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Thread: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

  1. #21
    Senior Member Johnny_B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Quote Originally Posted by UnderGrace View Post
    While I do not agree with Jack the Ripper part, Calvin was deeply influenced by the writing of Augustine and his writings on predestination.

    I find it baffling that anyone would believe that Calvin would have a sound understanding of scripture, a man complicit in the death of another man, on public record stating it is just to put a heretic to death.
    Do you not know or did you or did you leave it out to demonize the man? The order was a state order and Calvin warned him not to come to Geneva because he would have to hold up the state issued warrant to burn him at the stake and Servetus still came to Geneva. Here's how it goes with people that want to demonize Calvin, if he would not have served the warrent, then those that want to demonize him would say that he was unrighteous because the state had a warrant for Servetus and Calvin did not brun him at the stake because they were friends, making him a unrighteous because he did not burn Servetus at the stake for heresy. So the man cannot win with people that persecute Calvin.

    In those time there were many people put to death for herecy, those that held to
    semipelagianism were put to death as Palagium was. The sad part is there are no Arminians anymore they are Pelagians and semipelegians. Take the test, read what Pelagians and semipelagians believe and see if you believe what they taught. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipelagianism

    It all ways makes mt laugh when people say that Calvin was influanced by Augstine, but they never say that Augstine was influanced by the writings of Paul. I am no Calvinist, I do not believe in baby baptism, or that Israel will neever be a state again. It amazes me to hear Christian call the state of Israel Palistine because of their Calvinistic doctrine, I do not believe that the Church is Israel when it comes to the land. Calvin believe lots of things that he believe because of his limited information, Israel was a swamp land in his days. It amazes me that people can believe in God's soveriegnty for salvation, but cannot believe that in God's soverignty He did not restore the land of Israel to the Jewish people.
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    John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    I Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

    Born in the Spirit & word, granted by the Father. EE-TEOW




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    Senior Member preacher4truth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    Do you not know or did you or did you leave it out to demonize the man? The order was a state order and Calvin warned him not to come to Geneva because he would have to hold up the state issued warrant to burn him at the stake and Servetus still came to Geneva...

    Exactly, but those of her ilk don't practice critical thinking and won't be bothered with the truth and facts of the matter.
    Laish and SovereignGrace like this.
    People are offended that God is God.

    Oh, my brethren! bold-hearted men are always called mean-spirited by cowards. - Charles Spurgeon

    Open Theism and Molinism, two inept theological camps, do err in this sense; God doesn't have an R&D department, He does all things perfectly.

    A god who can be fashioned by our own thoughts is no more a god than an image produced by our own hands. - Charles Spurgeon

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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    The Lord Jesus tells us. Proud, carnal man doesn't want to hear.

    Matthew 5:3 “Those who know there is nothing good in themselves are happy, because the holy nation of heaven is theirs. (NLV)

    Matthew 5:3
    “·They are blessed who ·realize their spiritual poverty,
    for the kingdom of heaven ·belongs to them [is theirs]. (EXB)


    Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    That should help you to realize your spiritual poverty...

    John 15:5
    I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.


    I don't think you can just read scripture and understand. I think the Holy Spirit has to reveal who the Lord Jesus Christ is and what He does for us.

    Before this happens we are stuck thinking that God wouldn't have commanded it if He didn't think we could do it. Because that would just be mean to tell someone to do something that you know they can't do.
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    (...and Moses writings as well, oh, and David's as well, two OT "Calvinist's.")
    Neither Moses nor David were Calvinists.

    If they didn't hate the truth of Scripture
    False straw man argument.

    they wouldn't hate the man.
    False straw man argument. We (at least I) do not hate the man. I do intensly dislike the doctrines he taught.

    If he taught their decisional free will heresy the truth that he didn't actually murder would be defended.
    The fact that God gave man free will is not heresy except to Calvinists.

    And even if Calvin did not "pull the trigger" as it were, he was complicit in the murder of Servetus.

    But they've re-written the narrative
    Not true.

    and their gospel differs from Scripture.
    It differs from Calvinism, but it does not differ from Scripture.

    Can't have God choosing people without their input on what is fair.
    God chooses people when they decide to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    Exactly, but those of her ilk
    Intentional pejorative jab.

    don't practice critical thinking
    A lie.

    and won't be bothered with the truth and facts of the matter.
    Another lie.

    While it's quite clear that you are a Calvinist and do not agree with those who believe people can choose, surely you can find other ways to defend your beliefs without continually constructing straw man arguments and constant insults.

    Well... maybe you can't.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Critical thinking ......Too funny if you only knew who you were talking too.....LOL

    Always with the personal attacks based on your false assumptions ....love it....... so entertaining and revealing


    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    Exactly, but those of her ilk don't practice critical thinking and won't be bothered with the truth and facts of the matter.
    Nehemiah6 likes this.
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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    Senior Member Johnny_B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Quote Originally Posted by preacher4truth View Post
    Exactly, but those of her ilk don't practice critical thinking and won't be bothered with the truth and facts of the matter.
    Whenever I hear or read people bashing Calvin these verses comes to mind, Luke 6:22 “Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you, and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man’s sake.”

    John 15:18-19 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”

    I do not understand why people get so
    angry with Calvin when all he is doing is promoting God over man in our salvation, so that we can see that the Lord loves those that He saves, because of His great love towards those that He has set His love on to save. I could understand it if he was promoting man over God in our salvation and making man the one that is Lord in our salvation, but no he teaches that Jesus is Lord in our salvation. To the point of submitting to the Father and dying for those that the Father chose by His foreknowledge to save before the foundations of the world.

    Would think that Calvin teaches that the devil triumphed over Jesus in the crucifixion, which would be total heresy and going against Colossians 2:13-15

    “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.”
    John 6:63, 65 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life....65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

    I Corinthians 4:7 "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?"

    Born in the Spirit & word, granted by the Father. EE-TEOW




  7. #27
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Well I would suggest reading some first hand sources on the matter.

    Let me share this much, in 1536 Calvin called the RCC church leaders "most savage butchers" in his writings but then with his complicity in Servetus death and he was complicit, he wrote his own book Defensio 1554, where he outlined his ideas of "death to heretics" and from there the people took up his call.

    And actually Geneva's own city laws called for banishment for blasphemy not death, the actual court documents bear witness to Calvin's involvement to move beyond blasphemy to heresy whereby Servetus could be executed.

    Do you read Augustine or Paul?

    No excuse for Calvin either, he had the scriptures.




    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    Do you not know or did you or did you leave it out to demonize the man? The order was a state order and Calvin warned him not to come to Geneva because he would have to hold up the state issued warrant to burn him at the stake and Servetus still came to Geneva. Here's how it goes with people that want to demonize Calvin, if he would not have served the warrent, then those that want to demonize him would say that he was unrighteous because the state had a warrant for Servetus and Calvin did not brun him at the stake because they were friends, making him a unrighteous because he did not burn Servetus at the stake for heresy. So the man cannot win with people that persecute Calvin.

    In those time there were many people put to death for herecy, those that held to
    semipelagianism were put to death as Palagium was. The sad part is there are no Arminians anymore they are Pelagians and semipelegians. Take the test, read what Pelagians and semipelagians believe and see if you believe what they taught. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipelagianism

    It all ways makes mt laugh when people say that Calvin was influanced by Augstine, but they never say that Augstine was influanced by the writings of Paul. I am no Calvinist, I do not believe in baby baptism, or that Israel will neever be a state again. It amazes me to hear Christian call the state of Israel Palistine because of their Calvinistic doctrine, I do not believe that the Church is Israel when it comes to the land. Calvin believe lots of things that he believe because of his limited information, Israel was a swamp land in his days. It amazes me that people can believe in God's soveriegnty for salvation, but cannot believe that in God's soverignty He did not restore the land of Israel to the Jewish people.
    Last edited by UnderGrace; December 7th, 2017 at 05:15 PM.
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    Whenever I hear or read people bashing Calvin these verses comes to mind, Luke 6:22 “Blessed are you when men hate you, and when they exclude you, and revile you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of Man’s sake.”

    John 15:18-19 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.”

    What verses come to your mind when you see people bashing and insulting people who disagree with Calvinism?

    I do not understand why people get so
    angry with Calvin when all he is doing is promoting God over man in our salvation, so that we can see that the Lord loves those that He saves, because of His great love towards those that He has set His love on to save. I could understand it if he was promoting man over God in our salvation and making man the one that is Lord in our salvation, but no he teaches that Jesus is Lord in our salvation. To the point of submitting to the Father and dying for those that the Father chose by His foreknowledge to save before the foundations of the world.

    Your Calvinist view is not true. Jesus Christ died for anyone who will choose to believe on him, and anyone has the ability to freely choose to do so.

    Would think that Calvin teaches that the devil triumphed over Jesus in the crucifixion, which would be total heresy and going against Colossians 2:13-15
    What Calvin taught was that God only chose to save some people, purposely leaving the rest to rot in hell. Calvinism vilifies God.

    “And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.”
    God makes people alive together with him whenever anyone makes the decision to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
    UnderGrace likes this.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    'Semipelagian thought teaches that the latter half – growing in faith – is the work of God, while the beginning of faith is an act of free will, with grace supervening only later... The term "semipelagianism", a 16th-century coinage, has been used as an accusation in theological disputes over salvation, divine grace and free will.'

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipelagianism

    Since this link was posted above, let's deal with Semipelagianism. How can the "beginning of faith be an act of free will" when the Bible clearly teaches two things:

    1. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God (Rom 10:17). Here "the Word of God" is the Gospel, and when the Gospel -- which is the POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION -- is preached, it generates faith in the sinner. Calvinists reject this and teach that God gives the "gift" of faith to the "elect" so the non-elect are shut out from believing.

    8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

    9
    That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


    10
    For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


    11
    For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


    12
    For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.


    13
    For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.


    14
    How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?


    15
    And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!


    16
    But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


    17
    So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Rom 1:16,17)

    2. However, whenever the Gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit uses the Gospel to convict sinners that they are guilty before God, and to convince them that Christ is indeed the Son of God and the Lamb of God who died for their sins according to the Scriptures, and rose again for their justification according to the Scripture.

    For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. (1 Thess 1:5).

    1. So when Calvinists insult other Christians who disagree with them by applying the term "Semipelagian" to them, they are making a false accusation, which is actually "bearing false witness" against other Christians.

    2. What is worse is that Calvinists are DENYING the power of the Gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit in convicting and convicting those who hear the Gospel.
    Last edited by Nehemiah6; December 7th, 2017 at 05:27 PM.
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  10. #30
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Oh really, again I deal in facts, Geneva had no laws under which to try and convict Servetus to death, he had committed no civil crime under the Geneva Civil Code. It was their star witness Calvin that was able to persuade the court that he had committed heresy.

    In his letter to William Farel, February 13, 1546. "If he (Servetus) comes (to Geneva), I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."

    https://history.hanover.edu/project.php

    You are adding emotion to this by saying I demonizing him, I wonder why? Isn't it the Calvinists and Lordship salvationists that insistent on evidence of conversion, how does one find that evidence in an historical figure?



    The order was a state order and Calvin warned him not to come to Geneva because he would have to hold up the state issued warrant to burn him at the stake and Servetus still came to Geneva.



    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_B View Post
    Do you not know or did you or did you leave it out to demonize the man? The order was a state order and Calvin warned him not to come to Geneva because he would have to hold up the state issued warrant to burn him at the stake and Servetus still came to Geneva. Here's how it goes with people that want to demonize Calvin, if he would not have served the warrent, then those that want to demonize him would say that he was unrighteous because the state had a warrant for Servetus and Calvin did not brun him at the stake because they were friends, making him a unrighteous because he did not burn Servetus at the stake for heresy. So the man cannot win with people that persecute Calvin.

    In those time there were many people put to death for herecy, those that held to
    semipelagianism were put to death as Palagium was. The sad part is there are no Arminians anymore they are Pelagians and semipelegians. Take the test, read what Pelagians and semipelagians believe and see if you believe what they taught. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semipelagianism

    It all ways makes mt laugh when people say that Calvin was influanced by Augstine, but they never say that Augstine was influanced by the writings of Paul. I am no Calvinist, I do not believe in baby baptism, or that Israel will neever be a state again. It amazes me to hear Christian call the state of Israel Palistine because of their Calvinistic doctrine, I do not believe that the Church is Israel when it comes to the land. Calvin believe lots of things that he believe because of his limited information, Israel was a swamp land in his days. It amazes me that people can believe in God's soveriegnty for salvation, but cannot believe that in God's soverignty He did not restore the land of Israel to the Jewish people.
    MarcR and Magenta like this.
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

  11. #31
    Senior Member sparkman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Servetus was an idolater as he worshiped the wrong god..there's also some indication he was engaging in homosexuality.

    By the standards of the time, Geneva was run by a version of God's law and the things he was doing were crimes. He knew they were crimes, and continued to engage in them. Therefore he incurred civil punishment.

    Our society is not Christian and observes different parameters of acceptable and unacceptable behavior.

    Besides this, Servetus wanted to be martyred. He knew he shouldn't have been in Geneva and he was attending a sermon by Calvin at the time he was arrested. He could have completely bypassed the city but he wanted to be a martyr so that's why he did it.

    And Calvin didn't make the final decision anyways.

    Arminians distort history to make these sorts of claims for propaganda purposes
    Attached Images Attached Images


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    Senior Member Nehemiah6's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    Quote Originally Posted by sparkman View Post
    Servetus was an idolater as he worshiped the wrong god..there's also some indication he was engaging in homosexuality.
    That is simply character assassination.

    1. "On only two counts, significantly, was Servetus condemned -- namely, anti-Trinitarianism and anti-paedobaptism." Roland H. Bainton, Hunted Heretic (The Beacon Press, 1953), p. 207.[This included denying that Jesus is the eternal Son of God]https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/...l-servetus.htm.

    In any event neither Christ nor His apostles taught that heretics were to be burned at the stake. So that makes Calvin a murderer.
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  13. #33
    Senior Member UnderGrace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Total Depravity Scripture List, Travis Carden

    The historical and legal record is very clear of what happened in Geneva. There is an obvious bias here that even reality cannot seem to break.



    Quote Originally Posted by Nehemiah6 View Post
    That is simply character assassination.

    1. "On only two counts, significantly, was Servetus condemned -- namely, anti-Trinitarianism and anti-paedobaptism." Roland H. Bainton, Hunted Heretic (The Beacon Press, 1953), p. 207.[This included denying that Jesus is the eternal Son of God]https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/...l-servetus.htm.

    In any event neither Christ nor His apostles taught that heretics were to be burned at the stake. So that makes Calvin a murderer.
    For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
    Romans 6:14

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