Colossians 2.

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Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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Hi Studyman, thanks for the thread. I am curious if you interpret this as I do~

"weak in the faith"...doesn't that simply mean those who are unlearned of scripture?
Sorry I missed this, yes I believe the "weak in faith" are those who haven't "studied to show themselves approved" yet. If they study in "Faith" (obedience) God will reveal Himself to them as He promised.

Let God have His perfect work and let each man be convinced in their own minds whether to listen to man or to God.
 

BillG

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Sorry I missed this, yes I believe the "weak in faith" are those who haven't "studied to show themselves approved" yet. If they study in "Faith" (obedience) God will reveal Himself to them as He promised.

Let God have His perfect work and let each man be convinced in their own minds whether to listen to man or to God.
Please post bible verses that state the weak in faith are those who haven't studied to show themselves approved. I know there are some in Romans concerning the weaker brother, but cannot see how that relates to your quote above.

Faith is not obedience.
God revealed himself in and through Jesus.


Jesus said the holy spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being unbelief - no faith in Jesus.
He did not say convict the world of disobedience.
Jesus died for the world and it's disobedience aka sin.


Obedience follows as a result of faith.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Please post bible verses that state the weak in faith are those who haven't studied to show themselves approved. I know there are some in Romans concerning the weaker brother, but cannot see how that relates to your quote above.

Faith is not obedience.
God revealed himself in and through Jesus.


Jesus said the holy spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being unbelief - no faith in Jesus.
He did not say convict the world of disobedience.
Jesus died for the world and it's disobedience aka sin.


Obedience follows as a result of faith.
Faith is more than knowing, One can know the Bible inside and out. And hae no faith. Isreal proved this
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Faith is more than knowing, One can know the Bible inside and out. And hae no faith. Isreal proved this
Funny really. Ardent atheists study the Bible in order to disprove it.
So they are obedient to their cause. Their faith as such.
Yet they have no faith in God.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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Please post bible verses that state the weak in faith are those who haven't studied to show themselves approved. I know there are some in Romans concerning the weaker brother, but cannot see how that relates to your quote above.

Faith is not obedience.
God revealed himself in and through Jesus.


Jesus said the holy spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being unbelief - no faith in Jesus.
He did not say convict the world of disobedience.
Jesus died for the world and it's disobedience aka sin.

It is a sin to create images of God after the likeness of man. It is a sin to create Holy Days while rejecting God's Instructions.

People who did these things in the past were deceived and thought it was alright to "practice" such things believing that God would protect them anyway. But they were destroyed in the wilderness as an example to not do as they did.

Jesus gave us this exact example in Matt. 7, 23.

Had these believers checked themselves with the "Mirror" James speaks of, or the test 1 John gave us, they would have been able to identify their own wickedness and repented of it.

But because they refused to Glorify God with honor and obedience, their deceit remained and when they woke up, they realized where they were.


Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits(Works) ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Is it God's Will that we create images of God after the likeness of man? Is it God's Will that we reject God's Sabbath He created for man and create our own? Is it God's Will that we create our own High Days, our own Righteousness, and reject God's instructions?

The answer to all the questions is a resounding NO! Yet "MANY" who come in Christ's name preach and do exactly these things.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

In other words, after they wake up and saw Abraham a far off, and saw the Lake of Fire and understood what is going on they say.

Hey Jesus, wait a minute, don't you know who we are? Don't you know all the things we did in your name, the handsome male model we created and placed your name on, the great High Days we created that the Whole world observes. Can't you see all the Huge Churches we built and all the poor people we helped, all in Your Name.


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So yes, I know you don't believe obedience is important, and that traditions of man are OK as long as we place Jesus' name on them.

but the Bible, yours and mine, teaches that obedience to God is the very "Fruit" that defines our faith.

"(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Matt. 7: 23 confirms this teaching.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Like those in Matt. 7:23.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Certainly the believers in Matt. 7:23 forgot what manner of people they were.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

But what about traditions of religious man?

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Had those Believers in Matt. 7:23 listened to God and obeyed Him instead of their own righteousness or their own religious traditions, maybe Jesus would have said something differently.

" Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

 

Nehemiah6

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Jul 18, 2017
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Sorry I missed this, yes I believe the "weak in faith" are those who haven't "studied to show themselves approved" yet.
There is a difference between "weak in faith" and "weak in THE FAITH". "The faith" is the entire body of Christian doctrine, and some Christians are weak in this either because they haven't studied the Scriptures or they have not believed what is written. During Paul's time there were many converted Jews who were still trying to cling to the Law of Moses because they had not fully grasped Christian truth and the meaning of the New Covenant. So they had problems regarding matters such as dietary laws, circumcision, etc. Today, there are other issues.
 

Studyman

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Oct 11, 2017
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Faith is more than knowing, One can know the Bible inside and out. And hae no faith. Isreal proved this
Beautiful EG,

Something we can agree on. Israel knew the Word, but chose to reject it and create their own righteousness instead.

Just like Paul teaches.

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Good post EG.
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Please post bible verses that state the weak in faith are those who haven't studied to show themselves approved. I know there are some in Romans concerning the weaker brother, but cannot see how that relates to your quote above.

Faith is not obedience.
God revealed himself in and through Jesus.





It is a sin to create images of God after the likeness of man. It is a sin to create Holy Days while rejecting God's Instructions.

People who did these things in the past were deceived and thought it was alright to "practice" such things believing that God would protect them anyway. But they were destroyed in the wilderness as an example to not do as they did.

Jesus gave us this exact example in Matt. 7, 23.

Had these believers checked themselves with the "Mirror" James speaks of, or the test 1 John gave us, they would have been able to identify their own wickedness and repented of it.

But because they refused to Glorify God with honor and obedience, their deceit remained and when they woke up, they realized where they were.


Matt. 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits(Works) ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Is it God's Will that we create images of God after the likeness of man? Is it God's Will that we reject God's Sabbath He created for man and create our own? Is it God's Will that we create our own High Days, our own Righteousness, and reject God's instructions?

The answer to all the questions is a resounding NO! Yet "MANY" who come in Christ's name preach and do exactly these things.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

In other words, after they wake up and saw Abraham a far off, and saw the Lake of Fire and understood what is going on they say.

Hey Jesus, wait a minute, don't you know who we are? Don't you know all the things we did in your name, the handsome male model we created and placed your name on, the great High Days we created that the Whole world observes. Can't you see all the Huge Churches we built and all the poor people we helped, all in Your Name.


23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So yes, I know you don't believe obedience is important, and that traditions of man are OK as long as we place Jesus' name on them.

but the Bible, yours and mine, teaches that obedience to God is the very "Fruit" that defines our faith.

"(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified."

Matt. 7: 23 confirms this teaching.

James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

Like those in Matt. 7:23.

23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.

Certainly the believers in Matt. 7:23 forgot what manner of people they were.

25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

But what about traditions of religious man?

1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Had those Believers in Matt. 7:23 listened to God and obeyed Him instead of their own righteousness or their own religious traditions, maybe Jesus would have said something differently.

" Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

And your point is?

Oh I see it now.
To post a lot of Bible verses that have nothing to do with my question.
Once again we see "depart from me workers of iniquity" your constant go to verse. Even when it's been addressed.
Along with the rest of the verses you post above.

You false accuser.
How dare you accuse me of

So yes, I know you don't believe obedience is important, and that traditions of man are OK as long as we place Jesus' name on them
Post quotes where I have said that.
Everyone on here who knows me would tell you that I uphold obedience. And we grow in it as a result of faith.
God working in us as he sees fit to release us more into the image of Jesus.


I said obedience follows faith in response to your ridiculous post.

I noticed recently that there have been able few of my posts engaging with you that you have chosen to ignore.

Do me a favour and not respond to this one.

You have something against me and I have no reason why.

But you have now alienated me, with your slander and false accusation.
I'm truly pissed off with you, and believe me that takes a lot.
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
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And your point is?

Oh I see it now.
To post a lot of Bible verses that have nothing to do with my question.
Once again we see "depart from me workers of iniquity" your constant go to verse. Even when it's been addressed.
Along with the rest of the verses you post above.

You false accuser.
How dare you accuse me of



Post quotes where I have said that.
Everyone on here who knows me would tell you that I uphold obedience. And we grow in it as a result of faith.
God working in us as he sees fit to release us more into the image of Jesus.


I said obedience follows faith in response to your ridiculous post.

I noticed recently that there have been able few of my posts engaging with you that you have chosen to ignore.

Do me a favour and not respond to this one.

You have something against me and I have no reason why.

But you have now alienated me, with your slander and false accusation.
I'm truly pissed off with you, and believe me that takes a lot.
I have nothing against you, just the opposite actually.

I have left no stone unturned when speaking with you. I have left nothing on the table in the hopes that you might see what Jesus warned about so many times. I have always known you would either look into the points of my post and consider, or reject them outright.

You said "Faith is not obedience"

I replied that people who create images of God in the likeness of man, who create their own High Days, do not have obedience, therefore, how can they be any different that those Jesus warned us about in Matt. 23?

Those "believers" claimed to have Faith, just as you and I do. Yet, they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own traditions." and it was for their " practicing Lawless works" that Jesus rejected them, and their "Fruits" Jesus said we would know them by, that is how we know they had no faith. They had "works" just not obedient works.

I believe you don't think obedience is important because in my eyes, you have said many times in many different ways that "Faith is not obedience".

You say in another breath that obedience is the result of true faith. Yet refuse to even discuss all the mainstream traditions of todays churches which openly "Transgress the Commandments of God be their man made traditions", all the while claiming, as did the "MANY" Jesus spoke of in Matt. 23., to have Faith in Jesus.

You can get all indignant and put your words on me if you want, it is a popular tactic for many. But I responded honestly and sincerely to a comment you chose to make on a thread I started.

I have nothing against you personally, just the opposite, but I refuse to ignore the elephant in the Room where mainstream traditions and doctrines Jesus warned over and over about are concerned.

I'm sorry you are so pissed at me, but my words and comments were made in true Love of the Brethren.
 

lightbearer

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Jun 17, 2017
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Jesus said the holy spirit must come to convict the world of its sin, that sin being unbelief - no faith in Jesus.
He did not say convict the world of disobedience.
.
Please show me the text to which you derive this statement from.
 

BillG

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Feb 15, 2017
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Please show me the text to which you derive this statement from.

John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. 8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

There you go
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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I have nothing against you, just the opposite actually.

I have left no stone unturned when speaking with you. I have left nothing on the table in the hopes that you might see what Jesus warned about so many times. I have always known you would either look into the points of my post and consider, or reject them outright.

You said "Faith is not obedience"

I replied that people who create images of God in the likeness of man, who create their own High Days, do not have obedience, therefore, how can they be any different that those Jesus warned us about in Matt. 23?

Those "believers" claimed to have Faith, just as you and I do. Yet, they "Transgressed the Commandments of God by their own traditions." and it was for their " practicing Lawless works" that Jesus rejected them, and their "Fruits" Jesus said we would know them by, that is how we know they had no faith. They had "works" just not obedient works.

I believe you don't think obedience is important because in my eyes, you have said many times in many different ways that "Faith is not obedience".

You say in another breath that obedience is the result of true faith. Yet refuse to even discuss all the mainstream traditions of todays churches which openly "Transgress the Commandments of God be their man made traditions", all the while claiming, as did the "MANY" Jesus spoke of in Matt. 23., to have Faith in Jesus.

You can get all indignant and put your words on me if you want, it is a popular tactic for many. But I responded honestly and sincerely to a comment you chose to make on a thread I started.

I have nothing against you personally, just the opposite, but I refuse to ignore the elephant in the Room where mainstream traditions and doctrines Jesus warned over and over about are concerned.

I'm sorry you are so pissed at me, but my words and comments were made in true Love of the Brethren.
Yes because I don't see faith as obedience as such. I think of obedience as being and doing what Jesus has asked me to.
I have never ever said you do not have to be obedient.
You look at any post on any thread that I have made when it comes to our faith/walk I have always maintained that God wants us to be obedient.

I said the other day in one thread that obedience can actually increase our faith.

Anyway I will leave you and your thread alone.
 
Jun 5, 2017
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Yes because I don't see faith as obedience as such. I think of obedience as being and doing what Jesus has asked me to.
I have never ever said you do not have to be obedient.
You look at any post on any thread that I have made when it comes to our faith/walk I have always maintained that God wants us to be obedient.

I said the other day in one thread that obedience can actually increase our faith.

Anyway I will leave you and your thread alone.
Hello Bill, you are correct of course Faith is not obedience. Obedience is the FRUIT of FAITH that works by LOVE to those that walk in God's Spirit.
 

BillG

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To believe, trust, out of which actions (obedience) will follow.

The basic meaning of the Greek word pisteuo as used in Romans 5:1

Romans 5:1
Chapter 5
Faith Triumphs in Trouble
1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Then we find another word for faith in Romans 5:2

Pistis


conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith...

So as for me my obedience did not bring me to faith, how could it?
I was obedient to the calling of the Holy Spirit to repent of my sin of unbelief in Jesus.
And as a result I want to walk the way he has called me to walk.

Hope that answers your question.
 

BillG

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In a sense also I see faith as a state of being in that leads to doing.
So like in Christ we do all things.

Does that make sense?
If I wasn't in Christ I wouldn't do.
Also when we see people wander off the path will stop obeying as well. Even then God as he did with Israel

Jeremiah 29:11-14
11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. 14 I will be found by you, says the Lord, and I will bring you back from your captivity; I will gather you from all the nations and from all the places where I have driven you, says the Lord, and I will bring you to the place from which I cause you to be carried away captive.
 

lightbearer

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Hebrews 11:1
Chapter 11
By Faith We Understand
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
It is a nice verse. I like the word expect rather than hope.
Do you have a Strong's Concordance? The lexicon in it has it define like this.

G1679 ἐλπίζω elpizo (el-pid'-zo) v.
1. to expect or confide

When I seen that in the Strong's years ago; from that point on when I seen the word hope in my KJV Bible I understood it to mean expect. Changed my perspective a lot.

Anyway; As you know Faith is a noun. A state of being. The BDAG lexicon has it defined like this, "state of believing on the basis of the reliability of the one trusted".

With that being understood and what you shared. There is other verses that give even more insight on what faith is. Please bear with me.

Rom. 10:1-4 says, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
(Rom 10:1-4 KJV)

So Israel had not submitted themselves to the righteousness which is of GOD. Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; (Which is Faith) As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone (Which is Christ; Faith) and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
(Rom 9:32-33 KJV)

Rom 10:4 says, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Christ is also a noun; which is a state of being. But in this instance Christ is Jesus. But interestingly enough Jesus is not a normal Being. He among other things is the Rock of offense, Stone of stumbling; the Faith prophesied by Isaiah 8:14 and 28:16. If one is paying attention Paul is also calling Jesus YEHOVAH. Because YEHOVAH is the subject of Isaiah 8:14.

Anyway Romans 10:4 says, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

If we keep reading and keep everything in Context we see that Christ, JEHOVAH, the Stone of Stumbling, the Faith is given to us.

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ (Yehovah; Faith; the Word) down from above) Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ (Yehovah; Faith, the Word) again from the dead.) But what saith it? The Word (Yehovah; Christ, Faith) is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the Word of faith, which we preach;
(Rom 10:6-8 KJV)

So if we keep everything in Isaiah and Romans in Context.
We see that Christ, Yehovah, Faith; the Word is here in our hearts and in our mouths. And this Faith; Is The word (utterance; something spoken) of faith in which we preach. In other words Paul is saying, This is what we means when we say faith.

Pretty cool huh?

But wait; that is not everything. Romans 10:4-6 as you probably know is also a quote from the Old Testament. This time Paul is quoting Deut 30:11-14.

We will start in verse 10 to keep everything in context.The Spirit saith,
If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

For this commandment which I command thee this day,

What commandment? The one HE just spoke.

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.


This is that which
is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off. It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it? Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?" But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

So the Commandment, hearkening unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, turning unto the LORD thy God with all our heart, and with all our soul is the word that is nigh us; in our hearts and in our mouths that we do it. That is the Faith in which we speak.

This is being spoken in the present tense. Which means if we are looking at Isaiah, Deut., and Romans keeping everything in context, this FAITH, this voice of the LORD YEHOVAH GOD; CHRIST; THE WORD;
HIS COMMANDMENTS AND HIS STATUTES WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW are in our hearts and in our mouths (TRUE FAITH) that we do it; was available then, even as it is now!

(Deu 30:10-15 KJV)