Paul's thorn in the flesh

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Aug 8, 2017
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#1
What was the "thorn in the flesh" to which Paul makes reference in 2 Corinthians 12:7-9?


To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
—NIV
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
372
0
#2
2 Corinthians 12:7

New International Version
or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

New Living Translation
even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.

English Standard Version
So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Berean Study Bible
or with these surpassingly great revelations. So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

Berean Literal Bible
and the surpassingness of the revelations. Therefore, that I should not become conceited, a thorn in my flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, that he might buffet me, so that I should not become conceited.

New American Standard Bible
Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself!

King James Bible
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

according to Paul he had a demon:

32 [e] angelos ἄγγελος a messenger N-NMS
4567 [e] Satana Σατανᾶ, of Satan, N-GMS
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
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#3
People/person . . . if we look at some previous usages of "thorn", Num. 33:55; Joshua 23:13; Judges 2:3. Having to do with Paul's weakness (infirmities), reproaches, necessities, persecutions - Satan using people to subvert Paul's message.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,380
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#4
People/person . . . if we look at some previous usages of "thorn", Num. 33:55; Joshua 23:13; Judges 2:3. Having to do with Paul's weakness (infirmities), reproaches, necessities, persecutions - Satan using people to subvert Paul's message.
Hello Peacefulbeliever,

Since it is the context that defines subject, Paul's thorn is mentioned right in the verse, which was a "messenger of Satan" i.e. an demonic being to buffet him to keep Paul from becoming conceited because of the revelations and visions that he had received. The word "kolaphizó" translated "buffet" means to strike with the knuckles. The idea is striking with something sharp and painful, sticking deeply in the flesh so it remains there."

There is another example this when a tormenting spirit was sent from God upon king Saul in 1 Sam.18:10
 

Yonah

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2014
1,074
103
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#5
This subject is a much debated one, there are many different suppositions, however I agree with Ahwatukee.
There is also another aspect of this: it clearly illustrates that the Almighty sets the bounds for satan, and uses his hatred of everything He loves to turn around and be used for mans character reform, so the very means by which the enemy seeks to torment or destroy, God uses to bring about full restoration and growth, if we trust Him enough to yield fully to his will knowing He always works for our good. (Rom. 8:28)
 
Sep 3, 2016
6,337
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#6
Some Believers, immature in the Word, have the idea that anyone who falls is weak. That is not necessarily so! The Truth is, if the Lord allowed the pressure to be applied to most, as He did David or Paul, or Peter for that matter, or a host of others, they would not only fall, but be totally destroyed in the process. God allows Satan certain latitude according to the particular Call on the individual's life, which will, most of the time, necessitate a certain spiritual maturity. None of this is any excuse for failure, but, nevertheless, the situation is never as simple as it seems, or some people make it out to be. The only experts on these battles are those who have never fought them.

What God would do with Moses was not learned in the palaces of Egypt, but was learned at "the backside of the desert." Forty years in the desert was needed to humble (Moses) the strength of the "flesh" and destroy its hope; the possible King of Egypt was now an obscure shepherd.

There are four test in the Book of James 1.
Test of Trials - Vicissitudes of life.
Test of Temptations - Solicitation to do evil that comes from the pull of sin, the world, the flesh, and the Devil.
Test of Truth - The Word of God.
Test of the Tongue - The words we stay and the words we write.

The goal is for Christlikeness (James 1:2-4). Job said, "After I have been refined by fire I will come forth as Gold (Job 23:10). Isaiah 48:10 NLT, " I have refined you, but not as silver is refined. Rather, I have refined you in the furnace of suffering." Psalm 105:19 NLT, "
Until the time came to fulfill his dreams,[SUP][a][/SUP]the Lord tested Joseph’s character. This is what strengthens our Faith in Christ and Him Crucified (Romans 8:2 - Gal. 2:20-21). Those who humble themselves will be exalted (Matthew 23:12).
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
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#7
What was the "thorn in the flesh" to which Paul makes reference in 2 Corinthians 12:7-9?


To keep me from becoming conceited because of these surpassingly great revelations, there was given me a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me. Three times I pleaded with the Lord to take it away from me. But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
—NIV
What is your question or point?
 
Feb 21, 2012
3,794
199
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#8
Hello Peacefulbeliever,

Since it is the context that defines subject, Paul's thorn is mentioned right in the verse, which was a "messenger of Satan" i.e. an demonic being to buffet him to keep Paul from becoming conceited because of the revelations and visions that he had received. The word "kolaphizó" translated "buffet" means to strike with the knuckles. The idea is striking with something sharp and painful, sticking deeply in the flesh so it remains there."
There is another example this when a tormenting spirit was sent from God upon king Saul in 1 Sam.18:10
I respect your position - that's just not how I see it.

To buffet also means to maltreat, treat with violence and contumely [insolent or insulting language or treatment].


"People" are sometimes influenced by Satan and can be thorns in our flesh preventing us or trying to hinder us. A messenger is: a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, and angel, or a messenger from God . . . and in this context I believe it just means "one who is sent". Throughout Chapters 10-13, Paul speaks of (10:2) "some [people] who think we live by the standards of this world" - in 11:13 he mentions "false apostles" in Corinth who spoke against Paul and boasted of their own spirituality.

In the remote context: 2 Cor. 10:11, 12 Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.
2 Cor. 11:4,5 For is someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus which we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. But I do not thing I am in the least inferior to those "super apostles". (NIV)
2 Cor. 11:12-15 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (NIV) Paul spends much time making his point as to how the Lord had worked in him and given him authority - He calls this "boasting" and his "boasting" is in contrast to the boasting of his opponents.

Also, one of the keys to understanding words used in scripture is to look at how they were used before.
Numbers 33:55 But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell [same usage in Judges 2:3]
Joshua 23:13 Know for certain that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the LORD your God has given you.
Ezekiel 2:6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. (also Ezekiel 28:24)

It is clear from the above that God uses "thorn" sometimes to refer to people and, of course, sometimes thorn just means "thorn" :) - so, the way I see it: Paul's "thorn in the flesh" were the many human "messengers" that Satan sent against him to stop him from making known the gospel of Christ.
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#9
Hello Peacefulbeliever,

Since it is the context that defines subject, Paul's thorn is mentioned right in the verse, which was a "messenger of Satan" i.e. an demonic being to buffet him to keep Paul from becoming conceited because of the revelations and visions that he had received. The word "kolaphizó" translated "buffet" means to strike with the knuckles. The idea is striking with something sharp and painful, sticking deeply in the flesh so it remains there."

There is another example this when a tormenting spirit was sent from God upon king Saul in 1 Sam.18:10
Paul actually said somewhere in there "...lest i become conceited..."
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#10
Those that argue God puts sickness on people love Pauls thorn and the verses suggesting he had eyesight issues.

Lets play along and agree.

1) that involves using this obscure " maybe" to void 50 or so solid healing verses.
2) even if they had a point nobody has done or wrote on pauls level of revelation.

...practically anihilating any traction that God puts sickness on people
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#11
I respect your position - that's just not how I see it.

To buffet also means to maltreat, treat with violence and contumely [insolent or insulting language or treatment].


"People" are sometimes influenced by Satan and can be thorns in our flesh preventing us or trying to hinder us. A messenger is: a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, and angel, or a messenger from God . . . and in this context I believe it just means "one who is sent". Throughout Chapters 10-13, Paul speaks of (10:2) "some [people] who think we live by the standards of this world" - in 11:13 he mentions "false apostles" in Corinth who spoke against Paul and boasted of their own spirituality.

In the remote context: 2 Cor. 10:11, 12 Such people should realize that what we are in our letters when we are absent, we will be in our actions when we are present.
2 Cor. 11:4,5 For is someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus which we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. But I do not thing I am in the least inferior to those "super apostles". (NIV)
2 Cor. 11:12-15 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve. (NIV) Paul spends much time making his point as to how the Lord had worked in him and given him authority - He calls this "boasting" and his "boasting" is in contrast to the boasting of his opponents.

Also, one of the keys to understanding words used in scripture is to look at how they were used before.
Numbers 33:55 But if you do not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you, then it shall be that those whom you let remain shall be irritants in your eyes and thorns in your sides, and they shall harass you in the land where you dwell [same usage in Judges 2:3]
Joshua 23:13 Know for certain that the LORD your God will no longer drive out these nations from before you. But they shall be snares and traps to you, and scourges on your sides and thorns in your eyes, until you perish from this good land which the LORD your God has given you.
Ezekiel 2:6 And thou, son of man, be not afraid of them, neither be afraid of their words, though briers and thorns be with thee, and thou dost dwell among scorpions: be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house. (also Ezekiel 28:24)

It is clear from the above that God uses "thorn" sometimes to refer to people and, of course, sometimes thorn just means "thorn" :) - so, the way I see it: Paul's "thorn in the flesh" were the many human "messengers" that Satan sent against him to stop him from making known the gospel of Christ.
I think you are both right.
Both
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,624
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#12
I wonder, then, why he said that he would "boast in his weakness"..... If God allowed a "demon" to attack Paul, it certainly would not mean that Paul had been/was "weak"... If this was some sort of demon, then it would have been used to keep him from becoming "proud" of his being chosen to be an apostle of Jesus. This would not indicate an ongoing "weakness" in Paul, that he would boast about, but rather a temptation that he would have been subject to.

Why would he boast that he was subject to temptation?

I see this as Paul having a physical infirmity of some sort, which somehow hindered his work.... he asked God to remove the infirmity, and God basically said "no".. so Paul said "since God has told me my infirmity will not prevent me from carrying out my mission, I will BOAST that even though I am somehow infirm, God still gives me the ability to do His work"... The whole "messenger of Satan" reference would be that, since all evil and pain in this life is a direct result of Satan, this infirmity was a messenger of Satan to try to prevent Paul from carrying out his role as an apostle. The temptation to say "I just can't do all of those things, because of this infirmity" would have been pretty great.. but Paul overcame that temptation.

Just my take on it....
 

Hizikyah

Senior Member
Aug 25, 2013
11,634
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#13
I wonder, then, why he said that he would "boast in his weakness"..... If God allowed a "demon" to attack Paul, it certainly would not mean that Paul had been/was "weak"... If this was some sort of demon, then it would have been used to keep him from becoming "proud" of his being chosen to be an apostle of Jesus. This would not indicate an ongoing "weakness" in Paul, that he would boast about, but rather a temptation that he would have been subject to.

Why would he boast that he was subject to temptation?

I see this as Paul having a physical infirmity of some sort, which somehow hindered his work.... he asked God to remove the infirmity, and God basically said "no".. so Paul said "since God has told me my infirmity will not prevent me from carrying out my mission, I will BOAST that even though I am somehow infirm, God still gives me the ability to do His work"... The whole "messenger of Satan" reference would be that, since all evil and pain in this life is a direct result of Satan, this infirmity was a messenger of Satan to try to prevent Paul from carrying out his role as an apostle. The temptation to say "I just can't do all of those things, because of this infirmity" would have been pretty great.. but Paul overcame that temptation.

Just my take on it....
it is definitly a literal being:

32 [e] angelos ἄγγελος a messenger N-NMS

it could be a human or spiritual being, but in any case it is a literal being.

G32 ἄγγελος aggelos (an'-ğe-los) n.
1. a messenger.
2. (especially) an “angel” of God.
3. (of evil, Satan) a demon.
4. (by implication) a person carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a servant (a disciple, pastor, elder, prophet, etc.).
5. (also, by implication) a thing or event carrying forth a message from God, i.e. a hardship (pestilence, wind, etc.), or an animal (donkey, locusts, etc.).
[from aggello “to bring tidings” (possibly derived from G71)]
KJV: angel, messenger
Compare: G34
See also: G71
 
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heartofdavid

Guest
#14
When Pauls authority was questioned he referred to his beatings,stonings,shipwreck,etc.

IOW , The things we get attacked under is the very place we receive authority.

God said to Paul " i will show you what great things you must suffer for my namesake"

The word says " many are the afflictions of the righteous,but God is able to deliver them out of them ALL
 
H

heartofdavid

Guest
#15
There are several parallel dynamics.

"God scourges every son he receives"
"Correction ,although not pleasant for the moment,produces fruit meet for repentance"

"Put on the whole armor of God that ye may be able to stand against the strategies of the devil"

Once we divorce this world and enter ministry which is forward destiny the enemy steps up his resistence and attacks. Conversely the Holy Spirit also begins a work of separation involving DISCIPLINE.

PAULS dynamic is multifaceted
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,097
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#16
NO MAN knows what his thorn in the flesh was, because Scripture DOES NOT reveal this. I believe that it is intentionally kept secret because, in that way, we ALL can relate to the Scriptures teaching...........that Gods Grace is sufficient for ALL of us, and that in our weakness is He made Strong.

That way when working through us He does a good work the world will know that there has to be something/Someone working because they know that we ourselves are not capable of such a good work.

(my thoughts......that last part)

Do not let anyone tell you they know what Paul's thorn in the flesh was...........NO MAN KNOWS.
 
Aug 8, 2017
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#17
What is your question or point?
Im curious to know what it was. Was it an illness was it problems with his eyesight.
Maybe I'm trying to see what he was going through at the time idk.
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#18
2 Corinthians 12:7

New International Version
or because of these surpassingly great revelations. Therefore, in order to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

New Living Translation
even though I have received such wonderful revelations from God. So to keep me from becoming proud, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger from Satan to torment me and keep me from becoming proud.

English Standard Version
So to keep me from becoming conceited because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, a thorn was given me in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to harass me, to keep me from becoming conceited.

Berean Study Bible
or with these surpassingly great revelations. So to keep me from becoming conceited, I was given a thorn in my flesh, a messenger of Satan, to torment me.

Berean Literal Bible
and the surpassingness of the revelations. Therefore, that I should not become conceited, a thorn in my flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan, that he might buffet me, so that I should not become conceited.

New American Standard Bible
Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-- to keep me from exalting myself!

King James Bible
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

according to Paul he had a demon:

32 [e] angelos ἄγγελος a messenger N-NMS
4567 [e] Satana Σατανᾶ, of Satan, N-GMS
To me? This "appears" to be a "fail safe", and, for several reasons too!

1) Paul knows it's there! Satan knows it's there! Satan knows Paul knows! And IF Satan could? He would have most assuredly removed it/them/whatever.

2) God, knows the WHY, He left, or placed, it here! And Paul, after struggling again, and again, finally "takes the bull by the horns", so to speak, and relents to the Wisdom, of the Father, in regards to how "vain" a man, might become, WITHOUT "something" to continually struggle against! And, so "keeping Paul honest", so to speak.
3) Finally? God loves the persecution of "satan, and his cronies!", by His humble servants! I can picture God laughing in satan's face, in His mocking satan! "What do ya think about my humble servant Paul NOW?!?!!" "Oh?!!" "Well?...I'll just roll you around a little bit." "Whatta ya think about Paul HERE?!!??" etc. etc.

 

Dan58

Senior Member
Nov 13, 2013
1,991
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#19
I suspect Paul's thorn in his flesh was a physical impairment that interfered or hampered his work. Many suspect that it was poor eye sight, as do I. Its even thought that Paul dictated most of his letters to Luke, who transcribed them.

"Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first. And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me." (Galatians 4: 13-15)

And once Paul didn't use a scribe; "
Ye see how large a letter I have written unto you with mine own hand" (Galatians 6:11)

There was also an occasion when Paul gathered firewood and mistakenly picked up a snake (Acts 28:3). And another time Paul didn't recognize that it was the high priest who was talking to him (Acts 23:2-5). All this points to poor vision.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,624
1,381
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#20
Im curious to know what it was. Was it an illness was it problems with his eyesight.
Maybe I'm trying to see what he was going through at the time idk.
It seems highly likely that Paul had problems with his vision.... could have been some sort of macular degeneration, perhaps extreme myopia. He studied under Gamaliel, which seems to indicate that he had satisfactory vision for at least the early part of his life. That is simply speculation on my part, but the indication that he had some type of vision issues is scriptural.