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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
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#41
The fact is that the Bible is corrupted.
The Lord's Prayer traditionally ends: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." This seems to have been absent from the original Greek writings.

It may be an addition of a godly copyist. But I fail to see how it is a corruption of the point or of the message of the Bible.

Not every change equals corruption. What Christian doctrine is in danger?

---

BTW that sentence is in Didaché, very old first Church writing. So the sentence was used by the first Church, no matter if it was originally in this gospel or not.
 
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tanakh

Senior Member
Dec 1, 2015
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#42
The Dead Sea Scrolls included copies of almost all of the Hebrew Old Testament and are the oldest known examples. They are remarkably similar to much later copies and were written between 200 BC and 100AD. If the Bible was corrupted as you seem to believe this would have been proven by this discovery, but scholars have spent years studying these writings and they are used in the production of new Bible translations, the earliest modern translation which partly relied on the scrolls was the Jerusalem Bible which can be bought in most book stores or on Amazon.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
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#43
Although I still believe in God, I no longer have faith that the Bible is true

Seems you got your precepts confused, you are to have faith in God and believe in the word of God, not vice versa.

And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. Mark 11:22

Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? John 11:40

See the difference?
 
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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
794
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#44
The Dead Sea Scrolls included copies of almost all of the Hebrew Old Testament and are the oldest known examples. They are remarkably similar to much later copies and were written between 200 BC and 100AD. If the Bible was corrupted as you seem to believe this would have been proven by this discovery, but scholars have spent years studying these writings and they are used in the production of new Bible translations, the earliest modern translation which partly relied on the scrolls was the Jerusalem Bible which can be bought in most book stores or on Amazon.
1. You said that DSS are remarkably similar to later copies used in todays Bibles

2. You said that the first modern translation relying on DSS is the Jerusalem Bible and can be bought

---

If its the same, I do not know what difference is there to buy the translation based on DSS? :)
 

loveme1

Senior Member
Oct 30, 2011
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#45
The devices of the enemy...

Anyone who tries to discredit the Bible must have an agenda.. and Anything not for is against GOD..

Christians scholars do not need phd’s.. they need Faith.. GOD will do the rest... GOD is found by those that seek Him..

nothing this world proposes will make me doubt...

We Believe to see, not see to Believe.. we are called Blesed by the Lord.

would be Believers are not Believers.. Faith does not need proof... it means we Believe and Hope for...
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#46
Although I still believe in God, I no longer have faith that the Bible is true or that Jesus is God's son. The fact is that the Bible is corrupted. Even Christan scholars admit this. How can I or anyone believe and apply it when it is not intact? How can we use one corrupted book to confirm another book? How can God create a logical being (humans) and then demand that we suspend our innate logic and believe a corrupted and illogical book as proof of his good will towards his creation and then threaten our afterlife with hell if we don't believe the illogical and corrupted information. Can someone please explain this to me?
I haven't read all the responses but can answer with what I believe and why.

I have believed in God my whole life but had a hard time with Christians, the Bible and churches for various reasons. My upbringing was Buddhist, my culture Cambodian although I was raised in the United States.

My parents attended church to learn English and my two year old self asked mom about God and Jesus. She told me that Jesus was a good person, an angel/good spirit who loved people and help people. She believed in God and praying to God but said some other things but the kid me didn't really get. The main lesson was respect.

My own personal faith journey confirmed the existence of God And lead me to trust Jesus and the Bible as God's message to us about His love.

I have found I don't agree with many Christians about certain ascpects of the Bible (mainly by talking to people or reading threads on this forum) however I learned the one thing tying all God's children together is not perfect knowledge or wisdom where we can say we have all the right answers.

What ties us together is love and having the humility to say we don't know everything, but we have a God who does. We have a God who loves us enough He would die for us. We have the Holy Spirit to reach and lead us. We have the Church to hug us and help us grow.

So if you ever want to talk just pm me. I don't check forum threads as often as I used to.

You are in my prayers.

I have struggled too with the Bible and have found a few answers to my situations. Perhaps I can share those with you. However every year I reread the whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation and it humbles me, because it reveals how much I still need to study and pray about.

May God bless and keep you. May His light shine upon you and His love and old you in His protective arms.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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adelaiderevival.com
#47
It's been clearly established that the Bible has been mistranslated, edited and added to by various translators throughout history. One example: Matthew 6:13: The Lord's Prayer traditionally ends: "For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." This seems to have been absent from the original Greek writings. Of course this is just one example, but there are many. How can I reconcile this book as the word is God when it had been changed?
I think that you have already made up your mind that you do not want to
believe the Word of God and surrender in obedience to the commandments therein.

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt. If you want to read the full and complete
Word of God in the original then get yourself a copy of

THE INTERLINEAR BIBLE - Hebrew Greek English

The Interlinear Bible [One Volume Edition]
(c) 1976,1984
2nd edition (1986) by Jay P. Green, Sr
Sovereign Grace Publishers
Lafayette, Indiana, U.S.A.

This should allay your concerns about the guilt of Bible translators.
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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adelaiderevival.com
#48
For the Word of God is living and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword,
piercing even to the dividing apart of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow,
and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hebrews 4:12

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God,
Ephesians 6:17

15 and that from a babe you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you
wise to salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is God-breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction,
for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be perfected, thoroughly furnished to every good work.
2Timothy 3:
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
1,261
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adelaiderevival.com
#49
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God
must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Hebrews 11:6
 

MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
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#50
Goodness, let's just look at this for what is was.


What actually happened:


1. She starts off by immediately lashing out, and saying the bible is fake, and Christianity is wrong, and it's all proven, and that is that. Done and done.

2. A few posts later she says she only came here to "reaffirm her faith", and WE were unreasonable, so she's leaving, and it's all OUR FAULT.

3. She was making NO attempts to "reaffirm her faith."
She was already decided and firm in her conviction that Christianity was fake. The evidence for this is that she argued ANY point to the contrary, immediately, like her mind was set, and she already knew all the arguments to make.



Conclusion:

A. She clearly just came here to rant and argue, she didn't come to "seek", or "listen".

B. When people didn't back down from her onslaught, she LIED, and made herself a VICTIM, claiming she was here to "reaffirm her faith"... which isn't what she was doing.

C. After making herself the victim, she then BLAMED HER DEPARTURE ON US! Claiming we were so unreasonable we made her leave.

* This was a whole bunch of classic psychological manipulation... angrily lashing out, lying, turning herself into a victim, then running away and blaming everything on the other party.






Maxwell,

I usually agree with you; and you have made a very plausible argument.

I see another (admittedly less likely) scenario.

What may have happened:

She came having had her faith shaken by an attack on God's Word by some outside lecturer.

She had been shown manipulated evidence that the text was corrupted.

She came looking for answers.

She encountered unanimous denial instead of explanation.

She became disgusted and went away.


Conclusion:

When someone raises a concern with any shred of credibility; it is better to patiently answer that concern than to dismiss it.
 
Jul 23, 2017
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#51
most folks have educated their faith away. universities used to be christian. now the devil has been using them to produce folks who dont believe in God or creation no more. in other words they are producing fools who are professing to be wise.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

thats all it is. philosophy and vain deceit. "well why did God do this and that if how when where why not". God chose to do it like things and we are supposed to put our hands to the plow and not look back. we are supposed to roll with the punches and accept reality as it is.

there is a mountain of evidence for the accuracy of the bible, history and archeology.

u came in and said u feared it was pointless to try to reaffirm ur faith by talking to people who claim christianity. BIG MISTAKE! thats ur problem. ur trying to validate christianity thru what we tell u. we are a bunch of nobodys on this forum. we dont know nothing.
if u wanna get ur faith reaffirmed u gotta go to Jesus and stop trying to get it from people and church.

get on ur knees and seek God. go to a quiet place and bow ur head in prayer and stay quiet until the Lord reveals Himself to u.
The Lord will make Himself known to those who seek Him. u cant miss it. its like electricity or warmth.
 
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MarcR

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2015
5,486
183
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#52
most folks have educated their faith away. universities used to be christian. now the devil has been using them to produce folks who dont believe in God or creation no more. in other words they are producing fools who are professing to be wise.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

thats all it is. philosophy and vain deceit. "well why did God do this and that if how when where why not". God chose to do it like things and we are supposed to put our hands to the plow and not look back. we are supposed to roll with the punches and accept reality as it is.

there is a mountain of evidence for the accuracy of the bible, history and archeology.

u came in and said u feared it was pointless to try to reaffirm ur faith by talking to people who claim christianity. BIG MISTAKE! thats ur problem. ur trying to validate christianity thru what we tell u. we are a bunch of nobodys on this forum. we dont know nothing.
if u wanna get ur faith reaffirmed u gotta go to Jesus and stop trying to get it from people and church.

get on ur knees and seek God. go to a quiet place and bow ur head in prayer and stay quiet until the Lord reveals Himself to u.
The Lord will make Himself known to those who seek Him. u cant miss it. its like electricity or warmth.


I tried to give you rep but it wouldn't let me.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,425
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#53
Reality check oh persecuted ones. I asked sincere legitimate questions to which any believer should be able to offer an answer. Not one single "believer" offered explanation to my question, but said I am wrong. Instead, only offer an attack. For people claiming to be believers who answered to this thread, you are the reason that people are leaving the church and think so poorly of Christians. I truly came here to discuss my doubts and hoping to find a way to reconcile and sooth them. Good bye.
Thats the second time she said .. Good bye.

Thats another thing these people must try to do.. Always get the last word in.. In their immature minds if you make the last statement then you win the argument.. Pride needs the last word.. And that is to be delivered in a temper tantrum..

Do they ever progress past the emotional age of a two year old? Talk about showflakes..
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,321
2,412
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#54
Maxwell,

I usually agree with you; and you have made a very plausible argument.

I see another (admittedly less likely) scenario.

What may have happened:

She came having had her faith shaken by an attack on God's Word by some outside lecturer.

She had been shown manipulated evidence that the text was corrupted.

She came looking for answers.

She encountered unanimous denial instead of explanation.

She became disgusted and went away.


Conclusion:

When someone raises a concern with any shred of credibility; it is better to patiently answer that concern than to dismiss it.


MarcR,

I always appreciate your posts, and your wisdom, and your calm and rational demeanor.


I think we have evidence, from her own words, that she had no intention of "reaffirming her faith", and that this was not the intention of her visit to CC. I think we could actually analyze her actions, and her reactions, and find this is very clear.

However, since humans are confusing creatures, and the Bible says we can even deceive ourselves...
I DO agree with your conclusion that we should patiently answer concerns rather than dismiss a person.
I agree completely.
Humans are both confused and confusing... so it's best to answer a person's questions.
I agree with you.

( I think there is a place to end things, and draw some lines, but that's a different discussion.)


Assessment and Action:
There is a difference between ASSESSING A SITUATION, and the COURSE OF ACTION we choose afterward; these are completely separate things. Often we get these confused in counseling.
But first we are to assess a situation, and then we are to choose a course of action.
Often the proper course of action is to act with more compassion than a person "deserves"... because we all need more grace than justice... we all need compassion.

However, before deciding how to act, even if we are to act with compassion, we need to first assess the truth of a situation.

This is why my first post in the thread was to ask the OP more about herself, in order to better assess the situation.
I asked her, frankly, that if she believed in God, but not in Christianity, was she a Muslim.
If she wanted to have a real discussion, she would have answered this question in SOME WAY, and that would have given us MUCH INSIGHT into how to proceed.
(Even if she denied this, she would have had to explain her current beliefs in order to deny, and thus give us the required insight.)

But as soon as I asked this question, instead of responding to it, she immediately posted a thread elsewhere asking for her account to be deleted.


Assessment of the Guilt Trip:
The assessment I made of her, later in the thread, was not to ridicule or drive someone away.
Rather, it was to assess someone who had already left, who came in here ranting and raving, and trying to "guilt trip" everyone for her own rage.
I didn't feel her "guilt trip" was fair to everyone, and so I posted my assessment, to help everyone see what she had done.

I didn't feel the CC members needed to be left awash in a waves of guilt after the departure of an angry person.




MarcR,

I appreciate and respect you a great deal.
That's why I took the time to discuss all of this, and explain my rationale.

God Bless
 
Mar 28, 2016
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#55
Although I still believe in God, I no longer have faith that the Bible is true or that Jesus is God's son. The fact is that the Bible is corrupted. Even Christan scholars admit this. How can I or anyone believe and apply it when it is not intact? How can we use one corrupted book to confirm another book? How can God create a logical being (humans) and then demand that we suspend our innate logic and believe a corrupted and illogical book as proof of his good will towards his creation and then threaten our afterlife with hell if we don't believe the illogical and corrupted information. Can someone please explain this to me?
How could you say you believe god when you cut off the once source of His faith that makes it possible to believe? Which god is it that you do believe and how does he make himself manifest to you?
 

MichaelOwen

Senior Member
Nov 6, 2017
909
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#56
God's word is perfect, and it's unchanging. Malachi 3:6 "I am the Lord; I change not" We know that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS (and is) God.
 
D

Depleted

Guest
#58
Although I still believe in God, I no longer have faith that the Bible is true or that Jesus is God's son. The fact is that the Bible is corrupted. Even Christan scholars admit this. How can I or anyone believe and apply it when it is not intact? How can we use one corrupted book to confirm another book? How can God create a logical being (humans) and then demand that we suspend our innate logic and believe a corrupted and illogical book as proof of his good will towards his creation and then threaten our afterlife with hell if we don't believe the illogical and corrupted information. Can someone please explain this to me?
Learn the difference between "Even Christian scholars" and reality. Your "fact" is wrong, thus your premise is wrong. It seems you're confusing real logic with the myths you've accepted into your head.

You're suffering from GIGO, and think everyone else is too.

And, no. It is unlikely anyone can explain it to you, because you've reinforced yourself to make sure you can only see your fantasy.

How do I know that? Because it is the same fantasy every nonbeliever has when coming in to prove his superior intellect over God's. It's the post of a child who does not want to give up Santa Claus despite the obvious problems with his arguments for Santa. Truth is the only argument you have is, "I don't want to believe, and you can't make me." So why ask?
 

Monnkai

Senior Member
Mar 18, 2014
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#59
Even the Catholic church can't corrupt the bible. Thats why they encourage people to not read the bible because its disrespecting the Father or Priest or some nonsense like that. They offer a Caticisem (I'm sure I spelt that wrong) That is conveniently missing the second commandment, which warns against Idols and graven images. They do that so people will buy there statues of Mary and the Saints. My point is don't trust people, trust God.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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#60
God's word is perfect, and it's unchanging. Malachi 3:6 "I am the Lord; I change not" We know that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word WAS (and is) God.
Well if you know that maybe you might be able to answer these questions....

Since you quote John 1:1 wherein it is written, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." then considering the next verse "The same was in the beginning with God." would that suggest that in beginning was the Spirit and the Spirit was with Word, and the Spirit was Word?
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. John 1:3 So if all things were made by him, then did the Word create the heaven and earth before it is written God said "Let there be light"?