Colossians 2.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
I understand the scripture, maybe you didn't understand my intention of posting those, I'm not one who thinks there are 613 laws for man to keep.
There never was. This number and this preaching regarding it is just another in a long line of man made doctrines Jesus warned about.

Hmm all 613 of them, well then so much for the lame, the blind, the defected person a hunchback or dwarf, person with a broken hand or foot, they are all cannot aproached the offering in the synagogue/temple. a person who is born deformed is excluded yea ok...
I may have misunderstood your post, but you seemed to be mocking the Old Testament Writings and you didn't seem to indicate you understood that this law was specifically written for the High Priest.

If I got your intent wrong, forgive me.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
Yup even with crushed testicles, that one is odd why such detail as that.
It took courage, steadfastness and strong faith do stand up to the persecution and twisting of God's Word by the Mainstream Church of His time.

It took a lot of balls to do what Jesus did. I understand this perfectly. :)
 
Sep 6, 2017
1,331
13
0
There never was. This number and this preaching regarding it is just another in a long line of man made doctrines Jesus warned about.



I may have misunderstood your post, but you seemed to be mocking the Old Testament Writings and you didn't seem to indicate you understood that this law was specifically written for the High Priest.

If I got your intent wrong, forgive me.
It quite ok, but no I wasn't mocking the verses I was posting to another poster who said that all the 613 laws are still in place, basically asking him if that law is still valid. posting the verses had nothing to do with rather it was the high priest or not.

do you think that law is still valid today?
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
It quite ok, but no I wasn't mocking the verses I was posting to another poster who said that all the 613 laws are still in place, basically asking him if that law is still valid. posting the verses had nothing to do with rather it was the high priest or not.

do you think that law is still valid today?
I can only go by what Jesus says.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I know the earth is still here, and that Jesus hasn't come back yet, so "ALL" has not been fulfilled.

So according to Him, the Law is still here. So we are still bound to "Love the Lord with all our might" And it is still a sin to create images of God in the likeness of man, and so one and so forth.

So given that I trust Jesus and His Words, I follow this teaching.
 
Sep 6, 2017
1,331
13
0
I can only go by what Jesus says.

Matt. 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I know the earth is still here, and that Jesus hasn't come back yet, so "ALL" has not been fulfilled.

So according to Him, the Law is still here. So we are still bound to "Love the Lord with all our might" And it is still a sin to create images of God in the likeness of man, and so one and so forth.

So given that I trust Jesus and His Words, I follow this teaching.
alrighty then, I'm heading to where they sell slaves/servants and buying one for sure. Not one law shall pass like you said.

inslaving people is still a honorable thing to do, as per law of the OT. Exodus 21:2
 
Last edited:

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
alrighty then, I'm heading to where they sell slaves/servants and buying one for sure. Not one law shall pass like you said.

inslaving people is still a honorable thing to do, as per law of the OT. Exodus 21:7,
You need to take your judgment of the Laws Jesus had written, before becoming a man, up with Him. I am simply His servant, purchased by His Blood, I am not my own. I am truly a slave of Christ, free from the death and deception rebelling against God's Word brought me.

If you don't believe in this Jesus, that is your choice. I am not Holy enough to judge God or His Words.
 
Sep 6, 2017
1,331
13
0
You need to take your judgment of the Laws Jesus had written, before becoming a man, up with Him. I am simply His servant, purchased by His Blood, I am not my own. I am truly a slave of Christ, free from the death and deception rebelling against God's Word brought me.

If you don't believe in this Jesus, that is your choice. I am not Holy enough to judge God or His Words.
But you think you are holy enough to judge me and excuse me of not believing in Jesus?

You run from my question, for you don't even know how to answer it.

you surely do not know me,
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
But you think you are holy enough to judge me and excuse me of not believing in Jesus?

You run from my question, for you don't even know how to answer it.

you surely do not know me,
I think people should be held accountable for what they say.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
One day we all will be. Not by man but by Jesus himself.
The Judgment has already been made Billy.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These were compassionate people Billy, they had children and grandchildren, and helped people in Jesus name. But they missed one important part of Salvation. And that is honor and respect for their Creator. As Paul said:

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The judgment has been made and examples have been given.
 
Sep 6, 2017
1,331
13
0
The Judgment has already been made Billy.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These were compassionate people Billy, they had children and grandchildren, and helped people in Jesus name. But they missed one important part of Salvation. And that is honor and respect for their Creator. As Paul said:

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The judgment has been made and examples have been given.
And who are the people you say judgement has been made? and posted scripture of it.

step wisely swing true.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,625
13,119
113
Bringing myself under death is not, as you preach, humbling my self to God and His Instructions, rather, refusing the humble myself to God and His instructions.


so in 2 Corinthians 3, that Grandpa showed us, the scripture calls something "
the ministration of death written on tablets of stone." it says that it came with glory, so that Moses' face shone with glory. it is called "the letter" that kills, and it is called a covenant, and it is called transitory - replaced with a new covenant

what is that ministration of death, that transitory covenant, that letter which kills?

is the Spirit writing through Paul talking about mere "
human traditions" added by scribes?
no - it says it came with glory through Moses.

is this a case where a person should unjustifiably break up the Torah into separate laws again?
even if one were to do this ((though they cannot))- it is the one
engraved on tablets of stone that the Spirit of God writes is a "ministration of death"

hmm what Law came with glory through Moses and was engraved on tablets of stone?

as you say -- it would not be obedient to God to bring yourself under this death, if He through His blood has made you free from it.


 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,879
4,332
113
The Judgment has already been made Billy.

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These were compassionate people Billy, they had children and grandchildren, and helped people in Jesus name. But they missed one important part of Salvation. And that is honor and respect for their Creator. As Paul said:

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

The judgment has been made and examples have been given.
Were they compassionate?
Given the verses you have quoted to me it seems not.
Workers of iniquity.
Nothing compassionate about that.

They never knew Jesus, works done in the name of Jesus are works done in compassion.
Were not such people in it for self glory?

Yes judgement has already been made even Jesus said "It's finished"

You said to which I responded

I think people should be held accountable for what they say.
And I said

One day we all will be. Not by man but by Jesus himself.
So I can't see or understand why you quoted Matthew

Maybe I should have been clearer.

I had in mind

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

For that we will be accountable to Jesus.
And that includes what we say.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,625
13,119
113
as far as i can tell, and i admit that i don't go to 15,000 churches per week or listen to 100,000 preachers, so i don't have a statistically sound way of ascertaining, but as far as i can tell, "mainstream" teaching in what is called the Christian churches is that salvation is not *quite* by grace through faith, but that it's faith + 'something'

mainstream teaching seems to me to be adding some form of law, some form of ceremony, some form of "
do not" and "do" in order to be saved and/or to maintain that salvation. you aren't saved unless you do these works. you are no longer saved if you don't do these works. you were never saved in the first place unless you do these works. that's 'mainstream' in my view. wasn't that also mainstream in the time Colossians was written? yes - 'be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses' ((Acts 15:5)) they said. believing Jews said this. *add these works* or they aren't saved.

observe a day or a set of dietary laws, for example, in one fashion or another. "
tithe" as they call it, though it's not the Levitical tithe. maintain a certain outward behavior in some way, keep some regular habit, say some set of words out loud, walk to an altar and *do* something. go through a certain ceremony. go through that ceremony weekly, either on a saturday or a sunday. not saved if you don't, or if you do it on the wrong day.

it's been bugging me throughout this thread, Studyman, how you keep referring to '
mainstream' as though you're the outlier, but i rather think you're pressing us towards what i actually think is something 'mainstream'


[HR][/HR][HR][/HR]


one central mistake in this thread, as i see it, is thinking the Law is separable into ceremony, sacrifice, moral and priestly bits, and that those are all distinct, individual laws, any one of which can be taken away. but the Law given through Moses to Israel is a covenant, and just like any contract, no matter how many clauses it has, it is all one contract. you break any part of the contract, you break it all.
the scripture calls even the history of Abraham's life "
the Law" ((Galatians 4)) - and Jesus calls the Psalms "the Law" ((John 10:34-35)) -- interestingly, He calls it there "your Law" while speaking to the Jews in the temple courts.
i know of nowhere in any of the Bible that "
the Law" of Moses is ever spoken of in bits and pieces; only in whole.

"
mainstream" teaching today - and arguably of Christ's day, given how He chided them for ignoring what parts of it say while keeping fastidiously other parts - is that the Law is bits and pieces you can pick from somehow. "oh, only some of it was taken away at the Cross, only some of it was nailed" -- what is "mainstream" is to put yourself, and others - or laughably, often only others, not yourself, thinking to judge and not be judged - under some segment of the Law but not under all of it, of course.

i recognize that you, for respect of what was given by God, have difficulty believing it could be found to lack, so you are trying to convince yourself and us that it was only some totally inconsequential and non-binding opinions of deluded scribes that He crucified that day.
but scripture doesn't support this.
what was nailed up on that piece of wood is a Covenant - a broken contract, which He replaced that day with a new one, better, able to save: and it wasn't just bits of a contract but not all of it; He didn't "
amend" the covenant - He made a new covenant with His own blood and body.

sure and there are things in the new contract that were also in the old:
"love your neighbor" is the immutable Law of God, and the old covenant with Israel had this language, just as the new covenant in Christ says "love one another"


 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113
=posthuman;3384838]

so in 2 Corinthians 3, that Grandpa showed us, the scripture calls something "
the ministration of death written on tablets of stone." it says that it came with glory, so that Moses' face shone with glory. it is called "the letter" that kills, and it is called a covenant, and it is called transitory - replaced with a new covenant


You just keep going on to the next and to the next as though if you keep looking, you might find scriptures to justify your preaching on Col. 2. Nothing in this scripture make God's Commandments "Vain deceit" Rudiments of the World, or tradition of men.

You say Jesus replaced His own Laws, that He created for man before coming to earth, with different laws or no laws with the New Covenant. But the God that created HIS New Covenant teaches no such thing.

Jer. 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Do you believe Jesus knew of this Covenant when He said "If you want to inherit eternal life, keep the Commandments"

how about when He said this:

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Are you really preaching these people didn't know God's Commandments?

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

where is the Levitical Priesthood that was given by God through Moses for the remission of sins? We are in the New Covenant, Jesus is the High Priest now. No longer is man Justified by "works or Deeds of the Law", Jesus Himself will forgive our iniquity in the New Covenant.

There is no, zero, mention that the New covenant has anything to do with the re-defining of sin, or the abolition of God's Instruction.

Man's preaching that Jesus nailed God's Laws to the Cross, or that His Commandments are re-placed by a "New Covenant" is proven false by the very God who created the New covenant in the first place.

Ex. 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I (Jesus) will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

If Jesus nailed God's Commandments to the Cross in Col. 2, like you preach, then why is God promising to write them on our heart?

Why would God write Laws that are "Against us" and "Contrary to us" on our hearts? Why would God write "rudiments of the World" and "Vain deceit" that men preach are God's Laws which Jesus nailed to the Cross, on our hearts.

If Jesus abolished the Laws of God because He "fulfilled" them all as GP preaches, then why does God tell us He will write them on our hearts?

It is mainstream preachers who preach the religious tradition that the New Covenant abolishes the Commandments of God. No where does the Bible teach that. It teaches just the opposite. Just because men ignore scripture, doesn't make them void.

The New Covenant has to do with 2 things, How God's Laws are administered, and how sins are forgiven. You have zero scriptural evidence to make your case that the New Covenant replaced God's Commandments.

The New Covenant was the changing of the Priesthood. No more Levitical Priesthood "Works of the Law" for remission of sins, No more Levites to read us the Law. Now we all have His Word. We all can choose to follow the Laws written on our hearts "Life" or we can choose to continue to follow our Flesh, "Death" Same choice as Eve and Cain the rest of mankind.

Are you saying you don't know God's Commandments?

Just like Jesus said before He came to earth as a man.

Duet 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I (Jesus) have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.


what is that ministration of death, that transitory covenant, that letter which kills?
Paul answers your question, if you can accept it.

Rom. 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Not against us as you preach.

13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. (That means NO PH, the "Good" works of God were not meant to destroy us forever)

But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

This is why the penalty for disobeying God is so steep, because sin, transgressing God's Commandments by your own religious traditions, creating images of God after the likeness of man, creating your own High Days, disrespecting God, all this stuff is EXCEEDINGLY wicked. Very, very bad.

So bad, that God had to send His Own Son to be tortured and killed so you and I could be forgiven for being such a disrespectful, rebellious, prideful, selfish, hateful person, which is why we didn't respect God in the first place.

So do you really think God, who loved us enough to have His own Son killed for us, is going to stand for you and I doing the exact same things we did before?

There is only one place where this is taught in the Bible, and that is what the Serpent told Eve.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:" (if you disobey God)


Rom. 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom. 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin,(Transgress God's Commandments) that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Why would I want to reject God's Sabbaths or Commandments given all Jesus did to wipe my slate clean? Why would I even want to engage with or partake with the creation of images of God after the likeness of anything on earth, given how Angry it made God the first time? If I am "picking up my Cross" and following Jesus, how in the world can I practice such behavior?

Paul answers that as well.

Rom. 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Could this be like rejecting God's instructions and creating their own? How about preaching that God created Laws impossible to follow and then killed tens of thousands of people who couldn't keep them. So Jesus had to come and set Him straight, nail His awful, burdensome, "vain Deceit" Commandments to the Cross that He created that were against us, Spoiling God, making a show of God openly and triumphing over God.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Once again, Jesus freed me from the Death my natural rebellion caused me. He didn't nail His Instructions to the Cross, He wrote them on my heart.

2 Cor. 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord,(of the Bible) the vail shall be taken away.


 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
11,703
6,306
113
so, you start at Romans 11, then work your way back to Romans 1. do you normally read letters backward??
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,625
13,119
113
so, you start at Romans 11, then work your way back to Romans 1. do you normally read letters backward??

if a person were going to do so, why start in the middle?
there's a 14th chapter as well, for example.

here's an example verse from it:

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

(Romans 14:5)​

hmm why doesn't that say
"let every man be fully persuaded to esteem one day above another" ?
seems like if this was written according to human tradition, that's def. what it would say.
but it's not.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
516
113

if a person were going to do so, why start in the middle?
there's a 14th chapter as well, for example.

here's an example verse from it:
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

(Romans 14:5)​

hmm why doesn't that say
"let every man be fully persuaded to esteem one day above another" ?
seems like if this was written according to human tradition, that's def. what it would say.
but it's not.
It's speaking about the "Weak in faith". What difference does it make to God's Truth or Word what one man thinks, or what another man thinks.

Let each man be convinced in His own mind. If a man is a thief, you can't make him stop this, he must be convinced it is wrong in his own mind.

You can't make a man honor God with obedience, he must be convinced in his own heart, and mind. You can't make a man stop honoring the Birth of Mithras, or Venus. He must be convinced in his heart and mind.

We are to love God with our heart, and every man must be convinced in their own mind, you can't force them to do it.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,625
13,119
113
It's speaking about the "Weak in faith". What difference does it make to God's Truth or Word what one man thinks, or what another man thinks.

Let each man be convinced in His own mind. If a man is a thief, you can't make him stop this, he must be convinced it is wrong in his own mind.
lol

where does Paul say "let the man weak in faith decide in his own heart whether he should commit adultery or murder or blasphemy or not"

???


didn't he write: anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer ((Ephesians 4:28)) ?
where's the "weak in faith" clause in Ephesians 4?



that's a reeeeeaaaaallll stretch you're trying here, dude, to make scripture fit your very 'mainstream' interpretation of it.