the rest of us to understand that we must be physically born and spiritually born in order to be saved? I am so glad you cleared that up for me. I thought the term for physical birth in the Bible was born of woman. Where else is human birth called being "born of water"?

Or you could sit there and listen to the conversation.

1. Jesus, You must be born again

2. Nicodemus - You mean I must enter my mothers womb (water) and be born again?

3. Unless you are born of Water (physical) and spirit, you can not enter the kingdom of God, That which is flesh (water) is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit.

Nicodemus posed the flesh argument, Jesus took it and used it to explain a spiritual truth, that we may be physically alive (water or flesh) but we are spiritually dead, we must be BORN AGAIN spiritually.

But let men guess, You think water means water baptism, even though NO PLACE in his discussion with Nicodemus did Jesus even mention baptism.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Many in the trust only groups see works under every rock they come across. They are quick to accuse anyone who even so much as suggest obedience is a necessary aspect toward salvation of heresy. All the while blind to their own self-imposed work of correctly accepting their strict formula of faith alone regeneration theology. A theology so strict that its acceptance borders on the esoteric.

It takes little effort to see that many on this thread are followers of this theology.

You know this strawman is getting real old. Do you really think people who are open minded and come into these discussions see faith only people slamming obedience? The only people who see this is the WORKS group. Because they refuse to admit they teach works, and have to attack people who are against them so they do not have to live up to what they really teach.

NO ONE HERE IS SLAMMING OBEDIENCE. We are SLAMMING SELF RIGHTOUS obedience people speak of to MAINTAIN salvation.

learn to know the difference or keep destroying your ability to teach others people by continuing in this lie.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I often hear works-salvationists try to dissect good works -- "works of obedience/works of faith" etc.. from the moral aspect of the law and teach that we are saved by "these" works (works of obedience/works of faith) and just not "those" works (works of the law) yet we cannot dissect good works in general from the moral aspect of the law (Matthew 22:37-40).

Amen, they refuse to look at the biblical defenition of works.

1. A work is something we can boast of (eph 2:9) example. If we are saved by water baptism, we can BOAST of saving ourselves because we did the work to required to earn salvation.

2. Paul said works are done to earn a wage or salary, and also can be boasted of (rom 4) ie, if abraham was saved by leaving his family,. Going to a strange land, sacrificing his son, having a son at an old age, and all the things he did, then savation was a payment for his work, and he most certainly can boast of saving himself.

it is not just the works of the law. it is ANY WORKS.

Again, paul to Titus, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTaEOUSNESS (any good or moral deed) which we have done, but BY HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US by the WASHING and REGENERATION (new birth) of the HS.

 

[Zi]

The Bible also states that Satan has blinded minds.. are they aware or not?

Do you recall what John said in Revelation about those who will be outside of the City? They LOVE what?

 

[NoNameMcgee]

It's sad to see how many people rest their hope for salvation on their own performance and what they do....


I am so greatful to have been called by God to seek the truth...

I am so greatful I have been guided towards a faith in Jesus that leads to assurance...

and I am so greatful to have been delivered from a heart that desired to fulfill my fleshly lusts unto a heart that seeks to please God and be used by Him...

one day we are all going to stand before God

and i doubt any one of us will be able to argue with where He decides to place us because it will be just


I will not depend on my own works


though the works and fruit of the Holy spirit in me is what helped me see i was truely born again

 

[mailmandan]

Amen, they refuse to look at the biblical defenition of works.

1. A work is something we can boast of (eph 2:9) example. If we are saved by water baptism, we can BOAST of saving ourselves because we did the work to required to earn salvation.

2. Paul said works are done to earn a wage or salary, and also can be boasted of (rom 4) ie, if abraham was saved by leaving his family,. Going to a strange land, sacrificing his son, having a son at an old age, and all the things he did, then savation was a payment for his work, and he most certainly can boast of saving himself.

it is not just the works of the law. it is ANY WORKS.

Again, paul to Titus, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTaEOUSNESS (any good or moral deed) which we have done, but BY HIS MERCY, HE SAVED US by the WASHING and REGENERATION (new birth) of the HS.

Amen! It's not just the ceremonial aspect of the law, but the moral aspect as well, which covers good works in general. Faith is faith and works are works.

In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

In regards to works, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[walknlight]

Good Day !

We should look at the Apostle Paul's example's, Abraham who is The Father of FAITH concerning this matter.

(Gal 3:5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
------
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

G3049
λογίζομαι
logizomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
1a) to take into account, to make an account of
1a1) metaphorically to pass to one’s account, to impute
1a2) a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight
1b) to number among, reckon with
1c) to reckon or account
2) to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate
3) by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer
3a) to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on
3b) to suppose, deem, judge
3c) to determine, purpose, decide
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice from G3056

God imputes HIS righteousness to those who believe.

Abraham, who was called out by God, believed God was going to bless him a son at 75 years of age, wife Sarah barren...

Was Abraham obedient in all things, nay, but the focus of his FAITH did not waver..

He simply took God at His word and God declared Him righteous:

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
-------
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

It is not about me, her, him or them,

It is all about God and His Christ Who is His Righteousness...

God Bless!!!

 

[NoNameMcgee]

Good Day !

We should look at the Apostle Paul's example's, Abraham who is The Father of FAITH concerning this matter.

(Gal 3:5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
------
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

G3049
λογίζομαι
logizomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
1a) to take into account, to make an account of
1a1) metaphorically to pass to one’s account, to impute
1a2) a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight
1b) to number among, reckon with
1c) to reckon or account
2) to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate
3) by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer
3a) to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on
3b) to suppose, deem, judge
3c) to determine, purpose, decide
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice from G3056

God imputes HIS righteousness to those who believe.

Abraham, who was called out by God, believed God was going to bless him a son at 75 years of age, wife Sarah barren...

Was Abraham obedient in all things, nay, but the focus of his FAITH did not waver..

He simply took God at His word and God declared Him righteous:

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
-------
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

It is not about me, her, him or them,

It is all about God and His Christ Who is His Righteousness...

God Bless!!!

very well said

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It's sad to see how many people rest their hope for salvation on their own performance and what they do....


I am so greatful to have been called by God to seek the truth...

I am so greatful I have been guided towards a faith in Jesus that leads to assurance...

and I am so greatful to have been delivered from a heart that desired to fulfill my fleshly lusts unto a heart that seeks to please God and be used by Him...

one day we are all going to stand before God

and i doubt any one of us will be able to argue with where He decides to place us because it will be just


I will not depend on my own works


though the works and fruit of the Holy spirit in me is what helped me see i was truely born again

Amen bro, I can’t imagine people who think they will stand before God and when he asks why they should be let in, they start naming all these great works they did, how they stopped doing these sinful acts., How they were obedient to him and did what he required and think Jesus is going to say, ok, you may enter in, well done.

Talk about a slap to his face..

If God asks me that, there is only one answer, You should not let me in Jesus, But you died for me, and said if I recieved you gift based on your work on the cross. I would be saved, and I trusted you.

It is up to God to keep his promise, not up to me, I am not trustworthy, and my work is as filthy rags,,

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen! It's not just the ceremonial aspect of the law, but the moral aspect as well, which covers good works in general. Faith is faith and works are works.

In James 2:21, we notice that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22.

The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to save him, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

In regards to works, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

People do not understand the context.

In romans 4 paul was trying to convince people who were trying to inject works into the gospel. That we are not saved by works, but by faith alone and he used abraham as an example. His fight was against legalism, and his context is that anyone who tries to earn salvation by works will be lost.

James on the other hand was trying to convince people who were hearers of the word only and not doers. Who had CLAIMED to have faith to examine themselves. If you claim to have faith, yet you are hearers only, can your “CLAIMED” faith save you? If true faith works (as paul said numerous times) then those who have real faith will show real works, they will not be hearers only, but they will also be doers.

Sadly people use their belief as context, and ignore context of the passage.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good Day !

We should look at the Apostle Paul's example's, Abraham who is The Father of FAITH concerning this matter.

(Gal 3:5) He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
(Gal 3:6) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
------
Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

G3049
λογίζομαι
logizomai
Thayer Definition:
1) to reckon, count, compute, calculate, count over
1a) to take into account, to make an account of
1a1) metaphorically to pass to one’s account, to impute
1a2) a thing is reckoned as or to be something, i.e. as availing for or equivalent to something, as having the like force and weight
1b) to number among, reckon with
1c) to reckon or account
2) to reckon inward, count up or weigh the reasons, to deliberate
3) by reckoning up all the reasons, to gather or infer
3a) to consider, take into account, weigh, meditate on
3b) to suppose, deem, judge
3c) to determine, purpose, decide
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: middle voice from G3056

God imputes HIS righteousness to those who believe.

Abraham, who was called out by God, believed God was going to bless him a son at 75 years of age, wife Sarah barren...

Was Abraham obedient in all things, nay, but the focus of his FAITH did not waver..

He simply took God at His word and God declared Him righteous:

Gen 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
-------
John 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

It is not about me, her, him or them,

It is all about God and His Christ Who is His Righteousness...

God Bless!!!

Welcome to CC, excellent first post!

 

[DJ2]

Or you could sit there and listen to the conversation.

1. Jesus, You must be born again

2. Nicodemus - You mean I must enter my mothers womb (water) and be born again?

3. Unless you are born of Water (physical) and spirit, you can not enter the kingdom of God, That which is flesh (water) is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit.

Nicodemus posed the flesh argument, Jesus took it and used it to explain a spiritual truth, that we may be physically alive (water or flesh) but we are spiritually dead, we must be BORN AGAIN spiritually.

But let men guess, You think water means water baptism, even though NO PLACE in his discussion with Nicodemus did Jesus even mention baptism.

But let men guess, You think water means water baptism, even though NO PLACE in his discussion with Nicodemus did Jesus even mention baptism.

Let me guess, you think water means amniotic fluid, even though NO PLACE in the entire bible is natural birth mentioned as "born of water"?

Natural birth is described as being "born of woman" never as "born of water". Gal. 4:4, Job 14:1 and Matthew 11:11 etc. are examples of how the bible refers to child birth. Did Jesus just decide to make up such a bizarre term for child birth on the fly?

"For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." 1st Cor. 11:12

If Jesus wanted to convey child birth to Nicodemus He could have simply said, "A man must be born of woman and of spirit".

If you want to believe that Jesus is meaning amniotic fluid, you go right ahead. I will just chalk it up as another stretch the trust only regeneration groups will go to in order to defend their theology.

 

[mailmandan]

Let me guess, you think water means amniotic fluid, even though NO PLACE in the entire bible is natural birth mentioned as "born of water"?

Natural birth is described as being "born of woman" never as "born of water". Gal. 4:4, Job 14:1 and Matthew 11:11 etc. are examples of how the bible refers to child birth. Did Jesus just decide to make up such a bizarre term for child birth on the fly?

"For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." 1st Cor. 11:12

If Jesus wanted to convey child birth to Nicodemus He could have simply said, "A man must be born of woman and of spirit".

If you want to believe that Jesus is meaning amniotic fluid, you go right ahead. I will just chalk it up as another stretch the trust only regeneration groups will go to in order to defend their theology.

Some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit. I see that you completely disagree.

Now have you considered living water in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT.

*Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism.

In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.

 

[Ralph-]

Amen bro, I can’t imagine people who think they will stand before God and when he asks why they should be let in, they start naming all these great works they did, how they stopped doing these sinful acts., How they were obedient to him and did what he required and think Jesus is going to say, ok, you may enter in, well done.

Talk about a slap to his face..

If God asks me that, there is only one answer, You should not let me in Jesus, But you died for me, and said if I recieved you gift based on your work on the cross. I would be saved, and I trusted you.

It is up to God to keep his promise, not up to me, I am not trustworthy, and my work is as filthy rags,,

Sorry, eternally-gratefull. I can not let you in. You claim you received my free gift but since even by your own admission you are still in Romans 7:14 bondage to sin I see you did not receive it.

..............................................................................................

It was fun people, but Christmas vacation is over. I'm back on the road traveling the world visiting exotic places with AllenW and friends, becoming my elusive, reclusive self again. I'm out.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Let me guess, you think water means amniotic fluid, even though NO PLACE in the entire bible is natural birth mentioned as "born of water"?

Natural birth is described as being "born of woman" never as "born of water". Gal. 4:4, Job 14:1 and Matthew 11:11 etc. are examples of how the bible refers to child birth. Did Jesus just decide to make up such a bizarre term for child birth on the fly?

"For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God." 1st Cor. 11:12

If Jesus wanted to convey child birth to Nicodemus He could have simply said, "A man must be born of woman and of spirit".

If you want to believe that Jesus is meaning amniotic fluid, you go right ahead. I will just chalk it up as another stretch the trust only regeneration groups will go to in order to defend their theology.

what I think is what jesus said

That which is born of flesh (water) is flesh, that which is born of spirit (spirit) is spirit.

He is talking about what born again means. He’d is not talking about physical birth, but spiritual birth

Nicodemus brought up the question, when he asked if he must return to his mothers womb.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit. I see that you completely disagree.

Now have you considered living water in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT.

*Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism.

In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.

It is all quite simple

If baptism was what jesus was talking about. Jesu sleft that important part out.

For God so loved the world. He gave his only son, that whoever believes (not baptism included) shall not perish but HAS ETERNAL LLIFE.

in this one statement, we have

1. New birth (past from death to life
2. The new life is called eternal (it will never end)
3. That new birth is recieved by faith,. Not water baptism (if it was so important, he should never have left it out)

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Sorry, eternally-gratefull. I can not let you in. You claim you received my free gift but since even by your own admission you are still in Romans 7:14 bondage to sin I see you did not receive it.

..............................................................................................

It was fun people, but Christmas vacation is over. I'm back on the road traveling the world visiting exotic places with AllenW and friends, becoming my elusive, reclusive self again. I'm out.

I am sorry, But you are a deciever, and nbot here to discuss the word. But to attack others.

Go ahead and live in your fantasy world.. I will continue to place my faith in christ, NOT MY WORK. And continue to grow to maturity by LOVING GOD, MY NEIGHBOR (including my enemy and those who persecute me) and seeking after the things of the spirit.

Good luck with attempt to stop sin by your power. And denying when you do sin you are in the flesh.

 

[NoNameMcgee]

how can romans 4 be seen any other way ....

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

how can romans 4 be seen any other way ....

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

It is sad, even David understood grace, when he was under law. Yet people today can not understand it..

 

[Zi]

Genuine question.. why bring up natural birth? Born of water? As in only us humans ever enter heaven or can.. if that was a given why not forgo mentioning the obvious? If that's what He's saying

Some would argue that the natural sense of the passage clearly parallels "water" with being born out of a mother’s womb (3:4) and with "flesh" (3:6). Simply stated, Jesus told Nicodemus that in order to see the kingdom of God two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth (which is, of course, accompanied by amniotic "water"); the second is Spirit. I see that you completely disagree.

Now have you considered living water in John 3:5? Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT.

*Did you see that? If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism.

In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.