Rev timeline the scroll 4-11

[abcdef]

Rev chs. 4-11, the story of the "little scroll/book", Rev 10:8.



The scroll/book is first seen in Dan 12:4-9, 4 & 9.

It is sealed until the time of the end v 9.

"How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?" v 6,

V 7, 3 1/2 times, until the power of the holy people is scattered 70 ad.

So from the angel in Babylon in Dan 12:7, until 70 ad was the first 3 1/2 times.

So the little scroll, was sealed until after Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 ad.

Once Jerusalem had fallen in 70 ad, and Israel was scattered, then the sealed scroll/book can be opened.

This is the scroll that Jesus opens, the one that was sealed until after the dest of Jeru in 70 ad.

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It has 7 seals, that must be broken in order to read the scroll.

The seals are spiritual events that are shown in heaven to John in 96 ad. (John is in the spirit, through the door).

They are 7 things that must happen before the scroll can be read.

The events are showing the consequences of the rejection of the gospel kingdom by the natural branches and are leading up to the dest of Jerusalem in 70 ad, which is shown in the 6/7th seals.

The holy people must be scattered, and the 3 1/2 times must pass, Dan.12:7, then the book can be opened.

Jesus opens the book only after Jerusalem falls.

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The 7 trumpets follow the seals and are the time of the natural branches after the fall of Jeru. in 70 ad.

The 1/2 hour of silence in heaven, is the time between the fall of Jeru and the next words from heaven, say 96 ad.

So 70 ad, until the giving of the Rev in 96 ad was the silence.

You see, the apostles had been told by Jesus that there would be a "times of the gentiles" Lk21:20-24, but nobody knew how long that would last.

They thought that the fall of Jeru., would be followed very soon by the resurrection, but it was not to be, (1900 yrs).

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The seven trumpets tell about the withdrawing of blessings on the natural branches for rejecting the gospel kingdom.

The 7th trumpet is the rapt/resur, last trumpet, second resurrection, Jesus coming to take possession of the kingdom.

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Then the story ends.

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37 ad, 1-4 Seals, The 4 spirits of the earth turn against Israel for rejecting the gospel kingdom. The gentiles enter.

5th Seal, The martyrs from the Roman beast invasion in 67 bc, until the 1st resurrection (Jesus) are shown.

6th Seal, The dest of Jeru 70 ad.

7th Seal, shows that everything has been completed, the 3 1/2 times, and the scattering has happened.
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70 ad - 96 ad, 1/2 hour
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96 ad 1-4 trumpets, The blessings and protections of God are withdrawn on the natural branches, where ever they are in God's creations, earth, sea, heaven, and fountains. Rev 14:7.

5th trumpet sounds, 1929, Rome, the dragon iron beast nation, comes out of the abyss, back to the living among the nations. The Vatican becomes a nation again, the Roman Empire is reborn. The natural branches are driven back to Israel to restore Jerusalem. The descriptions are the spiritual attributes of the men.

1967, Israel is restored to military control of Jerusalem and the times of the gentiles end, and the second 3 1/2 times end, when Jerusalem is restored. (This also ends the time shown by the statue in Dan 2, the toes/horns end, when Jerusalem is restored.)

6th Trumpet, 9/11/01. This causes the people of the Euphrates River region (Saddam) to lose power (Bush). The loss allows the kings of the east (Iran) to attack Jerusalem restored to Israel.

7th Trumpet, This is the rapt resur, Jesus coming to take possession of the kingdom.

After this the story of the scroll ends, because there will be no more planet except fire.

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[abcdef]

The 7 Seals, 37 ad - 70 ad.

The 7 seals are the beginning of the time of Jacob's trouble. Not the whole planet, just Israel the natural branches.

The time begins when Israel rejects the gospel kingdom and the natural branches are broken off.

The events shown are leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad which is the 6th/7th seal.

The things shown are the relationship between the natural broken branches and God.

The wild branches, and the Israelites who accept the kingdom do not suffer the effects of God's withdrawing of blessings.

Within the Pentecost kingdom, there is peace between God and man, relationship.


1-4 seals

The horsemen are similar to the 4 spirits of the heavens, Zec 6:1-8, 5.

They are associated with Ezek 5:1-17, 16-17, and the dest of Jerusalem v 5.

They are spirits that bring famine, arrows of famine Ezek 5:16, breaking the staff v 16 starving for the bread of God , Rev 6:2.

Rome had no love for Israel and their religion. Caesar worship was enforced. The sword was used often.

Rome was out to wipe Israel out of existence.

The 4th rider who has the 1/4th power, is trying to kill the last 1/4 of Israel.

It might be assumed that each rider kills 1/4th, and that the last rider would be killing the last 1/4 of the natural branches who were cut off.


5th seal

These are souls from the resurrection of Jesus, OT saints. They were killed by Rome, and killed by their own fellow Israelites.

Why else would they be asking for revenge on Jerusalem?


6th seal 70 ad.

The end of Jerusalem is shown.

Lk 23:28-30, This was spoken to the women of Jerusalem, and could only be fulfilled in their, or their children's lifetime.

Rev 6:16, Fulfilled, also the people knew that Jesus was the Son of God, who else could destroy Jerusalem if God was protecting them?


7th seal, 70 ad

The seals broken mean that the requirements to open the scroll have been met and the scroll can be opened.


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(Now this is the good part) What does the scroll say? Now that it is opened?


You have to wait until after the 6th trumpet has blown, to see what the scroll says,

It is the story of the 2 witnesses. Rev 10:1-11, 2, 8, 9-11.

The story of the 2 witnesses Rev 11:1-13, is the same story shown over and over in the Rev. (generally).

It is the story of Israel during the times of the gentiles, until the natural branches are restored to Jerusalem, and to the end of Israel on this planet. (bitter/poison).

The trumpets tell the same story. From 70 ad until the end, rapt/resur, Jesus comes for the kingdom, 7th/last trumpet.

The woman in the wilderness Rev ch 12, is in the wilderness for the same "times of the gentiles" until she (Israel) is restored to Jerusalem.
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But why do we have to wait until after the 6th trumpet is blown, to find out what the scroll says?

Because the meaning of the scroll (2 witnesses), cannot be fully understood until after the 6th trumpet has blown.

Why? 1st, Israel had to be restored to Jerusalem. 2nd, the events of the 6th trumpet had to unfold to a certain recognizable point, That is, certain events could only be recognized after they had happened and then the recognition is not immediate.

So this is set up to allow us to recognize events just before the 7th trumpet.

 

[abcdef]

The 7 trumpets

The 7 trumpets cover the time from approx. 70 ad until Jesus comes for the kingdom.

They are showing the natural branches and their relationship with God.

God withdraws His blessings and protection for the natural branches.

So where the trumpets show the withdrawing of blessings, the 2 witnesses show the same time line, but the natural branches are shown as the 2 witnesses, who are shown mercy by God in the return to Jerusalem after the times of the gentiles is over.

(The woman of Rv 12 is also the same time line, Israel in the wilderness, until she is restored to Jerusalem.)

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1-4 Trumpets

Rev 8:6-12

They are against the natural branches where ever they are in creation, Rv 14:7 earth, seas, heavens, and the fountains of the rivers are the blessings flowing from God's throne that keep the creation alive.

1 Tr. earth. The fire is judgment, the trees and grass are Israel.

2 Tr. sea. Jerusalem is the mountain, swallowed by the seas of the gentile nations and the consequences.

3 Tr. Fountains of the rivers (of blessings from the throne of God). The great star is Jerusalem, falling from favor, and Israel doesn't believe and understand why God destroyed Jerusalem, so they are bitter towards God. The bitterness, makes the blessings of God's Word empty to them, and bitter, the OT Law is without substance, painful, because of Jerusalem.
Why? They can't understand why?

4 Tr. Heavens. Day, night, stars, darkened by one third. God's Word, the OT, the Law and the Prophets (2/3) were not complete.

The text pointed to something missing, Jesus and the Holy Spirit Kingdom. If they had Jesus and the Holy Spirit, then the sun and moon would be complete.

 

[Locutus]

Load of cobblers AB...

 

[Issachar92]

Time and time and half a time is 3½years. Not 2000 years.

 

[abcdef]

Load of cobblers AB...

Brother Locutus.

Now I am surprised. I would think that you would be agreeing with the symbolism being applied to Israel, the broken off branches.

I would believe, that you would at least, agree that the 6th seal is the dest of Jerusalem of 70 ad.

After that you would disagree with the time line, but not with the symbolism described so far. (1-7 seals, 1-4 trumpets)

yes/no?

 

[abcdef]

Time and time and half a time is 3½years. Not 2000 years.

I don't believe that you are correct.

The 3 1/2 times, is not years.

The time of 42 months and 1260 days described are symbolic, in passages that are symbolic.

It never says, "seven years".

The time of the 2 witnesses in sackcloth and the woman of ch 12, are describing the same time period, the times of the gentiles.

Both times end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

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The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2.

The first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until 70 ad. Daniel 12:7.

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad, until Israel is restored to military control of Jerusalem, 1967.

The 2 witnesses and the woman of ch 12, are both describing the same time period, the 70 ad to restoration period.


The 7 times are not seven years.

 

[Locutus]

Brother Locutus.

Now I am surprised. I would think that you would be agreeing with the symbolism being applied to Israel, the broken off branches.

I would believe, that you would at least, agree that the 6th seal is the dest of Jerusalem of 70 ad.

After that you would disagree with the time line, but not with the symbolism described so far. (1-7 seals, 1-4 trumpets)

yes/no?

Brother ABle - I disagree with your interpretation, the seals, bowls and trumpets all describe the destruction of the city of the whore aka 1st century apostate Jerusalem in the dest of jeru...

Look at the statement from Jesus and which John weaves into his visions:

Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
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.
.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

At hand is not stretched from when John wrote until now.

 

[abcdef]

Brother ABle - I disagree with your interpretation, the seals, bowls and trumpets all describe the destruction of the city of the whore aka 1st century apostate Jerusalem in the dest of jeru...

I think that there are somethings described, that could not have happened at the dest of Jeru.


7th trumpet. The 2 witnesses (Israel), come back to life after 3 1/2 days, stand on their feet, are called up to heaven, and seen by their enemies.

The 2 witnesses (Israel) are seen restored to the city after the times.

This did not happen in 70 ad.

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7th vial. God's wrath (withdrawing of blessings) on the natural branches did not end with the dest of Jeru,. it continued for centuries.

And the beast is Rome, did God's wrath end for them also?

It says that God's wrath is filled up, but we know that at this present time, that God has not ended "all" wrath yet.


Can you explain these contradictions?

Look at the statement from Jesus and which John weaves into his visions:

Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

Luke 23:29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
.
.
.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Again, I agree that this describes the dest of Jeru in 70 ad., can you agree with me on this, at least?

I have already been specific about it in the 7 seals, why do you seem presumed to disagree with everything? Even stuff you agree with, if someone else says it?

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

At hand is not stretched from when John wrote until now.

When you have been in heaven for a 100 billion years, then you will think that 2000 yrs is a short time.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I don't believe that you are correct.

The 3 1/2 times, is not years.

The time of 42 months and 1260 days described are symbolic, in passages that are symbolic.

It never says, "seven years".

The time of the 2 witnesses in sackcloth and the woman of ch 12, are describing the same time period, the times of the gentiles.

Both times end when Israel is restored to Jerusalem.

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The 7 times are the same time period as the statue in Dan. 2.

The first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon until 70 ad. Daniel 12:7.

The second 3 1/2 times is from 70 ad, until Israel is restored to military control of Jerusalem, 1967.

The 2 witnesses and the woman of ch 12, are both describing the same time period, the 70 ad to restoration period.


The 7 times are not seven years.

That makes God no better than a pagan god, who can give prophesy, but not make it so specific, people could not deny it was from only a God who is real. He instead gives prophesy which we can make up any interpretation and many of them could be right.

 

[Locutus]

When you have been in heaven for a 100 billion years, then you will think that 2000 yrs is a short time.

So you're saying time statements basically mean nothing for man...

......

Yer losing yer standing as the dest of Jeru Guru...

 

[abcdef]

So you're saying time statements basically mean nothing for man...

......

Not at all.

Yer losing yer standing as the dest of Jeru Guru...

I didn't know I had a standing, ha ha.

I don't care what people think, only what Jesus thinks, and my standing/kneeling with Him.

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When are you going to resolve the questions I gave you to study?

You are saying of my reasoning, that I am not correct,

Then you must know the answer to correct me.

But you don't, Why? Because you don't know the answers? Or are you afraid that you will end up agreeing with me?

As in the 6th seal is the dest of Jerusalem.

 

[abcdef]

That makes God no better than a pagan god, who can give prophesy, but not make it so specific, people could not deny it was from only a God who is real. He instead gives prophesy which we can make up any interpretation and many of them could be right.

Brother EG,

Can you tell me, how long the 7 times is, when it is used in Daniel 4:1-37, 25, 32, 34?

When you can show me how long that is, then we will know how long the 7 times is.

 

[Locutus]

Not at all.



I didn't know I had a standing, ha ha.

I don't care what people think, only what Jesus thinks, and my standing/kneeling with Him.

======

When are you going to resolve the questions I gave you to study?

You are saying of my reasoning, that I am not correct,

Then you must know the answer to correct me.

But you don't, Why? Because you don't know the answers? Or are you afraid that you will end up agreeing with me?

As in the 6th seal is the dest of Jerusalem.

Of course I'm not going to agree with you AB, for one you are in denial about when John stated his visions were "shortly to come to pass":

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

You are also in denial when Jesus claimed he was coming quickly:

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

G5035 tachu takh-oo'

neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb);

shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily.


KJV: lightly, quickly.

While ever you mold the Greek meanings (and that of the English) to fit your theology we will never agree AB.

 

[MarcR]

Let's look at Mat 24:1-34.


Mt 24:1-34
24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Jesus prophesies the destruction of the temple and fall of Jerusalem BEFORE He is asked about end times.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

2 Questions:

when shall these things be?

I believe that Jesus leaves this question unanswered

what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Jesus answers this question beginning in verse 5.

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

History does not display a proliferation of cults claiming a false Christ until the late 19th century but the greatest proliferation of these was in the 20th century: with Jim Jones and Sun Moon among others.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

There have been wars throughout history but since the onset of the 20th century, there have been 2 world wars, and many hundreds of wars for independence, religious wars, wars of conquest, civil wars, and ethnic conflicts. More life and property was destroyed during the 20th century than in all of previous history.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

Since the 20th century there have been more earthquakes and more severe earthquakes than in all of previous history.
There have been severe droughts and crop failures in places where they were previously unknown. There have been epidemics and pandemics of Aids Bird Flu, Swine Flu, Ebola, anthrax, etc. worldwide.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

Since the onset of the 20th century: between Communist persecution and Islamic persecution there have been more believers killed or tortured for their faith than in all of previous history

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

The rise in proliferation of cults in the last 150 years is staggering.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

There has been a massive decline in church attendance throughout most of the world.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

shall be saved. this should read shall have been saved. σωθήσεται is future perfect NOT future.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

There are still unreached people groups but the Gospel has been preached to all nations since the late 1980s.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

The new altar and new temple have been prefabricated and can be erected within 2 weeks once a place is determined to put them.

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Then after the new altar is desecrated

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Rv 19:17-21
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
KJV



29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

stars shall fall from heaven Both the Hebrew kokav, ans the Greek asteres can refer to either lights in the night sky or angels of light. The word 'pesountai', translated shall fall, can also mean shall descend.

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

The fig tree in both Scripture and in extra-biblical Jewish literature is consistently a figure of national Israel.

I believe that this verse refers to the restoration of national Israel whether you date it from the UN mandate of 9/17/1947 or the seating of the first keneset in may of 1948.

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

I believe that this means that at least one person who was alive on 9/17/1947 will live to see Jesus' return.

 

[MarcR]

I believe that the scroll with its 7 seals deals only with time after the restoration of National Israel.

I believe that the first seal was opened shortly after May 1948.

I believe that the first 5 seals are already opened.

I believe that the rapture will occur after the 6th seal is opened but before the 7th is opened; because I can't imagine any other meaning forRv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

 

[abcdef]

Of course I'm not going to agree with you AB, for one you are in denial about when John stated his visions were "shortly to come to pass":

Rev 1:19, "Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The 1st 4 trumpets were the things, shortly coming to pass.

You are also in denial when Jesus claimed he was coming quickly:

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

G5035 tachu takh-oo'

neuter singular of G5036 (as adverb);

shortly, i.e. without delay, soon, or (by surprise) suddenly, or (by implication, of ease) readily.


KJV: lightly, quickly.

While ever you mold the Greek meanings (and that of the English) to fit your theology we will never agree AB.

The passage that you are using is describing is the eternal Jerusalem, the Pentecost kingdom completed as the Bride of Christ, in the presence of Jesus and the Father.

This is when we are living in eternity after death is destroyed and the final judgement.

We will see His face v 4, We don't see His face right now do we? We are after the dest of 70 ad, so how is it that we are seeing His face?

In the eternal, what is 2000 yrs?

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V 12 He is bringing His rewards with Him? Every man according to his deeds? Has this happened yet? Or yet to happen?

What about us? will we be rewarded when He comes? every man according to his deeds?

If this is the dest of Jerusalem, then we will not have to worry about any judgment from God, it already happened in 70 ad right?

I mean, if this already happened, why shouldn't we just sin all over the place? Do what the flesh wants? serve the flesh?

The great judgment already happened according to your understanding, in 70 ad.

And there is no eternal salvation according to you, only eternal salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

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Look, Jesus came (presence) in 67-70 ad, when Jerusalem was destroyed, but it wasn't a resurrection coming, that has yet to happen.

He brought armies to destroy Jerusalem.

But it wasn't a resurrection, and a last judgment.

---

Let me offer this,

The apostles thought that the resurrection would happen soon after Jerusalem fell.

They knew that there would be a times of the gentiles, but it wasn't revealed at that time, how long the times would last.

They ended in 1967, when Jerusalem was restored and the trampling ended.

And this resurrection, the second unto salvation, still has yet to take place.

---

 

[abcdef]

I believe that the scroll with its 7 seals deals only with time after the restoration of National Israel.

I believe that the first seal was opened shortly after May 1948.

I believe that the first 5 seals are already opened.

I believe that the rapture will occur after the 6th seal is opened but before the 7th is opened; because I can't imagine any other meaning forRv 7:9
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
KJV

Brother MarcR,

When Jesus resurrected He brought all the OT souls with Him. The 144000 would be Israel, the multitude that no man can count (MNMCC) would be non Israel Adam, Noah, Issac, etc.

They are seen with Jesus and John in heaven in 96 ad.

This is why they are not called the church, because they are not the church, they are OT saints.

 

[Locutus]

Rev 1:19, "Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"

The 1st 4 trumpets were the things, shortly coming to pass.

Proof - how are you going to establish somethings were shortly to come to pass and others 1970+ years later - no justifucation other than fitting things to your failed theology.

The passage that you are using is describing is the eternal Jerusalem, the Pentecost kingdom completed as the Bride of Christ, in the presence of Jesus and the Father.

This is when we are living in eternity after death is destroyed and the final judgement.

We will see His face v 4, We don't see His face right now do we? We are after the dest of 70 ad, so how is it that we are seeing His face?

In the eternal, what is 2000 yrs?

Meaning less argumentation with no understanding of what John is saying - did you receive the holy spirit? If you did you are taking of the water of life, no waiting till the "end".

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

V 12 He is bringing His rewards with Him? Every man according to his deeds? Has this happened yet? Or yet to happen?

What about us? will we be rewarded when He comes? every man according to his deeds?

No, our rewards after 70 AD are "due" at our death and resurrection into heaven

If this is the dest of Jerusalem, then we will not have to worry about any judgment from God, it already happened in 70 ad right?

Fawlty reasoning - every man appears before the judgement seat of Christ

I mean, if this already happened, why shouldn't we just sin all over the place? Do what the flesh wants? serve the flesh?

The great judgment already happened according to your understanding, in 70 ad.

The "great" judgement was a 1st century event when the transition from the old to the new occurred - your fawlty reasoning that the old testament ended at the cross is in error and shows a total misunderstanding of how the book of revelation is tied to the old covenant.

And there is no eternal salvation according to you, only eternal salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 ad.

Look, Jesus came (presence) in 67-70 ad, when Jerusalem was destroyed, but it wasn't a resurrection coming, that has yet to happen.

He brought armies to destroy Jerusalem.

But it wasn't a resurrection, and a last judgment.

It was both, I posted my response to this before, going around in circles, do expect me to change my position - it ain't gonna happen.

I've never EVER stated "there is no eternal salvation" - you need to pay more attention to what I post if you are going to attempt a refutation.

Let me offer this,

The apostles thought that the resurrection would happen soon after Jerusalem fell.

And it did - they knew it would happen, Paul wrote there was about to be not about to be after 1967 +51 year and counting.

Acts 24:15 (Young's) having hope toward God, which they themselves also wait for, that there is about to be a rising again of the dead, both of righteous and unrighteous;

Paul was not mistaken about the timing - you and all the futurist "theologies" are.

They knew that there would be a times of the gentiles, but it wasn't revealed at that time, how long the times would last.

They ended in 1967, when Jerusalem was restored and the trampling ended.

And this resurrection, the second unto salvation, still has yet to take place.

Nothing in scripture points to 1967 and a dirt based city and "they" knew exactly how long the time of Gentiles would last.

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.

Since they all expected the "end" and the judgement to be at hand in the 1st century they were fully aware of the times by the spirit showing them things to come.

James 5:9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

Those legs must be really tired after 1947 years and counting standing at the door.....

 

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The 5th Trumpet, 1929, The Roman iron beast nation, comes out of the abyss and returns to his place on the seat of the beast, Rome.

Caesar is the Antichrist, and Rome is the iron legs/toes of Daniel 2, the 4th beast of Daniel 7.

The Roman Empire fell in 476 ad approx., This is where the feet divide into 10 toes, and the 10 horns begin.

The number 10 means complete division as shown here. See how the toes/horns NEVER come back together again. If they did, the iron/toes would be united again. The clay (non-Roman nations) shows even further division. They do not come back together again.

But....The iron is complete all the way until the stone strikes. That is, it doesn't stop, and then start again, it keeps going all the way.

So this means that the iron Roman Empire continues even after it is divided. But who could that be? Who was the Caesar after Rome fell? Who took the place of Caesar? Who wasn't actually Caesar, but was the image of Caesar? Who is it that is the focus of Caesar worship from the fall of the Roman Empire until this very day, this very hour? Who is the one that they call holy father? Who is the one they bow down to? Who is the one who sits right now, on the seat of the beast, ROME?

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Yes, you see, the beast is back, out of the pit. His spirit is to kill Israel, with the spirit that killed Able, the spirit that killed John the Baptist, the spirit that killed Jesus and the apostles and many other martyrs. Rome and Caesar.

So this is the spirit that comes out of the abyss. The spirit of the Roman iron dragon beast nation, that has no love for Israel (hate).

1929, look what happened to the natural broken branches and Christians. Hell on earth. No flesh (of Israel) would be saved. (Iran sided with Germany in WW 2)

The attempted genocide of Israel by Roman iron/clay nations reached it's end after WW 2 when Israel was restored to Jerusalem.

The consequences of this horror was the restoration of Jerusalem to Israel. Long thought possible, but impossible, a fulfillment of prophecy, evidence of the God of Mt Sinai. They saw, but rejected, we have not seen, but believe.

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The number 5 is symbolic of division, or separation, the 10 virgins for example, 5 were wise, 5 foolish, they were divided, then separated at the end.

So this is the number for the trumpet of separation, that causes Israel to separate and divide from the gentile nations, at the end of the times of the gentiles to restore Jerusalem.

The creatures described are men and their spiritual attributes. (RCC)


Rev 9:3, Scorpions, the sting of sin is death, sin is their power, their enemy is the gospel (#1), and Israel wild and natural branches.

Their mission is to kill Israel and stop salvation through Jesus, by hiding the saving gospel truth anyway that they can.

V 4, The seal is the gift of the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38. They can only deceive those who do not have the H.S.

V 5, Pain and heart break for those who cannot find the gospel truth.

See the 5 months? That is how much time there is left, prophetically, until the rapt/resur of the 7th trumpet. It means that the things that are set in motion now, are coming to a.....timed.... unavoidable end. The time is set, it cannot be changed, events that are prophecy are coming true.

V 6, The death that they cannot find is the death to the world, and the new birth in Christ. (Baptism, by immersion, if you can accept it.)

V 7, Horses...power, crowns...authority, faces....they are men (what you see).

V 8, Long hair....attachment to the spiritual realm (Sampson), teeth....mouth words of Satan.

V 9, breastplates....cover the heart (hard hearted towards Israel and the gospel), loud noise.....hiding the saving gospel preaching with confusion and lies (popular lies).

v 10, Isaiah 9:15, look it up.

V 11, Their king is a spirit, a spirit of no love for God, Israel, and the gospel.

He is the ancient dragon, the dragon with 7 heads and 10 horns, the iron Roman Empire reborn, coming out of the abyss.

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But then, he has been here all the time, he just hasn't been able to go home and sit on the throne of the beast, the seat of the beast, until 1929. There he sat down on his image Roman Empire throne again, same place as before.....exactly the same spot. EXACTLY THE SAME SPOT, THE EXACTLY THE SAME PLACE, the Roman beast, comes out of the abyss.

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So how does the Roman iron dragon beast image nation kill Israel?

The Bishop of Rome (BoR) has no military power, he is just the image, of the Roman Empire.

He deceives the kings of the east, into crossing the Euphrates, and attacking Jerusalem, restored to Israel.