Are you saved if you are not obedient?

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Are you saved if you are not obedient to Christ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 25.0%
  • No

    Votes: 18 75.0%

  • Total voters
    24
Oct 15, 2017
133
13
0
#1
There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
 
Jul 23, 2017
879
31
0
#2
if someone is living in open rebellion and sin are they really saved? i dont know. i cant tell the heart. i hope so. but based on the bible most likely not.
 
D

dalconn

Guest
#3
Ephesians 2:10

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

We are not saved by good works but we have been saved for good works
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,417
3,468
113
#4
There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
What is your definition of the Word Obedient in relation to scriptures ?

When i comes to our relationship with God what does it entail ?
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,703
1,715
113
#5
[SUB][/SUB]Be obedient to faith,I mean say yes,for GOD so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten SON that whosoever believes In HIM should not perish but have everlasting life.
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#6
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John/Yahanan 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]John 14:23-24, "[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]יהושע [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]answered him, “If anyone loves Me, he shall guard My Word. And My Father shall love him, and We shall come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not guard My Words. And the Word which you hear is not Mine but of the Father Who sent Me.”

[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 11:6, “But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to Yah has to believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who earnestly seek Him.”[/FONT]


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Hebrews 5:9, “And having been perfected, He became the Causer of everlasting salvation to all those obeying Him.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
 

Joidevivre

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2014
3,838
271
83
#7
But we will never obey perfectly enough to ensure our salvation. We as Christians as weak and prone to stumbling. Therefore, Jesus gave us His righteousness (which includes His perfect obedience) to insure our relationship with God.

God looks at the motives of our hearts more than what we do not do or do. He looks for our love towards Him and our desires to live out His directives. Those who really have given their lives to Christ and I would label Christians do this because they all have the Holy Spirit within them continually inspiring, sanctifying and molding us into the image of Christ.

I sure do not worry if I fail in some regard - for I know that mercy covers me just as it did the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies.
But it does not mean that I ignore the ways in which God tells me to live. If I did that, it means that I have never surrendered myself into a relationship with Him.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,867
653
113
#8
Jesus is God manifest in the flesh,God and man in harmony.

When they say obedient to Christ are they saying obedient to Christ as God,or as the man Christ Jesus.

For of course we have to be obedient to Christ for His deity as God,but are they saying obedient to Christ as the man Christ Jesus.

Either way Christ as God,or as the man Christ Jesus,we should be obedient for it is a package deal for the man Christ Jesus is the personal human body of God,and His visible relationship to the saints,and the man Christ's deity is God.

That is absurd for someone to think that we can not be obedient to Christ,and be saved.

How can a person be rebellious against Christ,and be saved.

Are these people willing to go so far in their faith alone,not saved by works,and God chose us in the beginning so we cannot fall,belief,that they think they can do anything and it does not affect their relationship with God,and they are saved.

If they were chosen in the beginning and cannot fall they would assuredly be obedient to Christ nothing wavering.

1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

To obey is better than sacrifice,for the sacrifice of Jesus means nothing if a person is not obedient,and to not obey is as the sin of witchcraft,for you are asserting your own ways,and authority,and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry,for it is sin,and a person is idolizing their own ways,and authority.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

To obey is better than sacrifice,which is why a person that holds unto sin the blood of Christ cannot wash away that sin,because they are being disobedient,and God will not take away what they hold unto.

Mar 7:20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mar 7:22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
Mar 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Some people want to act as if their thoughts and actions do not affect them,and they are still right with God,and led by the Spirit.

But Jesus said it is our thoughts and actions is what defines who we are,for whatever comes out of a person is what is in their heart,so if they sin,and hold unto sin,that is what is in their heart,so how are they clean.

If Christ says something then we should do it,for if not a person is rebellious in which they cannot be saved,and it is not hard to obey Christ,for God said His commandments are not grievous,and we can have the Spirit,so there is no excuse.

That is the problem with many is they act as if there is an excuse for any wrong behavior,and there is not,for we sin because we want to sin,not because we cannot abstain from sin,and a person that hates sin,and does not want to sin,by the Spirit they can abstain from sin,because a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,for they have crucified the flesh with the lusts and affections,and show the ways of the Spirit,and God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able,and will give them a way out of the temptation so they can bear it.

Joh 13:13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
Joh 13:14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

Mat 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Mat 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.

Jesus called Himself Lord and Master,so He is to be obeyed.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Jesus said why call Him Lord and not do what He says,which those that obey are like a person that is built upon a rock,and cannot fall,but those who do not obey are built on sand,and will fall.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
Joh 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Jesus said those that love Him keep His sayings,and those who do not love Him do not keep His sayings.

Jesus represents goodness,and holiness,and if a person holds unto sin,and does not obey Jesus,then how do they love Him,for then they are going against Jesus' character,then that would mean they do not like His character,and are ashamed of Him.

Does the vice president go against the president,or is he with him.Does a baseball player go against the owner or is he with him.Does a worker go against the owner or is he with him.

If we do not obey Christ then we are not with Him,so how are we saved,which Jesus said not all who call Him Lord will be saved,and said they were workers of iniquity,and did not do the will of the Father,which they were disobedient.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The seal of the saints is that they depart from iniquity.

1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Some people do not have the knowledge of God that He wants us to abstain from sin by the Spirit.

Gal 6:6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.
Gal 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
Gal 6:8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
Gal 6:9 And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

God is not mocked for what a person sows that shall they reap,and tells the saints to not be deceived by that.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus told the disciples to go and teach the people to observe all things He commanded them.

2Co 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Not only do we have to obey Christ,but every thought we think is to be to the obedience of Christ,and we have to be obedient until our obedience is fulfilled,so that we can revenge all obedience,for we are equipped to do that.

Jesus said why are you telling a person about the mote in their eye,and you have a beam sticking out of your own eye.Get rid of your beam,and then you can see clearly to help a person with their mote.

If we are not obedient to Christ how do we have the right to tell people about their sins,and to do right.

That is funny that some people say we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,and you see their hypocrisy in society,and then they are telling other people of their sins,and some dogging them out,and pointing out their faults.

They point out the sliver in someone's eye,and the empire state building is sticking out of their own eye.Okay I went too far.

We have to obey or we are not saved,for not to obey means,we are asserting our own ways,and authority,we do not love God or Christ,we do not like Christ's character,and are ashamed of Him.

It is strange that people would say if we are not obedient to Christ,are we saved.It is strange how a nation can endure for a while having some good behavior,and for the most part representing goodness,and morals,and general concern for people,and then stray from it,but it happened to Israel so it can happen to other nations that start out decent,or get in to at some point,and then go astray,and that is human nature that it can get exited about goodness,and morals,but in time will abandon it as the flesh goes back to wanting to have its way,or have its way more.
 
Dec 9, 2011
13,703
1,715
113
#9
:eek:Hello MattforJesus,when you say obedient to CHRIST are you speaking of believe the word of GOD and receive salvation or are you talking about being obedient as In keeping the Ten Commandments so that you receive salvation?
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#10
But we will never obey perfectly enough to ensure our salvation. We as Christians as weak and prone to stumbling. Therefore, Jesus gave us His righteousness (which includes His perfect obedience) to insure our relationship with God.

God looks at the motives of our hearts more than what we do not do or do. He looks for our love towards Him and our desires to live out His directives. Those who really have given their lives to Christ and I would label Christians do this because they all have the Holy Spirit within them continually inspiring, sanctifying and molding us into the image of Christ.

I sure do not worry if I fail in some regard - for I know that mercy covers me just as it did the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies.
But it does not mean that I ignore the ways in which God tells me to live. If I did that, it means that I have never surrendered myself into a relationship with Him.
Am not disagreeing with this by any means. Just want to add a question for consideration.

Can we perfectly believe?
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#11
There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
The answer to this question would have to depend on "what", constitutes "obedience?"
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#12
Who’s standard of obedience are you using?

Gods? No one can live up to that standard/

Mans? There are so many views as to what obedience looks like it would be hard to say what obedience even looks like.

What we do know is this, whoever has been born of God obeys his commands. There is no ands if or buts about it. THEY DO IT.’
 
Nov 17, 2017
130
47
28
#13
I think we need to be Obidient to Christ..live by his commands through the power of the Holy Spirit...once we are born again we are a new creation Christ is in us ...we are disciples of Christ..disobidient to Christ doesn't mean ur nolonger born again...sometimes we get disobidient unwillingly and that's why we ask for Gods grace to help us....unless u choose to be disobedient knowingly yet u know what's right....
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#14
What is your definition of the Word Obedient in relation to scriptures ?

When i comes to our relationship with God what does it entail ?
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

23
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:


24
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.


25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. (James 1:22-25).
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
#15
If we do not obey Christ then we are not with Him,so how are we saved,which Jesus said not all who call Him Lord will be saved,and said they were workers of iniquity,and did not do the will of the Father,which they were disobedient.
I think firstly we need to qualify what obedience means. Secondly if we can qualify what obedience means how do we quantify it?
Thirdly I would also say that for some obedience is a work.

Did not the workers of iniquity not think they were being obedient?

Matthew 7:21-23
I Never Knew You
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

They claim to have done all the right things, they even call him Lord.

For me what stands out here is that Jesus said "I never knew you"

I think for me, we come to know Jesus through faith and faith only.
No amount of obedience or good works has ever saved anyone and it will never do so.


However when we come to know Jesus through faith, true genuine faith it is that faith that saves us.

As a result of this then obedience is not a work.
It's a natural reflection of the new nature that we now have.
As our faith increases so does our obedience.


Obedience without faith or obedience to keep our salvation does not draw us near to God.
It puts up a barrier. There is nothing relational about it.
I would say though that obedience without faith truly indicates no faith. Like the Pharisees.
Obedience to keep salvation or be loved by God is relational but very jaundiced from our viewpoint.

A genuine believer will struggle with obedience and sin but they will also be coming before God and seeking him for help.
The Holy Spirit is our helper.
God works good in all things in order to conform us to the image of Jesus.
That includes our disobedience and the sins we commit.

To obey is better than sacrifice,for the sacrifice of Jesus means nothing if a person is not obedient,and to not obey is as the sin of witchcraft,for you are asserting your own ways,and authority,and stubbo
Psalms 51:16-17
16 For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give it;
You do not delight in burnt offering.
17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—
These, O God, You will not despise.

A broken Spirit and contrite heart God will not despise.
That's what God works with, that's what brings around obedience.
A heart that says "how good am I, sinless and obedient" is not a contrite heart.

Not only do we have to obey Christ,but every thought we think is to be to the obedience of Christ,and we have to be obedient until our obedience is fulfilled,so that we can revenge all obedience,for we are equipped to do that.

Jesus said why are you telling a person about the mote in their eye,and you have a beam sticking out of your own eye.Get rid of your beam,and then you can see clearly to help a person with their mote.

If we are not obedient to Christ how do we have the right to tell people about their sins,and to do right.

That is funny that some people say we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,and you see their hypocrisy in society,and then they are telling other people of their sins,and some dogging them out,and pointing out their faults.
Your first paragraph makes no sense at all.

As for the next two, beam and eye, get rid of that so you can help the other person by telling them about their sin.
Can you not see the hypocrisy that you now fall foul of in your last paragraph?

With reference to this concourse

7:3-5: Jesus exhorts his disciples to minister to others rather than condemning them. Reference to a speck (speck of dust, chip of wood) versus a log in the eye is hyperbolic imagery, intended to heighten the contrast (see 5:29; 23:23-24; Mic 6:6-8).



Having read the whole of your post above you do not come across as a minister but as someone who condemns.

That is funny that some people say we cannot abstain from sin,and sin does not affect our relationship with God,and you see their hypocrisy in society,and then they are telling other people of their sins,and some dogging them out,and pointing out their faults.
Once again I think you fall foul of your quote above.

One thing I do agree with on though is that sin does affect our relationship with God.
I would say mainly from our side.

So can you answer fur me the following

I think firstly we need to qualify what obedience means. Secondly if we can qualify what obedience means how do we quantify it?
Thirdly I would also say that for some obedience is a work.

How do you qualify, quantify and is obedience a work?
 
Jul 23, 2017
879
31
0
#16
The answer to this question would have to depend on "what", constitutes "obedience?"
dont u dare tell us that obedience in hebrews 5:9 means believing. ive heard that too many times. it wont fly
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
113
#17
But we will never obey perfectly enough to ensure our salvation.
But that is not the point of obedience. Our salvation is guaranteed by the finished work of Christ
We as Christians as weak and prone to stumbling.
Therefore we must examine ourselves daily, confess and repent daily, then get up and move on. However, since God gave us His holy Spirit to EMPOWER us for obedience, holiness, and righteousness, we really have no excuse.
Therefore, Jesus gave us His righteousness (which includes His perfect obedience) to insure our relationship with God.
Once again, we are mixing up justification with sanctification. Not sure why Christians are unable to see the big picture.
God looks at the motives of our hearts more than what we do not do or do. He looks for our love towards Him and our desires to live out His directives. Those who really have given their lives to Christ and I would label Christians do this because they all have the Holy Spirit within them continually inspiring, sanctifying and molding us into the image of Christ.
Now we are back on the topic and all of this is true.
 

Enow

Banned
Dec 21, 2012
2,901
39
0
#18
There are many threads about salvation being not of works, and how salvation occurs.

The other threads deal with how salvation occurs and are a merrygoround of one side saying saving faith is never void of works and one is saying you are not saved if you dont have works.
Its a never ending circle, so I wanna make a new thread with the purpose of asking a simple yes or no question.

Is an individual saved who is not obedient to Christ?

For Scripture I would bring up:

Hebrews 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,
But obey Him as what? Obey Him by believing in Him as the author of our eternal salvation?

Hebrews 5:[SUP]7 [/SUP]Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;[SUP] 8 [/SUP]Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;[SUP] 9 [/SUP]And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; KJV

Notice the difference in the KJV when your version removed Him as being the author of our eternal salvation rather than the source? I reckon it depends on how you are using that verse to mean; as an example set for believers to follow or resting in Him as our Saviour while resting in Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him as saved.

1 Peter 4:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[SUP]18 [/SUP]And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?[SUP] 19 [/SUP]Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

So obeying the gospel of God is believing in Him that you are saved and by continuing to abide in Him, by believing in Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him since we can only live this reconciled relationship with God through Jesus Christ.

So those who believe in Him, even those who err from the truth and had their faith overthrown are still saved because He still abides in them since they were saved ever since they had come to & had believed in Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:10-26 at the link below shows the exhortation of His disciples to make disciples of other saved believers so that by calling even saved former believers to go before that throne of grace for help to see the lies and the iniquity to lean on Him to depart from them so that they too can be received as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre trib rapture event.

Otherwise, they risk becoming castaways to be received later on after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House testifying to the power of God in salvation even for those that believed in His name.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+timothy+2%3A10-&version=KJV
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,877
4,332
113
#19
But that is not the point of obedience. Our salvation is guaranteed by the finished work of Christ

Therefore we must examine ourselves daily, confess and repent daily, then get up and move on. However, since God gave us His holy Spirit to EMPOWER us for obedience, holiness, and righteousness, we really have no excuse.

Once again, we are mixing up justification with sanctification. Not sure why Christians are unable to see the big picture.

Now we are back on the topic and all of this is true.
Good post.
I think what hurts me and yes I say hurts me is that I see others trying to sanctify themselves.
If I'm perfect, don't sin, do all the right things, dot the I and cross the T.
Then maybe God will love me at best of not punish me at worst.

Walked that way for a long long long time.

If only we could all realise who we are in Jesus, what he has drive for us and how much he loves us.